Should I wait? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 05-03-2001, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I want to get a light cannon this year for my apartment (no ceiling mouting or holes in closet doors).

Ideally, I want a projector that is easy-to-use, portable, sub $10K, bright, good color, 16:9 (or high enough rez that I don't feel cheated by the black bars), reasonable bulb cost, no screen door effect, and no rainbow.

Each techology has definite trade-offs. After lurking for a month here's how I see it...

D-ILA Pros: very bright, great color
D-ILA Cons: very noisy, very expensive bulbs

DLP Pros: bright, good color
DLP Cons: noisy, expensive bulbs, rainbow

LCD Pros: easy to setup, decent color
LCD Cons: screen door effect, poor black level, light control needed

I'm leaning towards the Sanyo PLV-60 (I hope it has MLA) but am wondering if anything else interesting is coming out this year that I should wait for?
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post #2 of 31 Old 05-03-2001, 05:28 PM
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I'm right there with you bud..

I know a guy who has seen the new Sanyo and it did not wow him...

After fighting it, I'm probably going to get a DILA. The DILA has drawbacks but not in its ability to project a wonderful image, the others have problems with projecting the best image,that does not have some critical flaw..

Be sure to look at all of them before you decide..

Good luck!!

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post #3 of 31 Old 05-03-2001, 07:03 PM
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Red,

I don't know what your budget is but waiting is always a good option.

I really think the PLV-60 is going to be good but I think the 11HT is going to be what really kicks of front projection in the states.

If the 11HT has slightly better colors (reds), 700:1 type contrast, and 1366*768 RGB support, it will be king.

These three things kept the 10HT from domenating.

I am going to a seminar next Tuesday hosted by Sony. I hope they will have the 11HT on hand as one of their "suprises" (an unnamed digital projector is named in the invotation).

Anyway,

JVC needs to get their prices down to make their stuff worth it.

DLP needs to hit the HT market harder.

LCD needs to get d-ila type colors and needs to have a more improved fill ratio.

I think all of these things are possible.

-Mr. Wigggles

PS. Only two manufacturers make LCD panels for all of the digital projectors out there, Epson and Sony. Epson has the MLA, Sony doesn't. Sony has the WideXGA, Epson doesn't.

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post #4 of 31 Old 05-03-2001, 07:37 PM
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I have not heard or seen anything in regard to the 11HT but a source that is in the business full time has told me the 11HT could very well be a disappointment and a step backwards. What I heard was that in an effort to improve contrast and black level the 11HT is less bright than the 10HT. I hope this info is not correct because I was excited by the prospect of an improved 10HT.
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post #5 of 31 Old 05-03-2001, 07:41 PM
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Infocomm will be here soon. Any new announcements may come at that time.

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post #6 of 31 Old 05-03-2001, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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DLP might fit the bill if they did a 3 color wheel (no clear section to make the rainbow worse), upped the wheel speed perhaps, and got the lamp cost down a tad.

A front projector would fit my life style so well. No heavy box or fragile LCD panel to deal with. But I'm loathe to pay dramatically more for less (still saving for that Ferrari ;).

<sigh>
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post #7 of 31 Old 05-04-2001, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MrWigggles:
I don't know what your budget is but waiting is always a good option.
</font>
Waiting certainly is the least expensive option. I'm very glad I didn't wait. My theater is a blast.

I'd be wary of a DILA or any $10,000-$15000 projector at this time. Not because they're not good. But because the new stuff in the next 12 months is going to cause them to drop like a rock.

If you can afford it, get in now at the lower end or buy something used with the option of upgrading in about 12 months.

--Les

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post #8 of 31 Old 05-04-2001, 11:37 AM
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Try this for a buying philosophy. Don't be a slave to technology. Let technology be your slave.

In other words, you make the criteria of what you want out of a projector that would make you totally satisfied. Set your spending limit (you might be a slave to finance though). If technology has not met your requirements, then wait or get a really cheap TV to tie you over. Don't be fooled into making compromises. You'll save more and be happy with yourself in the end.


