Should I just break down and get a DILA ?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Am I simply avoiding the inevitable???

I'm getting tired of waiting for "the next big thing" only to find it was not any better than the existing DILAs.

Can I buy a scaler for a DILA or do I need to make a HTPC?? I build PCs all the time, so that is not a really large problem.

If I buy Milori's software can I do a callibration myself, or do I need test equpment to do it properly??

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post #2 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 05:59 AM
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Yes you should buy a dila.

new colorimeter post coming soon, very soon.
priced for the home market, and more accurate too.

yes you will be able to do calibrations in your own home.

without the risk now associated with shipping your projector
away for calibration via federal express, rps or ups
(see previous posts on what they do to plasma displays, and
how they do not honor insurance)
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post #3 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 06:53 AM
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Hi: I just purchased a 20 hr old JVC G11 several weeks ago. I couldn't be happier. I'm using it straight out of the box without an external scaler and a sheet of foam backed poster board for a temporary screen. I'm also using an RCA DTC100 for hdtv and a basic DVD player. I watched American Beauty in high definition 2 nights ago on HBO Direct TV. It was incredible!! The colors, shadows, details and realism--visibly better than a Madrigal MP-9/Faroudja 3000 on a Stewart screen playing American Beauty from DVD source!

I plan to build an htpc, eventually get a whisper flow hushbox and purchase a Stewart Grayhawk screen. The fun is knowing that it can only get even better!!

Good luck in your purchase decision.

Joe Andresen
Palo Alto, CA
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post #4 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 07:18 AM
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If the .80 cents per hour bulb cost doesn't scare you away, then I don't think you will find a better projector for the money. I want one very badly, but I know in my household the thing would be on for 8 hours a day. $180-$200 in bulb costs a month would drive me crazy. .25 cents per hour is the most I would pay (I can dream can't I). As we all know, perfection comes at a price http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif and D-ILA is as close to perfection as you can get right now.
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post #5 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 08:36 AM
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Kevin:

That's good to hear.

Chuck
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post #6 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 08:38 AM
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Yes

I am very happy with a Dukane 9015 (G15), CrystalImage, and RCA DTC100. Sometimes I dream of a Vigatec or HTPC, but my wife has to use the system also.

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post #7 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 11:10 AM
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Good question, Cain, I'm thinking the same thing. I always been bothered by having to hassle with overcoming the heat/noise, and the calibration issue, but now that I see rainbows up the wazoo on the Dwin, I may have to seriously consider the G15.
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post #8 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 11:49 AM
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All projectors have their pros and cons.

The D-ILA projectors have PROS in image quality areas, and CONS in some other areas. If you have a way to keep your D-ILA quiet and cool, you will just love the picture!

I cringe at all of rainbow artifact, screen door threads and am happy that I never have to think about things like that.

CRT is the other high quality image solution, but it has its own set of cons. There was a great debate in the CRT forum not long ago about the quality of a G15/HTPC combination ($11K) compared to a Sony G90/Faroudja combination (>$55K). To say that the two are even comparable is a testament to the D-ILA quality.

Of course, the extra >$40K will get you a better black level. No question about that.

Mark Hunter
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post #9 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 11:50 AM
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Congratulations, the exact same question I asked myself a month ago. I now own a G10.

The fan noise is not that big a deal, and IMO neither is the lamp life as long as its not your primary television. In my case, this was an easy limitation since I prefer to use it only a few nights/week. (I dont always like sitting in a cave http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif )

For me, it really came down to this question: Can I be happy paying quite a lot of money ($2K - $3K) for a TV that has not-insignificant visual flaws? And would I be happier paying 50% more for a nearly-perfect picture? I ultimately decided to spring for the latter.

Good used DILA deals pop up occasionally. Just make sure to stay away from Dukane or Panasonic if your purchasing a G10, since neither of them honor transferred warranties. If your looking at G11 or higher, you've only got one choice of company. Luckily, they seem to be very good about warranty transferral.

Andy K.
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post #10 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 01:47 PM
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Cain,

Think of it this way...

The longer you wait, the less time you will have had to experience theater bliss. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

The DILA is a good choice. I was really hoping that the DWIN and the HT250 were going to be the ones, but it just didn't come together as well as I had hoped. I am very happy with my G15 and I can't wait until I finish my HT so I can shine it on my GrayHawk screen. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Everybody that has seen it projected onto my office wall has been impressed though. Especially when I show them an HDTV clip.

Cameron

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post #11 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 01:59 PM
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Cameron, are you using your DILA "out of the box"? How important is calibration to the DILA, or is the picture good enough without it? Who does these calibrations nowadays - I thought I heard that some who used to do it are no longer performing the service?
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post #12 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. Like I said I am simply getting tired of waiting for "the next big thing"..

I have put off a decision on a projector for almost a year now, and I'm getting tired of it. Who knows I may get run over by a car tomorrow and will have never realized my dream of a nice FPHT.

