Should I just break down and get a DILA ?? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 03:43 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kenliles:
For scaling NTSC and other sources like VCR - Laser disk with an HTPC:
Add a tuner card (Brooktree) that excepts S-video input, install dTV (deinterlacer) freeware and feed it thru your normal video feed to the DILA. Does a superb job; at least as good as external scalers.

ken
</font>
Thanks Ken , I had no idea that a separate deinterlacer program did exist for the PC. I have a hauppage internal TV tuner that has a max of 640x480 resolution as an overlay to the 1360x1024. The G11 sees my tv stations as 640x480 and the internal D-ILA scaler is not fast enough. with too fast moving of objects or moving of the camera I see little black lines interlacing that particular part of the image that moved too fast. I thought that I had to live with that.
dTV (deinterlacer) freeware is that the name: dTV? I would like to search it on the internet.

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post #32 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 04:08 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">OK Robert.. Fork over some more details or me ane the boyz (Mark, Cameron, etc) are gonna have to get rough with you!! You talking about that 3010Z thingy??</font>
No, my source saw the 3010 and you have nothing to wait from it for HT. It's quite ugly. It's small, silent, with a nice interface and completely unwatchable compared to a G11. I'll ask for more details and come back to you, that's a promise.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I have not had the luck that Robena has had using a progressive scan DVD player with my 9000D (G10). Scaling artifacts are easily seen and are quite distracting. He must have stumbled on some combination of gear that works well</font>
Hum, I have seen various players (Ayre, Panny, Pioneer DV37) on a G11 and G20, and did not see more artifacts than with a Faroudja. But I think that the Faroudja is not an optimum match for a D-ILA.

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Robert

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post #33 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 04:15 PM
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Hi Kyrill,

No need to go far to find out about dTV. It is discussed quite a bit in the HTPC Forum here at AVScience. Do a search there, and you will find out more than you need to know.

Mark Hunter
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post #34 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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OK back to the topic of my thread..

I'm looking very seriously at a G-15 now..

I can get a good deal on a Quadscan Pro.

Is this a good scaler for the JVC G-15 ???

Thanks!!

-- Cain
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post #35 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 09:48 PM
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Kyrill-
In addition to Mark's post for the AVS HTPC forum, here's the internet site to acquire the feeware:
http://deinterlace.sourceforge.net/

ken
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post #36 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 09:55 PM
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Cain-
Sorry for the diversion from your thread.

I personally prefer HTPC to any external scaler due to the flexibility and easy upgradeability. You also get a bunch of other features like Internet browsing which I'm using now while watching the NBA from my satellite - dTV fed to my G11

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post #37 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 10:06 PM
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Sorry, Cain,

We went a little off topic on your thread.

I Remember that Dean McManis had a QuadScan for a while with his G15 and loved it.

Remarkably, there is little about the combination in the D-ILA FAQ, but there is a link to this thread about some sync incompatibility with QS 2.06 (which might be quite old by now, I'm not sure).

Mark

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post #38 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 02:06 AM
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Cain,

The replacement for the G15 is scheduled for October. I heard it will have a good de-interlacer, will be less noisy, and will be a HT specific design. I heard also the 16x9 magic words, but my source was not sure of that.

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Robert

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post #39 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Thx Mark, since I can get a really good deal on the QuadScan I may take the plunge.

I really love PC's and build them all the time for friends and family, and have built several servers, but I am concerned that a HTPC may make the system more complex for my wife to operate. I want this ti be simple enough for a child to operate everything..

Thx for the news of the G-15 replacement. But I may have finally had it with waiting for "the next big thing". If/when it comes out, and it is great, I'll sell my G-15 and move over to that ;-)

Take care guys, thanks for the help!

-- Cain
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post #40 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 11:46 AM
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Cain,

If you are going to get a DILA, you are going to get a big screen - right? Let's say 96x54 which is 110" diagonal (that's what I have). Are you going to watch DVD's? If so, an HTPC will beat the tar out of any combination that you can find of a scaler and a dedicated DVD player. The ability (through PowerStrip) to exactly tune the picture to the 1360x768 pixel dimensions of the SXGA input on Computer 1 results in a stunning DVD picture.

