DLP VS LCD - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 04-23-2001, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Recently I visited Magnolia Hi-Fi in Bellevue, WA and had an opportunity to see the DWIN Transvision DLP. I have to be honest, the first comment I made to the salesman (on the opening clip to Blues Bros II) was "I'm getting dizzy". The moire effect was definitely not only visible but very "effecting" on my stomach and mind. This was an interlaced dvd feeding the processing (Dwin) and projected on to a 100" Grayhawk (which by the way is an incredible screen). The effect that this had on my was not subtle and was going at the very get go. Now, I could probably get used to it by why would you want to? This technology has a way to go. Oh, and by the way I know everyone disses the Sony VWH10 but I have got to be honest. The Sony looks great on the Grayhaw with no visible screen door effect and excellent color brightness. There was not a very big difference between the two projectors (and when I say not very big I mean I think I liked the Sony better). And, incidentally this was an interlaced dvd straight into the Sony (via component input) no addtl processing required (internal). I'm not a novice and I still think that Sony is a great alternative!
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post #2 of 12 Old 04-23-2001, 06:32 PM
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From someone who is waiting for a DLP from DWIN, bad news.I guess I will go out and get Blues Brother II. Unfortunately, I cannot demo these units beforehand, so have to get them by mail, and check them out. I have to say, it is hard to believe a 11K projector has problems which make audience sick to their stomach!
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post #3 of 12 Old 04-24-2001, 02:23 PM
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You guys need to hang around the Forum for a few days and read the posts about driving digital projectors with a HTPC (Home Theater PC).

In brief, the "Moire" effects you complained about are the result of the inexpensive line doublers and scalers built into these projectors. I am immediately suspicious of any retailer that would demo these products in so sub-optimal a fashion.

In general, there are three ways to drive most such digital projectors:

Best: Drive the projector in the native display resolution of the panel(s) using the RGBHV inputs (usually a VGA/HD-15 connector, sometimes (5) BNCs).
The source could be either a DVD-ROM drive or an HDTV tuner card.

Better: Drive the projector with a progressive signal from a quality external line doubler (if the source is interlaced) or directly from a progressive output DVD player.

Worst: Drive the projector with an interlaced signal through the component video or S-video jacks, and use the internal doubler/scaler.

IMHO you should look for a dealer that can demo something other than the "Worst" scenario. Digital projectors are rapidly displacing the analog CRTs that used to own the marketplace, offering larger and brighter displays in rooms without total light control. However, as with most digital technology, the skills required to implement such a projector with the best possible results are not yet commonplace.

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post #4 of 12 Old 04-24-2001, 07:00 PM
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I have a Dwin Transvision in my house that I have been testing . Clearly it functions well with an htpc but with a moderately priced dvd player its scaling and line doubling isnt as good as an HTPC. I wish Dwin would make the projector available without its expensive processor so that those with a dvdo and htpc would not have to pay as much for it.
I think the Dwin is a fine projector but I dont mind the slight pixels of my Mitsubishi x300 because its color and clarity and brightness is better than the DWIN and its contrast is almost as good as the DWIN.
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post #5 of 12 Old 04-24-2001, 07:50 PM
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I thought the Dwin was suppose to be plug and play! Seems like a lot of money for a projector when you have to purchase a HTPC to get the most out of it - what gives? Let's have some comments from Dwin owners. I find it hard to believe that the onboard processing isn't as good as a progressive scan DVD player.