The noise/heat for DILA is not a problem for me since I can do a installation similar to Mark Hunter's spiffy thru-the-wall install.

HDTV has now become an issue for me, since I will soon have access to HDTV HBO, and I'm certain DILA will be the best for that.

I can also live with the bulb cost, since this will not be my primary viewing for regular TV, I have a fairly new spiffy Pioneer Elite RPTV for that.

Thanks for the feedback guys, anyone else wanna jump in here??

How many of you guys use a conventional scaler and DVD player?? Will I really be better off with a HTPC??

- Cain

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post #13 of 60 Old 04-30-2001, 07:17 PM
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Smitty,

Right now I am using my DILA out of the box. I have one stuck on red pixel right now that is annoying me and I may just get it serviced before I get the projector calibrated. As for out of the box, it looks really really good already. My only complaint is shadow detail right now. The GrayHawk screen is supposed to help alot with that. Talk to Alan at AVS about calibration he can hook you up with the right folks. It is available again.

Also, it is looking like Dilard may be able to offer super good calibration capabilities in the near future. I may just hold out for a bit and see how it goes with that.

Anyway, out of the box I loved my G15. I saw a lot of setups in the local HT shops. So far the only one that has impressed me more is the Sony G90 CRT with a Faroudja 5000 processor. I wouldn't mind that setup. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif On the other hand, having a 200+ pound projector directly overhead would probably concern me quite a bit.

I have a great setup that I am working on right now for my DILA. The projector is actually locate in a dropped ceiling in a hall outside of my HT. Do a great job of muffling the sound. Plus the effect in the HT room is really cool too.

When I saw HDTV on my DILA, I almost died it was that good. Uhh it looked as good as that G90 I saw. The G90 did kick butt on DVD though.

Cameron

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post #14 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 08:44 AM
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Cain-

If HD is at all a consideration for you (which it appears to be), then I don't think you'll make a mistake going with the D-ILA. Hi Def on this projector is amazing. The DVD playback is top-notch too. My limited experience with these projectors however leads me to conclude that an HTPC (or another well mated scaler like a Quadscan or CI) is a must. The native res of the D-ILA is simply too high for its on board scaler to deal with, IMHO. Brian Vanderhaagen's setup included an HTPC, HiPix card, and DILARD. From what he explained, (and from what I saw), All three are necessary. (Of Course in your case, you'll use a DBS set-top box).

The only 2 things I viewed as drawbacks were the following:

1. There is a halo at the bottom of a 16:9 image which I found distracting. I would either mask this at the lens or get a Panamorph which will not only solve this problem, but let you utilize the full panel.

2. Normal NTSC looks kinda lousy. Granted Brian's setup only had a cable feed. DBS would likely look better. With your RPTV however, seems like most of your "casual" viewing will be done in another room.

Good luck. I may soon be joining you.

Kirk

[This message has been edited by Kirk (edited 05-01-2001).]
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post #15 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 08:51 AM
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Cain,

I also wanted to say that although I think that the DILA scaler stinks, it does an awesome job with a 1080i feed. I don't know why, but it really does and excellent job. I use an HTPC for DVD and other stuff. As for the HDTV, I just plug my Dish6000 unit directly into the G15. The results are awesome.

Cameron

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post #16 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Thx to everyone who has posted to this thread, I'm taking it all in and processing the info!!

-- Cain

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post #17 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 12:20 PM
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Can anyone else comment on what robena is saying? IME I would disagree, I find that the video input produces artifacts that I would more associate with bad scaling than bad deinterlacing (that is to say, I see more problems with blocky diagonal edges than I do with motion artifacts).

Is something like an iScan a good cheap match for a DILA?

Also, I would like to comment on the Greyhawk suggestion. Of course, it all depends on your screen size and room conditions as to whether or not an image is bright enough, but my G10 is certainly not what I would call a super-bright projector, nor do I expect a G11 to be. Maybe the G15 is. Definitely try to demo if you have enough brightness for a Greyhawk. For example, my G10 against a 9' wide 16x9 High Power screen (2.8 gain) is only what I would *just* call acceptably bright. Its bright enough not to lose any details in low level scenes, but I would easily prefer a much brighter image.

Andy K.
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post #18 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 12:39 PM
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Andy,

I have compared the output of the first Panasonic progressive scan player, and of the Ayre, to the ouptut of a Faroudja 3000, and the level of artifacts was essentially the same. I also tried to feed the 3000 with 480p, and saw no improvement compared to 480p sent directly to the projector. That does not mean that another external scaller won't perform better, only that the D-ILA scaller is at least on par with the Faroudja 3000 1280x1024 output.

I agree on your brightness comment, there is not such thing as too much light, not with the current technology.

------------------
Robert

[This message has been edited by robena (edited 05-01-2001).]

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post #19 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so if I want to watch DVD's and I get a progressive scan player, I'm fine with the basic G-15..

If I want to watch HDTV, I'm fine with the basic projector.