As for the wife friendliness, I have two pieces of advice:

1) Since you are PC competent, you obviously are comfortable changing, improving, tweaking, DESTROYING, your computers and their software. Resist this urge. Get to a stable configuration and leave the thing alone. I have made one "upgrade" to my HTPC in the last year which was new drivers for the AP 24/96 card. I still have a Geforce GTS card in my HTPC because I have not and will not take the Radeon plunge until things with that card become out of the box simple. In other words, if you behave like an early adopter tweaker because you know know to, you will pay the price.

2) Get an Airboard, a Pronto and the required .CCF. I can completely control the relevant aspects of my HTPC from my Pronto. Press the "All On" button, and everything turns on (the HTPC stays on). Press DVD and everything is switched to the required settings (preamp to DVD, DILA to Computer 1, etc). Press Play and the DVD plays (and the lights dim).

My bottom line is this. If you are going to get a DILA you should also go with a large screen. If you are going to go large screen, you need an HTPC to optimize the DVD playback quality.

Cheers,

Bernd
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post #41 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Bernd, terrific post and good info/advice.. It is much appreciated..

Now let me get this straight. A HTPC will take the place of both a progressive Scan DVD AND a scaler for DVDs, correct??

Also, what about needind to do some sort of scaling for NTSC telecasts?? Can I do this with a HTPC as well??

And finally, what CPU/RAM/OS is a sort of enrty-level for a HTPC??

And thanks for the info, help, advice.

I guess I am in a unique situation since I really love PCs and enjoy building and fiddling so building a terrific HTPC is no problem for me at all (good advice to leave it alone BTW ;-)

-- Cain


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post #42 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 01:18 PM
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Cain,

Yes your HTPC will do duty as a Progressive DVD player and Scaler for that DVD. Using the free dTV freeware you can deinterlace NTSC sources. dTV is a great app and does a great job at deinterlacing. Some other advantages of an HTPC are the ability to do Internet stuff, gaming, and tweakability.

As for the configuration of the HTPC, I currently have Thunderbird 1.1Ghz which is overkill. I have 128MB ram which is working well. I have never had a stutter or slowdown. My HD is an IBM 7200rpm drive. I am using a GeForce card that looks great. I have PowerDVD and WinDVD which both have great positives. I use a Hauppage card for the NTSC scaling.

Hope this helps a little.

Cameron

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post #43 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 01:52 PM
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Cain-
I agree with Bernd. If you get the Dilard software (highly recommended) for the HTPC all of the Airboard-Pronto ccf and Dilard control files are included with Dilard for complete out-of-the-box control of the projector from the Pronto remote. It's not hard, as Bernd suggested, to add to tese control of your audio component from the Pronto which provides a very easy HT control for the wife and kids. With this situation, my wife simply presses the 'Watch Movie' button on the Pronto and everything fires up ready to watch the movie. Even easier, with a Dilard macro written, all she does is insert the DVD into the PC and it automatically fires it up with Pronto button at all!

food for thought...
Good luck with your system

ken

[This message has been edited by kenliles (edited 05-03-2001).]
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post #44 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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So you folks feel I would be better served to take the money I would have put into a new DVD player and a new scaler and simply get a HTPC???

Hmmm, for some reason that sounds too simple and too cost effective &lt;s&gt;!!

Perhaps I know how simple it is to build a new PC from scratch and since that does not scare me, it all seems too easy..

So I can do everything an outboard scaler with a HTPC?? And I can automate the tasks with a pronto?? OK if this is so easy, why doesn't everyone do it??

Is the DVD output from these HTPC's glitchy?? Will the software crash in the middle of Gladiator?? Is there some downside here I am missing??

Thanks for the help guys,

-- Cain

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post #45 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 03:33 PM
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I presently have a similar HTPC as Cameron above. I do all of the things previously posted above; DVD movies with WinDVD scaling and perfect timings (Powerstrip - Mark Rejon) for DILA, 24bit 96kHz digital audio to a Meridian digital theater system, dTV scaling for Satellite - cable (NTSC) - VCR - and OTA; Airboard Pronto automation, Dilard control (projector and software macros), Web surfing, and Siren jukebox for music listening, ripping and cd burning. All of this and more with the wife accessing it with four top level Pronto button: Play a Movie, Watch TV, Listen to Music, Theater Off

Why doesn't everyone do this?