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post #6 of 12 Old 04-24-2001, 08:00 PM
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Gary,
I have been hanging around here for awhile! I have learned a tremendous amount from these boards. When I first contemplated HT, I went to the closest dealer 90 miles away, who asked what my budget was then proceeded to try to sell me what they had in their store (basically a Runco DLP,and having never before seen an HT digital projector, I thought it looked great!) that would add up to that budget. I thought that sounded fishy, and found AVS.
Anyway, I have an unfinished room for HT. I am a plug and play kind of guy...lots of this stuff goes right over my head. I was contemplating a JVC G15, but heard from dealer I work with that DWIN Transvision DLP was a great projector. Waiting to have it shipped to me so I can test it out on a wall.
From what I understand, the DWIN scaler is integral to the projector. I had not heard anything about a Moire problem with their integral scaler. But I have read that with sports etc. the DWIN falls flat. Is this where the Moire effect is coming in? Can HTPC be used with DWIN DLP? Thanks
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post #7 of 12 Old 04-24-2001, 09:39 PM
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The vast majority, if not almost all, of the prior posts I have read re the Dwin are very favorable. Indeed, separate from the posts here on the forum, I've heard of at least two people say that the picture from the Dwin is awesome. Also, Alan's initial reviews, as you might recall, were also extremely favorable. I know Alan sells these things, but it's hard to believe it's as bad as this thread suggests. In fact, few people seem to have had the problems reported in the initial post. It's almost like we're talking about two different projectors. I don't know what the explanation is, but it is hard to believe that it's just explained by some people being more sensitive to certain types of effects or artifacts. I wonder if it is a setup issue or something. I would also suggest that those who are waiting for the Dwin not panic; as something here does not make sense.
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post #8 of 12 Old 04-25-2001, 10:32 AM
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It's possible the projector was not tweeked, simply used as-is from th box the factory put it in. It is also possible that both the Transvision external scaler and the projector internal scaler were being used, which is usually associated with the "crawly" artifacts (which I am guessing is what was being described). Finally, there is the possibility that whatever refresh rate was being output by the external scaler was not the 60Hz of the interlaced source, or matched to the RPM of the DLP color wheel. Or the color wheel may not be phased properly, or something else we haven't considered.

The important point is that we know from knowledgeable Forum members like Alan that the Dwin Transvision DLP is a very good projector, assuming you have a fault-free, properly setup unit. The fact that it was displayed and demo'd in so sub-optimal a fashion is also a reliable indication that the particular dealer involved would not provide the necessary level of technical support needed to acheive the best results with this particular projector. I would suggest that Mark continue his quest for a demo of a properly setup projector, and also attempt to see as many different models and projector technologies as possible. Perhaps there are other Forum members who live around that part of Washington who could assist in this quest - I've demo'd my own modest HTPC and projector for neighbors and co-workers.

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post #9 of 12 Old 04-25-2001, 10:54 AM
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Let me add another opinion here - I saw the EXACT same Dwin projector that Mark saw in Bellevue, Washington.

I DID NOT see any of the problems he is describing. I watched The Fifth Element and the picture looked very good. Great colors, good contrast, minimal artifacts,(sure there were a few), and decent black level,(for a digital projector). I should point out I am not prone to seeing the DLP "rainbow" effect.

IMHO this is the best single chip DLP on the market today. Am I going to buy one? No. I don't have $13k to spend on a projector so I will have to wait until more "affordable" projectors are available. But I would not fault someone for buying the Dwin. Reed.
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post #10 of 12 Old 04-25-2001, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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DWIN was setup by the DWIN rep and tweaked by same. Artifacts are not the issue here. Color wheel spinning is.
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post #11 of 12 Old 04-25-2001, 04:08 PM
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Mark, you may be one of the minority of folks who are excessively sensitive to the rainbow effect of the 1-chip DLP. I have never seen such but I do not doubt that it is all-too-visible for other people.

Unfortunately this means that you either need to buy a CRT, a DiLA, an LCD, or a 3-chip DLP with no color wheel, for lots more money. Once you have done so, however, no one in the audience will ever complain. One of my coworkers purchased and setup an XGA 1-chip DLP (Compaq MP1800) and was completely happy for 22 whole hours before discovering his spouse was extremely sensitive to the rainbow effect. He now owns an LCD projector which is not quite as good - to his own eyes - but his wife can view movies with him.

While a properly functioning and setup projector is essential, there are other factors to consider. For example many progressive-scan DVD players expect to be outputting to HDTVs not projectors - they may not have the 3/2 pulldown algorithym implemented, or may have the fixed 60Hz refresh of a TV, not the higher refresh rates desireable for a multisync display - meaning in the case of a 1-chip DLP, a variable speed color wheel. Again I hearken back to the dealer - even if the DWIN rep tweeked the projector, the dealer could be driving it with the wrong source - and perhaps a different source for the two customers, one who saw defects and one who didn't.

Gary

[This message has been edited by Gary McCoy (edited 04-25-2001).]

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post #12 of 12 Old 04-25-2001, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I wasn't clear on this issue. The DWIN was hooked up to the Processor that it is sold with (Transvision?). This is not a "cheap" processor. My eyes were not lying to me, there is a significant problem w/ 1 chip DLP's. I agree that the image is good but for the money???I would either buy the Sony ($5,500 thru Medical Video System) and save the dough/time when the 3-chippers become available.
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