Half the fun is the research. I was hooked when I saw a sony 400q and waited for the 10ht. When the 10ht didn't meet my requirements I waited again. I'm very happy with my DILA, but if it didn't meet my finance requirements I would've waited again.
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post #9 of 31 Old 05-04-2001, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess I'll have to continue living without TV until a projector meets my needs...

In my condo I had a great TV (3 tube projector) and an ok sound system. In my house I had a great sound system and a good TV (Sony XBR). Now I want it all, in an apartment http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif.
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post #10 of 31 Old 05-04-2001, 04:45 PM
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I agree with Joe Brasi.

I have been following this area for decades and I think that the next 12-18 months will be the period of greatest growth in quality and affordability for FPTV projectors. If you can wait, now is an uncommonly good time to wait.

In addition to great new things, used equipment will be very inexpensive, I think. At least I hope so, since I try to optimize "value" in my HT purchases.

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post #11 of 31 Old 05-04-2001, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If you can wait, now is an uncommonly good time to wait</font>
While I tend to agree, the same thing was being said on this same forum 18 months ago when I started looking. A search on the archives will reveal the wisdom of the prognosticators of past years...

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post #12 of 31 Old 05-04-2001, 10:18 PM
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I first must say that the longer you wait, the less time you will have in enjoying what is available today.

You have pointed out the pros and cons of each, but must realize that there will always be some flaw. I have come to except that will approaching it, no product is ever "perfect".

If you are sensitive to the rainbow artifact, then DLP is out the window, unless you are not bothered by it.

Your con for LCD "light control needed" is incorrect I believe, for LCD's can and now are brighter than DLP.

However, I must agree in that now is the time to wait. New DLPs may eliminate all rainbow and make DLP superior to LCD. But then, the Sony 11HT may turn out to be an amazing machine.

I have to say unless you plan to upgrade, you should wait till at least these come out.

But then, you will always be "waiting", because new things come out all the time. My projector, the Sharp VGA model, was TOP-OF-THE=LINE just a few years ago, and now even I would consider it a mockery, even though it served well.

So, it is buy and enjoy now, but regret when the better thing comes out, or buy later, say I am glad I waited, cuz this is much better, only to realize they will announce something better right when yours is delivered to your home.


Case in point, and this is just an example, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST SELECO!!!

But they have anounced, within two months of releasing the HT200, a better version with better scaling and a new colour wheel. Imagine if you just bought that thing now!




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post #13 of 31 Old 05-04-2001, 10:40 PM
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Waiting sucks. If you have the FPTV HT bug, you probably caught it by seeing a kick@ss setup in person. You saw it, it blew you away and now you MUST HAVE IT! I know the feeling. The first thing is to scour this forum and internet search engines for information. Maybe one week, you think LCD is the way to go. Next week, D-ILA's resolution has you rethinking your options. Then you think about CRT, but rule it out because of it's size/weight/setup issues/whatever. Then you think DLP is the way to go, but then you read some more posts and now you're more confused than ever! Now is not the time to buy. Don't rush into this. Keep doing research and keep absorbing the information. Eventually you will be well informed - at least in manufacturer's claims and the opinions of the forum members. Best thing is to see it for yourself. But waiting, just to wait for prices to come down is something I don't advocate. I mean if you know that prices on a model you are interested in are about to take a nose dive, well that's one thing. But while you keep waiting for prices to drop, many people will have had huge s--- eating grins on their faces for months, while they watch their front projection setup. I can tell you that a few days ago I watched The Road To El Dorado and while it was an awful movie, chapter 11 was nearly a religious experience, it looked that awesome. If you know what you want and you can afford it, don't deprive yourself.
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post #14 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 05:02 AM
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If you know what you want and you can afford it, don't deprive yourself. I have to agree with this statement as well.. Prices are always falling... Machines are getting better at such a pace that the newer machines are leapfrogging each other in performance so fast that what ever you buy the projector will be dethroned before it is barely out of the packing...

