TI announces 16:9 DLP projectors with 848x480 resolution - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 62 Old 05-04-2001, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Press Release: First native 16:9 DLP technology for home cinema
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post #2 of 62 Old 05-04-2001, 09:25 PM
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at the resolution of 848x480, I think I'll wait and stick with a 1080i dila.
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post #3 of 62 Old 05-04-2001, 10:09 PM
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What is TI thinking???

I guess they want to give the market to JVC. Of course, JVC doesn't seem to know what to do with all the marketing mis-steps that TI keeps making. Eventually one of these companies is going to realize that the best way to make the biggest boat load of money is to give the consumer what they want at an affordable price.
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post #4 of 62 Old 05-04-2001, 11:28 PM
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This is such a typical blunder for TI.

The competitor is raising the stakes with higher resolution displays at a lower cost, and TI produces a chip that maxes out at DVD resolution, down from their 1024 X 768 models that are already below both LCD and D-ILA competitors. Sheesh!

I know that they are doing this to define the lower-end of the product line, and differentiate the SDTV-only models from the commercial 1280 capable 3-chip models used for E-Cinema applications.

But the ONLY selling point of these chips (whether in RPTVs or FPTVs) is if they could sell displays based on them REALLY cheap, like $1200-2000.

DLP History:

LCD: "I have a V4"
DLP: "Well I have a V6"
LCD: "Well I now have a V8"
DLP: "Well I now have a V6!"
LCD/D-ILA: "Well now we have a V12!"
DLP: "Well now I have a V5!, so there!"

-Dean.
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post #5 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 04:58 AM
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I think TI is simply trying to maximize profits by squeezing as many 0.7" chips out of a wafer that they can.

In the process they may be squeezing themselves out of the market!!!

Dumb move TI, the venerable Sony 400Q had a better 1080 x 480 delta pixel structure that was highly visible IMO from normal viewing distances and lacked detail because of the vertical pixel count (among other reasons). I don't think the higher fill rate of DMD will help TI in this case.

Thumpers 2c
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post #6 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 05:39 AM
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Perhaps this device is aimed more towards small RPTV's. I'd take 852x480 on a 40" TV. Also, when compared to the amount of pixels used by displaying 16:9 letterboxed on current 1024x768 4:3 DMD's...852x480 doesnt look so bad.

jason
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post #7 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 07:08 AM
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I think the 848x480 chip is a terrific idea for those of us who watch DVDs and non-HDTV. The resolution of the source material would be matched by the projector without scaling errors. Is there any benefit in higher resolution if the source material is 480?
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post #8 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 08:28 AM
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I'm all for 848x480 chips if they are cheaper!

I read several posts in this forum comparing the Infocus LP340 (SVGA) and 350 (XVGA). The consensus is that the added resolution doesn't improve DVD playback.

I don't watch HDTV, so the added resolution (and expense) isn't necessary. I think a scaler-less, small, bright, 848x480 DLP projector
would be a terrific idea. I've got high hopes for the Plus Piano and the SIM2 HT 200DM. BTW, any word on the prices of these projectors?
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post #9 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 10:34 AM
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I agree with a couple of points made here.

This chip will be great for dvd and dvd only but you will have to stick with a smaller screen so you do not see the screen door effect. I prefer a larger screen myself.

If TIs marketing excuse is true that this is their miada chip because of its low resolution then I also hope we do not find the cost of FP using this chip in the same price range as the higher resolution projectors.
If so there will be no reason to buy this unit if for the same price you can buy the 1024 unit from Seleco or Dwin.

With all the new scaler technology on the market the higher resolution units are no longer suffering from scaling deficiencies.

You definitely get a smoother picture, more film like from the 1024 chip. Case in point the dila.

What we need is a HT dlp in the presentation price range. Current dlp projectors designed for HT such as the Dwin and Seleco are selling to a very small niche and will never make it into the main stream until pricing drops to at least half. You can currently buy the Dila for half the cost of both
the Dwin/Seleco.


