New PLV-60 Based Projector - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 04-25-2001, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I was just on the phone with my rep from Studio Experience, who I had called asking if he could get me a price on a PLV-60...

It seems that Studio Experience is in progress of OEMing the PLV-60, putting it in a matte white case, and getting it Class B certified for home use. They're in the certification process right now, and the projector will be available shortly after that wraps up... which according to them should be very soon.

Here's what really got my attention, though... 30 days unconditional replacement policy... so if you get one and it's got dead pixels, it'll be replaced (I specifically asked about it).

Of course, I want one RIGHT NOW. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I'd already decided to get rid of my cd555m (lp350) and move to a new projector, and had thought I would probably go with the PLV-60, but I think I'm going to wait and go with the Studio Experience unit.

Anyone have any interest in getting a power buy together? I wasn't able to get any pricing yet, but I'm sure they'll put together a great deal.

-Mike



[This message has been edited by mhamel (edited 04-25-2001).]
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post #2 of 30 Old 04-26-2001, 07:37 AM
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This is great news!
Kudos to Studio Experience!

Isn't this exactly what I was asking about last week that all the dealers found "impossible"?

You should post about this aggressively, because a warranty and class B cert. are real HUGE perks for potential buyers, and there are MANY for this unit.

Good job

dg

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post #3 of 30 Old 04-26-2001, 08:00 AM
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mhamel,
What is class b certification? and how is that a plus to a potential buyer? I am on the list for a plv-60, but if there is any other difference besides the white case please let us know. also is there contrast ratio 500:1 or is it higher?
Thanks,
Mike

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post #4 of 30 Old 04-26-2001, 10:15 AM
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Actually, I'd like to see them go beyond this and actually test the projectors before being shipped. Shipping this stuff around is dicey at best, particularly given the thread about FedEx (non) insurance, insurance. Why not find out if there is a problem BEFORE the unit is shipped? The best approach here is to minimize the chance the projector is going to have to be shipped back. I'd be very happy to pay a reasonable charge for this service and I'll bet I'm not alone.

Would Studio Experience also consider doing same for the XP-21N?

I am assuming by the way that AVS couldn't provide this same service. If they can, I think we at least owe it to them to give first right of refusal. If they are OK with it, Studio Experience from all appearances would be a good supplier--they have a very good reputation.

Dan

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post #5 of 30 Old 04-26-2001, 11:20 AM
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Class B is approved for the consumer as opposed to commercial. There are more stringent requirements for fire and electrical safety. The machine itself should be the same
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post #6 of 30 Old 04-26-2001, 12:56 PM
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What are the details of this projector?

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #7 of 30 Old 04-26-2001, 04:49 PM
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Dan-
Testing the projectors is a great idea. I would love to have a highly trained, detailed orientated technician with an excellent eye test each projector before it goes out. I know Studio Experience does not have extra people working who are not already fully utilized so this would involve creating a new position. How much should someone's annual salary be that would do such testing and would you and other purchasers of HT units be willing to pay part of that salary as an add on to the dealer cost of your projector?
Lenny Eckian

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post #8 of 30 Old 04-26-2001, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't many more details yet, but I'll post anything I do get here as soon as I get it.

I believe the class B certification has additional shielding against electrical interference (and probably more than that, but that's just a guess at this point). It does mean, though, that it is certified for home use, which is a good thing.

I'm not sure about pre-testing the projectors... That's probably something to take up with them directly. Studio Experience will also be offering warranty service through their own service department, which usually has pretty good turnaround.

Dan - post it around anywhere you'd like, or e-mail me suggestions and I'll post it. If there is going to be a power buy, I'd love to get enough people together on this to get an absolutely killer deal on this unit.

Besides, I'm getting married in 9 days... I'm probably going to end up living in the shed with my new projector as it is (since I just bought the last one 6 months ago)... so the better the deal we can put together, the less time I spend bunking with the lawnmower. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

-Mike


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post #9 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 07:39 AM
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Lenny,
Though your questions (to the other Dan) are valid, honestly I am sick of hearing what I see as either the "dealer-perspective" or the "defeated consumer perspective" of automatically giving up what seem to be reasonable demands on behalf of HT customers, just because it is not the "status quo" that the manufactureers fed business buyers before.