Another way to look at this is if you want to dive in now and keep your options open go for a cheap used / B stock example that you know to be temporary..

Grabbing something like the 1100's going last week at $1695 or a Davis DL450 clone (DLPTheater just let one go for $1850) will mean you can get in now.. Have fun.. Enjoy the projector and keep evolving / refining your setup... and sell it on for a relatively minor loss (if any given those prices) in 6 months.. Of course for this advice to work you have to a) Buy at the bottom of the market where the downside is fairly low.. b) Not mind the temporary nature of the purchase (some people see their HT as something that is 'finished' and right.. many, or even most, see it as an evolution anyway) c) Be happy about the prospect of mounting / remounting as different throw ratios etc may not be so compatible..

If I was on the sidelines this is how I would proceed as I dont think I could bear to be without a FP now I have had one...

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post #15 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 11:43 AM
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I had a good friend who kept waiting and waiting to get a new PC. Every year or 6 mos a newer, faster, better models were shipping, and he sat there waiting for over two years, even though he really wanted one very badly..

-- Cain



[This message has been edited by Cain (edited 05-05-2001).]
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post #16 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 01:40 PM
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The PC is also a good example of my belief in occasional "cusps" in the technology evolution curve. Consider the following.

If you had gone out to buy a new PC in late early 1994, the fastest you could have gotten would have been a 486 DX2. If you waited until mid-1995 (18 months later), you would have been able to buy a Pentium P120 running W95.

I still am using a P120 that I bought in exactly that timeframe. The DX2 would have been junked by now. That point in time--1994-1995--was a cusp in the evolution of PC's. You were well off to wait if you could.

On the other hand, if you bought a Windows computer at any point in the last two years, you would not have seen such differences in quality/price/performance. I bought a Sony notebook in early 2000. It is comparable to the new models now in the stores. It would not have benefitted me to have waited.

I believe we are in such a point right now for HT PJ's. A good time to wait if you can do so me thinks. Especially if you are still researching the issue (as several posters pointed out).


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post #17 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 01:56 PM
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I do not believe that Front PJs will or ever have followed Moore's law. I do not believe computer processing power and the quality of front projectors serves as a useful comparison because of the economies of scale.
The improvement in display technologies are uneven at best, but if you see an image that you feel you would enjoy for a five year period of time, buy it.
The biggest problem D-ILA has at this time is that there cheapest projector is about 10 grand. They stop producing the G11, and the 3010 has not made an appearance (I was not excited about it anyway-the elimination of the xenon lamp).

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post #18 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joe Brasi:
This ain't your ordinary year for projectors and new standards will be established.
</font>
Has there ever been an 'ordinary' year for projectors? If you think this year will be hot, just wait til 2002, when sub-licensed D-ILA, LCOS and who knows what else hit the market.

And when the technology has finally stabilized we will dump our obsolescent projectors for 150+ inch Plasmas/LCDs etc.

It's a good thing too - just imagine, shopping for a projector would be as boring as buying a TV set. How horrible!

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post #19 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 03:51 PM
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If your requirements are absolute and not based on what others have or what you could have had, wait until your requirements have been met. If your requirements are relative, there are some decent projectors now.

I'm still watching a 1986 Sony XBR 26" TV because it was good enough. I was driving my 1983 Chevette up until a few years ago. But I'm not satisfied with the tradeoffs in FP yet so I'm waiting - but when I get one, it will be used for years to come.
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post #20 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 04:05 PM
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As has often been the case, Larry has said it best.
Don't wait, buy now. Look for a good deal on a projector that you will not be married to. You may eventually unload it; in the meantime, you will set up your screen, electronics, sound, lighting etc., etc., etc., and learn a lot more about this hobby than you possibly could reading and waiting.
By the time all of the above is accomplished, there will be a new generation of projectors that you might trade up to. Or maybe you'll wait two generations. In the meantime, even less than the best can look spectacular.
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post #21 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 04:13 PM
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Whether you wait or not also depends on how old you are!
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post #22 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 04:51 PM
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The reason I stress waiting is:

Unlike most items in your theater. Your HT is built around you front projector.