I don't think everyone is comfortable putting the pieces together:
PC, video card, Hauppauge card, Sound card, Airboard
Dilard, dTV, WinDVD
Pronto, pronto edit, customization for yousystem

Once it's all together though, I think it's a much better value (price - performance).

Downsides
Once operational, the only downside I've noticed is slightly less dependability of operation. This typically is traced to Windows instability. I rarely if ever see this while playing a movie. It's usually on startup, shutdown, switching from DVD to NTSC (dTV). It's still pretty rare, but does happen occasionally. Once Windows 2000 support (dts and other issues) is achieved, I think even this should improve. My other PCs running 2000 virtually never crash.

my .02

ken

[This message has been edited by kenliles (edited 05-03-2001).]
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post #46 of 60 Old 05-03-2001, 05:14 PM
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Cain,

I leave my PCs running all of the time but many people don't. A HTPC has a boot time which sucks compared to the Scaler/DVD player combo.

Another reason that more people don't do HTPC is that it does take a lot of initial work to get it going. It isn't hard work, but it does take some time. It took me some hours to put the thing together, intall the OS, the drivers and software etc...

I forgot all about the nice advantage of having a great MP3 jukebox available too.

Cameron

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post #47 of 60 Old 05-04-2001, 04:20 AM
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Cain,
I love the many HTPCs I have had, but I think equating the usability of a HTPC with a stand-alone DVD player and a scaler is somewhat dishonest.

I have never had my stand-alone player lock up. I have never had a disk that would not play on my 4 stand-alone players. About 3% of my 450 DVDs do not play on the HTPC. Window is windows. The current rage is the Radeon, evaluate the growing pains of this transition. HTPCs are not strong at deinterlacing and scaling video sources.

Note that none of this means that I am anti-PC. It just means that there are other issues. See if you can purchase one of the pansonic players without the chroma sampling problems and mate it with a CI or quadscan. This might run you 1100 to 1400 dollars combined. The last version of the quadscan that I tested with the D-ILA worked fine, but the end-user interface through the remote is a PIA. You need RS232 if you wish to avoid menu navigation to change AR and video sources. The reason why there is so little about the quadscan is that many (inluding Phil at TAW) advocated people buy the CI because of a number of problems that occurred in the early versions of the quadscan when used with a D-ILA. In fact, peter nielsen (a vigatec proponent at present) accurately described his problems with the quadscan. For 16:9 screens the quadscan can top justify the scaled NTSC image and the CI cannot. I did not see any difference in performance with my D-ILA when comparing the CI and the quadscan. The quadscan is not capable of pre-squeezing images for use with an optical anamorphic adapter while the CI is able to do this.

The last thing to deal with is the hyperbole when well-meaning enthusiasts describe the differences in image quality between the 2 setups. Statements like "HTPCs kicks living tar out of scalers" are misleading if you have never done a personal comparison. The HTPC is an incremental improvement over the CI and quadscan with film based material. The HTPC produces a stunning image, but the scaler produce a nice image too. If you want to quantify it, I would say the scaler produces 80-85% image quality of the HTPC.

Lastly, If you have built a few PCs you can build a truly outstanding HTPC for around 1000 dollars with a high end sound card, Geforce or Radeon graphics card, 900mhz to 1ghz processors, Asus Cusl/Cuvx board, DVDrom, 128mb ram, quiet cooling fans, black case and all.

For 2500 bucks you could have the best of both worlds. High WAF and the ability to derive the best scaled DVD image quality.


PS Buy the projector now, you deserve it.
------------------
STOP HDCP on DVI
Don O



[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited 05-04-2001).]

Cheers,
Don O
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post #48 of 60 Old 05-04-2001, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Don. Thank you for the message and info..

I am leaning strongly towards the DILa dna DVD Player and Quadscan for many of the reasons you listed.

I wil also likely build and "fiddle" with a HTPC, but do the majority of my DVD viewing with the Quadscan/DVD player combo. I believe it wil be easier to set-up, to use, and more stable..

Thanks again,

take care,

-- Cain
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post #49 of 60 Old 05-04-2001, 06:05 AM
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Cain,

I bought my HTPC (from Digital Connection). It came with the six channel version of PowerDVD pre-installed, the GeForce GTS pre-installed, the AP 24/96 card pre-installed. The only thing I had to do was follow is simple set of instructions (the "perfect DILA timings" - see the DILA FAQ) to configure the video card for the DILA. It took 20 minutes to get my HTPC set up of optimum performance with my Dukane 9015 (same as JVC G15).