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[This message has been edited by Alan Gouger (edited 05-05-2001).]
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post #10 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alan Gouger:

You can currently buy the Dila for half the cost of both the Dwin/Seleco.
</font>
Alan,

could you please elaborate on that? Or did you mean half the cost of both the Dwin/Seleco?

Holger
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post #11 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 10:54 AM
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Sorry to be a little backwards, but the only benefit that I can see, is that this chip can do 240Hz.
How can they say it's a widescreen chip if its 848x600 on 1:33 and 848x480 on 1:78.
Now dumb question's are dumb question's but how can a square (1:33:1) have more pixels if this is a true widescreen chip (1:78:1) ?
Forgive me if I am off target here, but something fails the reality test in my old brain.

DavidW

[This message has been edited by David Wallis (edited 05-05-2001).]
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post #12 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 12:58 PM
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You can call me paranoid, but I think that this is a sign of the MPAA's pressuring to keep all home video presentations under 800 X 600 resolution, and kill off HDTV.

It would be a hard sell to get people out into traditional theaters (which many will be converting to digital projection) if you can get the same quality picture at home with a HD-DVD player (which they are also trying to prevent from being released), and high resolution digital projector.

So the MPAA has been working with the cable companies to keep the maximum digital movie resolution to 640 X 480p, offering cheaper SDTV displays, and institute DVI/HDCP, DFAST, and 5C/Firewire encrypted DTV connections to change everything to pay-per-view. And have DVD stay the highest resolution media for home viewing.

Sure, most people only watch DVDs at home, but three years ago most people hadn't even heard of DVDs, and all watched VHS tapes, so no one needed higher resolution or widescreen displays then.

Likewise, most people watch TV using the TV's speakers, so would you rather see reciever manufacturers stop supporting DD 5.1 or DTS audio because many people won't use it, and it's cheaper?

Or do you want the product with the best quality and features to drop in price, only to be be replaced by a newer product with better specs, quality and features, for less money.

If this is a move to create low-cost (sub $1500) entry-level RPTV or FPTV filler products to entice people who would buy a tube TV, or NTSC-only TV, then I think it's great.

But if it's lowering the standard to draw us away from wanting HDTV at home, then it's counterproductive and short sighted.

For those of you that have seen HDTV, or even good scaled DVDs on a higher resolution display, you know what I mean.

-Dean.
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post #13 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 01:48 PM
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Paranoid !!!

Why just because we have "NO"
Digital Video out.
Digital Multichannel 96/24 out.
High resoluton 1:78 DLP's.
No HD-Dvd.
Virtually No HD Recorders. (Panasonic 1000 no NLA)
Firewire standard. etc etc

Why would you be "Paranoid".
MPAA !!! (I think they are the Paranoid Ones)


DavidW

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post #14 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 01:58 PM
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Holger

The Dwin retails for $12999 and the Seleco retails for $11999.
While this is retail they street for a little less. We were selling the G11 new for $6k. You can still find them at this price once in awhile
and in b stock for $5k if you look around.


Again this new chip needs to be priced according!
Because it is a HT chip we will not see this in any presentation units.
That means companies like Seleco/Dwin/Yamaha who are building for this HT market will be using this chip.

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[This message has been edited by Alan Gouger (edited 05-05-2001).]
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post #15 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 02:14 PM
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Hi Alan,

there is a big difference regarding prices in Europe. A SIM HT200 has a retail price of $6400,- , a SIM HT250 lists at $8400,-. A JVC G-15 I saw at a price of $12800,-. These differences exists because of the high $-rate of exchange and shipping/taxes.

Greetings, Walter.

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post #16 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 02:53 PM
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Alan,

thanks for your explanation. I wasn't aware that there were any G11s still around. Walter explained why things look differently from this side of the Atlantic Ocean.

(It is just so that after reading your original post, I had this image in my mind of somebody double-stacking a Seleco and a Dwin to get the ultimate picture quality. It might actually reduce the color wheel artifacts - now that's an idea.)

Holger
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post #17 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 02:54 PM
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Hi Walter

I was quoting a G11. The G15 is pricy here as well.