1. What's its throw ratio?
2. What's its inputs?
3. What's its noise level?
4. What's its aspect ratio?
5. What's its form factor?
etc.

The only projector that I know of right now that completely satisfy my tastes for all time is a 8" or 9" CRT. But obviously it heavilly impacts all 5 of the items above. If I would want to change my projector, I would have to change my HT.

I had a 10HT and its prorperties are much different than my UP-1100. I did an anormous amount of work installing it correctly only to trade it in after being disatisfied with its picture. I still have the cables hanging from near the center of the room because it had such a short throw.

I strongly suggest purchasing your HT items in the following order:

Audio electronics.
Audio Speakers.
Video source electronics.
Display device.

I don't feel like arguing this point because there isn't anything to argue. Everyone is different and this is my experiences as a case study.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. A good direct view crt is good purchase. My "refence" monitor is a top of the line 19" princeton graphics I bought for $150. I do most my viewing/computer work on it. If my Plus wasn't thumperized, I would probably do all of viewing on it. You can't beat a reference image even if you are watching it from 2 feet away.

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post #23 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 06:52 PM
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Amicable disagreement should not be a problem. In custom design you have to know where to place the seats for optimum sound and viewing. You will not have an optimal seating plan until you know the acoustics of the room and optimal distance for the display device, resolution and screen size in question.

To the original question:
If you do not need to be on the cutting edge, there are some excellent deals on B-stock and discontinued projectors. If you know you cannot tolerate screen door, rainbow affect, or loud projectors consider a B-Stock 8 or 9" CRT from the many reputable people that visit this forum.

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[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited 05-05-2001).]

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post #24 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 09:02 PM
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I just want to say that agree with the two posters above me.

When I said wait, it was not a matter of waiting for prices, but of better technology. It is true, and I will advocate as well, than if you know there is a product out now that you are completely happy with and MUST have it, then buy it. Just make sure you do a "little" research to know what is coming down the road shortly. And if waiting a month can save a $1000 or so, then it would be silly NOT to wait.

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post #25 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 09:44 PM
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I think it makes sense to wait now because of the incredible frequency of new projector releases, each one better than before. We're not talking several years to obsolescence, we're talking several months. It reminds me of that period of time with PCs from pre-Pentium to about Pentium 3. Yes, the computers are still getting faster but, for the applications used by the vast majority of computer users, the extra speed has little use. I'm using a Pentium II and there's simply no reason to upgrade beyond it as it does everything I want to do or are likely to want to do in the near future.

Look what's in the pipeline: PLV60, new Yamaha, new Sharp, new models of Seleco, Sony 11HT, new InFocus. All of these will be out by year end, most within a few months. There's a general changeover to 6 section color wheels coming in a few months.

After this bunch hits the market, I expect things to slow down some. You'll see a steady erosion of prices and projectors which are much better than the current LCD and DLP will sell for $5K or less by late Winter.

I can't afford to buy a projector that is obsolete in 3 months. It would resell for half what I paid for it. If the new color wheel fixes the rainbow problem, I should be able to go for XGA DLP by Christmas. Helluva Christmas present!

Dan

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
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post #26 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 10:41 PM
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We're placing some awful high expectations on the next wave of projectors. Hope they meet them in performance rather than just stats. In my mind, the best part about waiting will be the price drops on the current stuff. But time will tell.

There's no way I'd be happy with a 26" Sony or 19" Princeton in my home theater. I don't care how reference they are. Size matters...to me. And the current options are pretty darn good in my opinion. I agree with JHouse that we are looking at better options every 12-18 months for the next 10 years. I don't think we even know what advances are in store for us in this relatively new market space.