I reboot my HTPC once a week because it runs Windows98 and you know what that means.

As for NTSC sources, I was worried about that as well when I got started. Turns out on a 110" screen even deinterlaced NTSC sources look pretty bad. 240 lines of source resolution scaled up to 768 lines of DILA is just not going to look good. So, I subscribed to DirectTV and get every source you can imagine via DBS which is 480 lines. I unplugged the cable from the CATV from the back of my RCA DTC-100 because I never use it.

Bottom line of this post. I started thinking I was going to watch NTSC and VHS in my theater. The size of my screen make this impossible. So, I watch DVD's, DBS, and HDTV. Once you go to the screen size that the DILA can support, you end up changing your view of what are acceptable input sources.

Cheers,

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post #50 of 60 Old 05-04-2001, 06:20 AM
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I think that Don has some very good points on why the HTPC will not work for everybody. Heck if you have the money, a great setup would be a good DVD and Scaler and an HTPC. In my HT I also have a DVD/LD combo. I have scaled the DVD/LD output through my PC scaler and the results were very good. Therefore I think that the results would be very good with a CI too. I am also looking forward to seeing the Rock. It looks like it might be good too. So far the most impressive thing with my DILA is HDTV through my Dish6000 receiver. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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post #51 of 60 Old 05-04-2001, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Once again guys. Thanks..

Bernd, I plan to watch only DVD's and DBS Satellite both HD and standard Def on my G-15. I have absolutely no plans to watch Cable TV or VHS on this thing.

I am pleased to hear that the satellite (DBS) looks better than Cable TV looks on the projector.

Here is another question folks..

Can I download the Manual for a G-15 Anywhere?? Or detailed info sheets for a G-15??

Take care,

-- Cain


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post #52 of 60 Old 05-04-2001, 08:45 PM
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Cain,

Here is the definitive G15 page from JVC America.

And here is the other definitive G15 page from JVC Professional.

Finally, here is a tragic news story of a G15 exploding!

Sorry, but it was there in my bookmarks with the others http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Mark Hunter
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post #53 of 60 Old 05-05-2001, 02:05 AM
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I can't belief the vastness of the explosion caused by a D-ILA http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Did the man had a gastank next to his HT room?
Ky

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post #54 of 60 Old 05-05-2001, 02:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mark..

-- Cain
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post #55 of 60 Old 05-05-2001, 05:34 AM
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The equipment list for the HTPC setup should include your personal beeper and cellphone. (To keep your kids happy and your marriage intact)


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post #56 of 60 Old 05-05-2001, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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LOL...

Hi Laurence.. I'm certain the photo of the little girl was taken moments after she wanted to watch "Stuart Little" "Dinosaur" "Blues Clues Movie" or "Lady and the Tramp" but got a Memory allocation error, and needs to reboot or worse yet reformat the HD!! ;-)

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post #57 of 60 Old 05-05-2001, 09:31 AM
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Cain,

Here is a simple suggestion for you. Since you build PC's, I'll bet you have a PIII with a clock rate of &gt;733 and 128K of RAM lying around. I would not surprise me if you had such a PC with a DVD drive in it lying around. All you need is a GeForce or Radeon adapter which you can get for &lt; $200 and you can "try" the video part of the HTPC. A cheap soundcard, and you can get that as well. Once you have seen the video produced by the HTPC, then go "borrow" (buy with the right to return) a good DVD player and a Quadscan or a CI. Set them up and try them. If the HTPC is &gt;30% better than the DVD+Scaler, I would recommend trying to stabilize the HTPC in your environment and getting a Pronto. If the difference does not blow you away, then keep the DVD+Scaler.

Cheers,

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post #58 of 60 Old 05-05-2001, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Good advice Bernd. I had a P3-800 laying around until two weeks ago when I sold it!!

Is that the minimum speed I would need?? I'll likely go with BOTH a HTPC and a Scaler/DVD so I can have the best of both..

Thanks for the info and suggestions,

-- Cain

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post #59 of 60 Old 05-08-2001, 05:35 PM
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Cain,

A G15 PowerBuy just cropped up...

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post #60 of 60 Old 05-08-2001, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mark !!!!

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