Sony 11HT Contrast Ratio & US availability - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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From Sony Broadcast & Professional Group Display Division:
750:1 Contrast Ratio
July Japanese Release
Aug or Sept US Availability

B&H Communications is selling the 10HT for $4400 before the $300 rebate. (Final Cost $4100)
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post #2 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 12:07 PM
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Whoa Daddy!! I just got in line!! I've heard the first peek at the new Sony LCD unit will come at InfoComm. I've really enjoyed the performance of the 10HT for well over a year. If the new projector exceeds the 10HT parameters,,,, this will be one HOT product!!

Jack
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post #3 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 12:30 PM
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I posted this in another thread and I hope it is not true....but
a source that is in the business full time has told me the 11HT could very well be a disappointment and a step backwards. What I heard was that in an effort to improve contrast and black level the 11HT is not as bright as the 10HT. I hope this info is not correct because I was excited by the prospect of an improved 10HT.
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post #4 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 12:38 PM
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Maybe I'm a little dense but I don't see how a bulb that isn't as bright is going to increase contrast ratio.


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Brian

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post #5 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 12:50 PM
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Hi Brian,

Just to keep it arbitrary (since I don't know anything about this projector yet), I'm going to make up some measurements. In fact, I will use some arbitrary units to make the point.

Hypothetical measurements:
602 units white
2 units black

Making the bulb a tiny bit darker might result in:
601 units white
1 unit black

The bulb is only one (1) unit darker, but the contrast has DOUBLED! From about 300:1 to about 600:1! WOW, what an AMAZING improvement! Look at that picture, it's GORGEOUS (tongue firmly in cheek).

Again, I don't know anything about this particular projector, but a dimmer projector can very often have higher contrast (look at CRT, which are in general much dimmer than digital projectors, but with a theoretically infinite contrast).

[This message has been edited by milori (edited 05-04-2001).]

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Datacolor, Inc.
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post #6 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 01:04 PM
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But, in a previous post it said the 11HT had an increase in brightness over the 10HT's 1000 lumens. I think it's still a 250W UHP bulb though. Maybe they had a design change in the optical assembly (more efficient?). Oh well, it makes no sense to lose sleep over, we'll just have to wait and see the real deal instead of making speculations. In the mean time I'm interested in seeing the new Sanyo 16x9 LCD which should ship in a couple of weeks.

Tom
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post #7 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 01:09 PM
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Mark, are the laws of physics different on the planet you live on? So, by your reasoning, if I dropped the brightness slightly more to 600, the black level is now zero with an infinite contrast ratio? What happens at 599.. a black hole? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

In fact Brian is right, changing the brightness of the bulb will not affect the contrast ratio, all else being equal. I suspect they've modified the optical path to improve contrast, but by doing so sacrificed the brightness.

Cheers,
Dave.


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post #8 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 01:18 PM
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I think Dave picked up on what I was confused on...

I thought upper end brightness and lower end brightness were linear. In other words, you can't just drop the lower end by one unit and the upper end by one unit.

I would be rather surprised if Sony decided to sacrifice peak brightness for a new release. It seems that the projector companies are always trying to win peak brightness wars and that would seem like a major marketing blunder for Sony to take a step backwards.

I have heard mention that perhaps Sony is selling the 11HT with settings that approximate what some users have after doing calibrations on it. That would have the effect of increasing contrast ratio along with decreasing brightness.

I'll definitely be waiting for some reports comparing it to the Sanyo and also to a D-ILA

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post #9 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 01:54 PM
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Mark,

I think understand where you were going with your calculations.

But in general these things are ratios not absolute values. The LCD panel isn't a gate that can only block X number of lumens. It is a gate that blocks out a percentage 99%, 99.9%, whatever.

If you double the brightness of the bulb, the peak whites and blacks go up by a factor of 2 which means the contrast ratio is the same.

Yes on a design level maximizing brightness every step of the way isn't always good, but that is a different subject.

If they do sacrifice some lumens for contrast, so be it. 1000 or 700 or whatever should be plenty for a good HT, the out of the box 150:1 the original 10HT had wasn't good at any lumen value.

-Mr. Wigggles

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post #10 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 05:08 PM
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<LOL>

You guys crack me up. I'm glad that you stomp on me when I need it. It keeps me in check http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Dave, Yes, in my hypothetical setup above, if you drop the brightness down one more "unit" you have WHITE=600, BLACK=0. Infinite contrast! Woo Hoo! If the device is truly black at 0 IRE, you have infinite contrast. Truly. It's theoretically possible, and maybe even actually possible in the real world with some CRTs or maybe the upcoming Grating Light Valve laser-based projectors.

If you drop to 599 "units", it's still infinity (no black hole). It's infinity all the way down. In fact, WHITE=1, BLACK=0 is still infinite contrast. Not that it would produce anything watchable (at least, not without a Fevrish lens), but that's another story.

Anyway, I didn't say that this was the way that it actually works, I was just saying that it was possible to reduce light output and increase contrast at the same time, which was the original question.

If it was actually this easy, all the manufacturers would do it to get their contrast specs up. It would require a fair bit of engineering to get right.

Oh...D-ILAs are another good example! 300:1 out of the box...lots of brightness. After calibration, more like 500:1 to 650:1, with a loss of brightness.

How can you have higher contrast with a darker picture? Focus on the black level.

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Datacolor, Inc.
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post #11 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 06:56 PM
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milori,

That is exactly what happens to a Thumperized (modified) UP-1100 or clone. The brightness goes down about 20% (over "normal" mode) but the black level goes down 55 - 60%. This yields a contrast ratio better than a stock unit. This is not due to a change in bulb brightness but systematic control of the light throughout the optic path, controlling spill, etc...

As to Sony, they will have to change their past methods of using fly-eye integrators to even out the lamp's uniformity. This along with the single layer primary polarizing plates and standard 90 degree TN twist LCD panels are mainly why the 10HT has yielded such poor performance in contrast.

I understand the new Sanyos have the better contrast due to an integrator system which does not "fight" the polarizers as much as designs with multiple random waves passed from numerous lamp mini-dispersion lenses. Also Sanyo has specified a different TN twist on the LCD panels and they utilize much improved primary polarizer plates and improved polarizers on the front of the LCD panels to take advantage of the panels specs.

I haven't been able to confirm if the panels are the 270 degree TN twist(or some other) version instead of the industry staple of 90 degrees. If the are it represents a major improvement since the 270 wasn't noted for efficency or speed.

Hope to see the 11HT at Infocomm.

Its a new "twist" on things.

Thumpers 2c

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post #12 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 10:58 PM
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post #13 of 14 Old 05-04-2001, 11:29 PM
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Thumper,

Just wanted to say thanks for your insightfull information! Sometimes I really enjoy knowing the truly technical aspect of this "hobby".

Keep up the great work!

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David Mendicino
Sharp xv-s55u (Don't laugh) :)

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post #14 of 14 Old 05-05-2001, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Robert Whitehead:
B&H Communications is selling the 10HT for $4400 before the $300 rebate. (Final Cost $4100)</font>
Wow! Great price. And this should kill the used market for 10HTs making some great used buys for people who want to get into the entry level of FP at a relatively low cost.

How come I forsee a lot of AVS owners with ads in the classified section in the next 12 months?

--Les

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