It all comes down to economics. I look at my projector as being analagous to a car lease. When the next major upgrade comes around (I'm not convinced yet that the next wave is it), then I'll trade it in for the newer model. Meanwhile I'm still drivin...

--Les
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post #27 of 31 Old 05-05-2001, 11:41 PM
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Speaking of 3 months...

Remember 3 short months ago? You would have been crazy to buy one of the "tried and true" home theater performers at the time because of what was coming...After all, there were some awesome candidates in the pipeline! The Seleco 200/250, the DWin TransVision, the JVC 3010Z, the new Yamaha DLP...even new surprise LCD developments.

Well, here we are...3 months later. The pipeline is realized. Was it a good idea to wait? Not really. All you did was to miss out on 3 great months of enjoyment. The tried-and-true performers are still pretty much the units of choice, and 3 months have disappeared.

This carousel seems to keep turning. A person can jump on whenever they want...it is always same no matter when you get in...there is always a better horse coming up "right behind this one".

The only problem with waiting for that "better" horse is missing out on the fun you could have had by jumping on the really first good one you saw!

Pick a tested, consistent performer and jump on for the ride. In 3 months, you will have a much bigger smile than if you were still caught "waiting" on the sidelines.

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post #28 of 31 Old 05-06-2001, 12:28 AM
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Mark,

The problem for me is that the JVC products just don't do it for me right now.

A martinized G11 with an HTPC or Vigatec or such maybe.

Was I waiting on the G1030Z? No.
Was I waiting on the HT250? No, too expensive doesn't handle HD well yet.
etc..

The bottom line is: I don't think there is an worthy projector out there that you will be particularly proud of after keeping it a year. Maybe, a PLV60 or a 11HT or a good XGA DLP with a fabled panamorph.

If you have a $50K, a 5000SC sounds good and sure does beat a 4000. But why not a double stack of G90's? Money no object then go ahead and spend it.

But if you have to ask (and Brian is), you're not ready to buy.

-Mr. Wigggles

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[This message has been edited by MrWigggles (edited 05-06-2001).]

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post #29 of 31 Old 05-06-2001, 08:41 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MrWigggles:
The reason I stress waiting is:

Unlike most items in your theater. Your HT is built around you front projector.

1. What's its throw ratio?
2. What's its inputs?
3. What's its noise level?
4. What's its aspect ratio?
5. What's its form factor?
etc.

The only projector that I know of right now that completely satisfy my tastes for all time is a 8" or 9" CRT. But obviously it heavilly impacts all 5 of the items above. If I would want to change my projector, I would have to change my HT.

I had a 10HT and its prorperties are much different than my UP-1100. I did an anormous amount of work installing it correctly only to trade it in after being disatisfied with its picture. I still have the cables hanging from near the center of the room because it had such a short throw.

I strongly suggest purchasing your HT items in the following order:

Audio electronics.
Audio Speakers.
Video source electronics.
Display device.

I don't feel like arguing this point because there isn't anything to argue. Everyone is different and this is my experiences as a case study.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. A good direct view crt is good purchase. My "refence" monitor is a top of the line 19" princeton graphics I bought for $150. I do most my viewing/computer work on it. If my Plus wasn't thumperized, I would probably do all of viewing on it. You can't beat a reference image even if you are watching it from 2 feet away.

</font>


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Ron
"Your priorities will be different-its the weighting that counts!"

Ron
"Your priorities will be different-its the weighting that counts!-only if its done by FET!"

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post #30 of 31 Old 05-06-2001, 08:45 AM
REW
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Wiggles,
Sorry,meant to add that the list of 5 can be conquered and then 8"CRT will be your last projector.(for a while anyway.)
Cheers Ron
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Ron
"Your priorities will be different-its the weighting that counts!"

Ron
"Your priorities will be different-its the weighting that counts!-only if its done by FET!"

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Closed Thread Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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