If I want to watch my old laser-discs, or NTSC TV I need some sort of scaler, correct???

Which one is the best bang for the buck these days?? (The room itself is gonna cost almost as much as my first house, so I'm looking to save some jack here ;-)

-- Cain

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post #20 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 09:03 PM
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Not trying to spend your money here but, but this is the list that most people seem happiest with in regards to DILA:
DILA projector
GrayHawk screen
scaler (from Quadscan, Crystal, Vigatec, Rock or Faroudja Native Rate (the Faroudja is brand new as is THE ROCK ) )
Panamorph or ISCO II lens
calibratiion
Dilard.

Although since you are starting out now if you go this route you might want to wait and see what Mark Hunter and Kevin Gilmore come up with in this regard. If you get Dilard you'll have what they accompolish since Mark does upgrades to Dilard periodically. Namely you may be able to calibrate your unit soon with Dilard, although they are being a bit mum about shading.

And it goes without saying you can find most of these things (except the Grayhawk and after market lens) at decent prices / deals.

We installed our unit last summer. We use it a lot (I think we do) and to date we have 670 hours on it. So if you buy a bulb once a year that's not too bad.

You might also want to watch the disucssion in the video processors forum on the three scalers that people seem to be watching closely (THE ROCK; VIGATEC and FAROUDJA NATIVE RATE).

HTH

Chuck
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post #21 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 09:14 PM
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Best scaler and best price: Home theater pc with Radeon Card

Can be built up for as little as $700 to $1000 or ready built for $1400 to $2000.

Custom settings to Dila's native resolution

Upgradeable at the drop of a hat

Plenty of support here or through AVS, digital connection for ready made
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post #22 of 60 Old 05-01-2001, 09:24 PM
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To correct a misconception: the D-ILA scaller is great. It's only the 480i deinterlacing which is awful, due to its lack of 3:2 inverse telecine. A D-ILA works better with a progressive 480p DVD player than with an interlaced DVD 480i player + Faroudja 3000.

An external scaller will only be needed to watch LDs or plain NTSC TV.


------------------
Robert

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post #23 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 03:23 AM
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Bluhorizon I do not comprehend your answer how is a PC scaler to help old laser-discs, or NTSC TV I?
Ky

What you see, will never be what you see
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post #24 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 06:19 AM
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Bluhorizon,

You left out the best feature of the HTPC: You need never worry about wife using the HT. No one except for you will be able to figure out how to use the thing without an eight hour course. While this may lead to some minor marital or parenting problems it will leave the HT open for your use. This is an expecially good thing since you will have added time for television after the family leaves. Tongue firmly in cheek, Art.
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post #25 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 07:27 AM
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Good point, Art.

To make it even more family-proof, make sure that the configuration changes daily...just in case someone starts to figure it out.

I have found that if you need to write some computer code to get things "ready", it further helps with the job security. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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post #26 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 07:52 AM
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Cain,

I just learned that a replacement for the G15 is imminent. It will be more oriented for HT that the current Gnn series. I would not buy a new G15 right now. Either you will find them at a discounted price soon, or you will have a better projector for the same price. I don't have anymore specifics.

------------------
Robert

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post #27 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 08:02 AM
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Robert,

I know you said that you don't have more details, but you are going to have to give us more.

We all know that JVC was working on another DILA projector, but Tom from JVC told us time and time again, that we would be much better off with the G11 or G15.

Therefore it would be good to know if you are talking about that one or if there is something else coming.

In the event that there is something new, from what I have seen it takes the projector manufacturers a good year from the time that they make announcements of the newer better thing until it is released. Then when it is released, it is not always quite as good as it was hyped.

If it were different than that, I would have owned a DWIN or HT250 sometime last September. I was holding out for the next best thing for a while and when those came up, they weren't the next best thing.

OK I am babbling. I will shut up now.

Cameron

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post #28 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 01:32 PM
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For scaling NTSC and other sources like VCR - Laser disk with an HTPC:
Add a tuner card (Brooktree) that excepts S-video input, install dTV (deinterlacer) freeware and feed it thru your normal video feed to the DILA. Does a superb job; at least as good as external scalers.

ken
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post #29 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 01:45 PM
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There were a couple of interesting posts by Julio de la Orden and Tom Stites on the new M2000 and 150 models. See the end of this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/005844.html

Sounds very promising!

Cheers,
Dave.
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post #30 of 60 Old 05-02-2001, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cain:
Ok, so if I want to watch DVD's and I get a progressive scan player, I'm fine with the basic G-15..
</font>
I have not had the luck that Robena has had using a progressive scan DVD player with my 9000D (G10). Scaling artifacts are easily seen and are quite distracting. He must have stumbled on some combination of gear that works well, but the majority of Dila owners posting on the AVS Forum would, I believe, recommend using an external scaler or a HTPC.

Even if you don't use a HTPC for the DVD playback, you should consider a computer for running Dilard.

Jeff Streitz
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