I point to your comments of 4/15/01, when I asked about a dead-pixel free product be sold to the HT market.

"6k means nothing to a behemoth like Sanyo and if they can't sell to the perfectionists here there are plenty more customers who aren't as demanding. If you don't feel the technology offered meets your needs or expectations why are trying to force it too. "

Now in this thread we hear Studio Experience may step up to the plate for us "perfectionists". Someone then inquires about pre inspection of units, and here you are again, raining on our parade...

What's the deal, why so negative?
Regardless of your motivations, the conservative approach is never going to get the best product for us consumers... only allow dealers and manufacturers to make more money, or provide products to a lower quality standard. Who does that benefit other than the fat cats?

Perhaps you are trying to cast a "realistic" perspective on our "idealistic musings" about flaw free products, or superior service, but I ask what purpose your comments serve,
ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that expectations you and others have dismissed appear to be possible for SOME dealers to meet.

dg
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post #10 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 08:37 AM
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Dan G-
In economics I learned there is no such thing as a free lunch. When you want your car painted you can go to Maaco for $300. or you can go to a custom body shop and spend $2000. I would go to Maaco if I wasn't too fussy and go to the custom shop if I desired a superior job. If you are asking for something, like perfection for example, it is reasonable to expect to pay for it. I would gladly pay an extra $100-150 to have my new projector inspected and tested according to agreed upon criteria by a qualified technician. I am not raining on anyone's parade, if you perceive it that way that is something for you to look at within yourself.
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post #11 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 08:57 AM
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Gotcha-
no static.
I would just say that instead of asuming they already provide adequate service and what we are asking for is "premium" service or requires a premium to be paid, why not consider that maybe what we are asking for is "normal HT service" from a company used to giving "normal business service" which I would think is "inferior HT service".

The heart of my thoughts are rooted in economics.
Trust me- you are already getting yanked an extra coupla bills for the novelty of the 16:9 panel here. Maybe Sanyo gets it all, but I bet the dealers get a bit too (if they take a % markup on an inflated retail for example). They already assessed you a "premuim", so lets not let them take provision of HT level service (even if never before done by anotehr manufacturer or dealer, but instead it is the level we ideally want) for granted, or let them assume it allows for yet another price premium.

However, if anyone will prvode these services and will have to charge a premium, I still encourage people to let us know here, as it really provides a service to consumers.

dg
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post #12 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 02:28 PM
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Just an FYI. The Sanyo PLV-60 has a dealer cost of $5,995.00. The largest dealers have the option of a 10 or 20 unit buy in, which reduces the cost approximately $100 and $150 respectively. That gives the dealers a best case scenario cost of $5,845.00.

Now I'll leave it up to you guys to calculate a reasonable profit margin for dealers, taking into account the very slim chance of recurring revenues like a corporate account. Also take into account the aggravation of having to deal with first time HT users who don't know the difference between a dead pixel and dust. Also take into account those who want the dealers to prescreen every projector, even though they still call back complaining about dead pixels which are in fact dust. Also take into account those that have no problem returning unit after unit until they find one that's to their liking.

Many have posted here about the outrageous pricing on HT specific projectors which quite often aren't even as good as a data projector. Of course you have to compare apples to apples, not a VT540 to a $20k DILA. Given that, equally spec'd projectors cost the same to produce, but sell for a large difference just for the service and support that so many HT users want or need.

I know I'm rambling, but one last thing. Dust on a panel is NOT Sanyo specific, it's LCD panels in general. That would include NEC, Sony, Epson, Toshiba, etc, etc.

Please post what you think is a reasonable profit margin taking into account everything stated above, and the fact that most HT users aren't as rich as others and usually try to get a better price via the well known "Powerbuy".
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post #13 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Berway:
Please post what you think is a reasonable profit margin taking into account everything stated above, and the fact that most HT users aren't as rich as others and usually try to get a better price via the well known "Powerbuy".</font>
Well Berway, It is basically what the dealer will except. I could be very well off and still want to jump in on a power buy to save $500.00 or shop the best deal to save $100.00
Mike


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post #14 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 04:16 PM
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What is a fair commission for a dealer to make on a projector sale?

It depends on the scenario. If you walk into a "high end" HT store, and spend hours with a knowledgable salesperson, and expect him/her to deal with any problems after the sale, then they are certainly justified in marking up the cost a reasonable amount.

However, the reality is that most regular participants of this forum probably know more about the products that they are buying than the person that they are buying it from. In such a case, if the dealer is just placing the order for the customer, a reasonable commission would be much less. Of course, don't expect much from the dealer after the sale.

Some of us are willing to buy from large volume (but factory authorized) internet dealers. I don't expect them to provide me with advice, nor do I expect help from them after the sale. Of course, if they send me a clearly defective unit I would expect them to exchange it. Their cost for doing so should be reimbursed by the manufacturer.

Ideally, with all of the information available to educated consumers on the internet, maybe someday consumers would have the option of purchasing an item like an LCD projector directly on-line from the manufacturer (sorry, dealers). In the meantime, I am ready to buy the PLV-60 at the lowest price that I can find from a factory authorized dealer. So far that price is $6095.

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post #15 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 08:13 PM
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I think 10% is a fair profit margin but as a dealer it is very difficult to get. Even 10% is not enough to support a bricks and mortar outlet and many members have posted regarding their frustration at not being able to see a demo of a projector they are interested in a local store. It really has become a vicious cycle because many of the same people who would like to see a demo also want to sign up for a powerbuy at even less than 10% over dealer cost. I think for the most part the damage is done and while the internet does provide information it is through the eyes of others and I would rather see the projector I am interested in myself. A projector is not a purchase you normally would be making often. To spend a little more and be able to walk into a local show room and A/B different models would be invaluable. I would pay more to have the peace of mind that I bought the right projector for my tastes and needs.
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post #16 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 08:25 PM
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Lenny:
I agree, problem is the markup that places that demo charge isn't a little more, it's a great big bunch more. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground out there. Unless there is some kind of unforseen change in the market dynamic, methinks we're going to have to rely on each other as much as possible and hopefully many of us will be able to make it to CES or the other shows where projectors are shown.

Dan

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post #17 of 30 Old 04-27-2001, 09:28 PM
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Dan G-
Because this unit is being made by Sanyo and it will eventually be widely available it will at some point be highly discounted with very small margins for dealers. In the beginning when it first comes out there may very well be the margins for the dealers to go the extra mile and take each one out of the box and test it before shipping. I think for the most part dealers would rather let the customer decide if the unit is acceptable because in the end the customer is the one that needs to make that decision. Certainly allowing dealers to open boxes and repack units opens the door to the possibility that used or returned units go out the door as new. From what I understand Runco will be selling this exact same unit and will more than likely be charging thousands of dollars more for the same projector with their name stamped on it and their dealers, if requested, should inspect them first.
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post #18 of 30 Old 04-28-2001, 10:40 AM
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I'd bet the dealer wouldn't even have to charge close to what it costs him to put on a demo. Even a nominal charge would knock out a lot of the people who have absolutely no intention of buying. There would still be potentially serious buyers who would pay to check it out then go to the Web to save money, but that happens in just about every business.


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post #19 of 30 Old 04-28-2001, 11:09 AM
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Steve-
The problem is there are virtually no dealers to provide demos because they cannot survive in today's market. For example how many local TV shops do you see compared to 20 years ago. I am in touch with owners of home theatre businesses and many have had to close their retail presence because customers just won't pay for the value added services a local business can provide. Instead we are dealing with order takers or secure servers. It is great to save money on items that are pretty much homogenized like computers and palm pilots, but it would be nice to see offerings by InFocus, Sanyo, Sony, NEC and others lined up in a row and be able to compare them from identical sources on to identical screen surfaces.
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post #20 of 30 Old 04-28-2001, 04:17 PM
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1) Does the PLV60 have lens shift?
2) We have a local dealer, Adtech, who has pretty decent prices, and demos are no problem, at least for business customers. Whenever I need a projector, I tell them what I'm looking for and they set up 3 or 4 units to shoot out. I get to bring VE and tune the units before comparing. They also have an Infocomm set of images. It can be done, at least for business or known customers.



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post #21 of 30 Old 04-28-2001, 08:21 PM
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If you are considering a power buy from Studio Experience I for one might be interested... but what kind of manufacture warranty would it have (Sanyo? or House Brand Studio Experience?) and are there any readers out there that have made any purchases from Studio Experience? What is their reputation?
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post #22 of 30 Old 04-28-2001, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Steve,

Yes, it's got lens shift.

Tropical,

I bought my current projector from Hank @ Studio Experience and I've been VERY happy with the pricing, service and post-sale support that I've received.

-Mike
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post #23 of 30 Old 04-29-2001, 01:44 AM
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Mike,
Glad to hear of your satisfaction with Studio Exp.
I am still wondering if thier version of the PLV-60 will be warrantied by Sanyo or another major manufacturer? Personally I am uncomfortable with only a retail store warranty.
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post #24 of 30 Old 04-29-2001, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Tropical,

My understanding is that it's backed by Boxlight.

-Mike
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post #25 of 30 Old 04-29-2001, 04:49 PM
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What is Boxlight???

Let me try to get this straight. Studio Experience is selling a modified (and more expensive) version of the PLV-60. The differences are 1)The color of the case 2) The internal electronics are "improved" to make it better (?safer) for home use and 3)Sanyo will no longer warranty the unit.

I was not aware that LCD projectors were potentially unsafe and that they need modification to make them safer.

Could someone (maybe from Studio Experience!) PLEASE clarify these questions.

pkurtis
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post #26 of 30 Old 04-29-2001, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Pkurtis,

Let me try to clarify a few things... Boxlight is a company that distributes/sells presentation devices (projectors, plasma displays, etc). They have several products that I know of (and maybe more) that are OEM from manufacturers like InFocus, Sanyo and others. (The Boxlight cd555m I own is actually an InFocus lp350 internally) In every case, Boxlight, not the original manufacturer, provides the warranty, service and support. That is nothing unusual, it is normal practice. If, for example, you buy a Dell computer and the CPU fails, you don't call Intel, you call Dell. If you were to call Intel, they would tell you to call Dell, regardless of whatever warranty they provided to Dell on the OEM processors.

Second, the class A/B certification isn't about an LCD projector being "unsafe". It has to do with the amount of electrical interference a device emits, and whether it has been designed/certified for commercial use or whether it is suitable for home use. You can read more about it at http://www.pseinc.com/faq.htm#FCC

As for price, I have no idea what their price is going to be, but my guess is that they're not raising the price. The point of the whole thing for Studio Experience would be to have a projector they can directly market for home use, with the stricter class B standard, in a case that they designed to blend in with the average matte-white ceiling, and still be in the same price range as a regular PLV-60. And, my understanding is that the warranty will be better than the standard Sanyo warranty, because they will replace/repair projectors with dead pixels. The way I see it, the fact that their service offering includes the 30 day unconditional replacement, the replace/repair for dead pixels and is backed by Boxlight is not a negative.

-Mike

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post #27 of 30 Old 04-29-2001, 11:10 PM
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Read about Boxlight at:
http://www.BOXLIGHT.com/whyboxlight/whybuymain.asp

What does everybody think?
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post #28 of 30 Old 04-29-2001, 11:48 PM
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I have only read good things about Studio Experience. Maybe there are some dissatisfied customers who will post their experiences. Anytime I have emailed them for information/pricing, they responded promptly.
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post #29 of 30 Old 04-30-2001, 01:35 AM
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Does anyone know whether this projector has MLA (micro lens array)? Sounds like a very interesting projector, and at a reasonable pricepoint. The 700:1 contrast ratio seems a bit difficult to swallow, for an LCD projector... but if they can really deliver good blacks, this would be a viable alternative to D-ILA.

David
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post #30 of 30 Old 04-30-2001, 11:21 AM
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I received this message from Boxlight Corp. today... I am sure they will answer any specific questions you have, and please share the information on this forum.

"Yes, a Boxlight Company is planning to introduce a version of the PLV-60.

Russell E. Short
Boxlight Corporation
19332 Powder Hill Place
Poulsbo, WA. 98370
360.779.7901
360.239.0897 Mobile
877.598.8209 Fax
&lt;russ.short@boxlight.com&gt;"

[This message has been edited by tropicalisland (edited 04-30-2001).]
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