My point was not to say Dila is better but that it is a much higher resolution unit for less money! I hope this lower res chip ships in a cheaper FP model. If so it could be a big hit in the HT industry. If they price it to match current pricing it will fail.

The new 1024x768 Davis DLP which will ship in a couple of months will retail for $8k so it will street for much less and this unit offers everything. This unit also uses the new RGBRGB color wheel.




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post #18 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 03:13 PM
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Hello Alan,

as far as I know the new Davis Cinema Ten Pro will be shipping at July and will cost about $6800,- in Germany. There is a big difference in pricing comparing Europe/US regarding SIM and Davis. I think I will go for the new SIM HT200DM. The internal scaling works very well for PAL-sources and the Dila units need a good outboard-scaler, which increases the price.

Greetings, Walter.

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post #19 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 06:37 PM
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Wow $6800.

We must be paying a VAT/import tax or something here in the states which
causes our higher pricing.

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post #20 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 08:30 PM
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Dean,
I also dont think youre paranoid- thats a great point I never considered.

We should monitor what happens with the DILA rptvs to see if something similar happens- if it does then you know its the MPAA....

- Jerry
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post #21 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 09:32 PM
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Flame suit on!

I think everyone is dreaming about both HD-DVD and HDTV. There simply isn't going to be the required mass market for either, particularly the former. Standard DVD is rapidly becoming entrenched like VHS. There are simply going to be very few homes that have the large enough screen size and video processing gear to support going beyond standard DVD IMHO.

Ditto with HDTV. The rate of changeover to HDTV among consumers is miniscule. All the introduction of HDTV sets did was drive standard big screens down in price so the public is buying these.

The broadcasters are on track to get away with using the larger bandwith for transmitting more standard digital channels.

You guys with your D-ilas in a few big cities who are watching HDTV now, enjoy. It probably won't be around for long, bummer!

Dan

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post #22 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 09:37 PM
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Walter
If this is the retail then what is the street price ? European equipment is a lot more expensive here in the USA .I guess US based gear is more expensive in Europe as well ?
The HT250 lists for $11995 here.

DavidW


QUOTE
"A SIM HT200 has a retail price
of $6400,- , a SIM HT250 lists at $8400,"
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post #23 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 09:46 PM
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Hi,

I think there is a misunderstanding about the resolution of the new SVGA-DLP HT-engine. TI claims that it is used by the new Plus, InFocus and SIM HT200DM. The new SIM has a panel-resolution of 848X600, but uses on the one hand 800x600 for 4:3 and on the other hand 848x480 for 16:9 - so all 480 NTSC-lines are used ( but not in PAL, there are 576 lines ).

Greetings, Walter.

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post #24 of 62 Old 05-05-2001, 09:53 PM
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My first response to this news was "blech"...

But on second thought, since the high-end projectors don't do what I want yet, maybe this would be a good throwaway projector for the next two years. Bright, light, simple, and cheap would do until the bigger toys mature http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif.
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post #25 of 62 Old 05-06-2001, 12:02 AM
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Dan,

I'm sure that the MPAA appreciates your sentiments.

I remember hearing similar comments about the pointlessness of DVDs in 1997. Since the vast majority of viewers were (and still are) watching their movies on VHS tape, DD 5.1 and DTS recievers weren't widely available for home use, and the movie collector's market was already satisfied by laserdiscs.

Most importantly, unlike VHS tapes, you couldn't record onto DVDs, which most people saw as a deal breaker for DVD. And there was DIVX out there as an alternate format too (backed by the MPAA), and most studios were not producingtheir movies on DVD.

So the future of DVD didn't look too good at the time.
But today the story is different.

Personally, I don't think that Sinclair, the cable companies, and the MPAA's combined efforts to ignore/control HDTV will kill it.
But their lack of support has, and will continue to delay HDTV's adoption.

Although HDTV looks fantastic on a big screen, everyone forgets that they are all reading this post on a HDTV capable display.

I believe that the larger success of HDTV will be through the internet and PCs because as the media bandwidth increases HD movie transfers/streaming will become possible.

Of course this is the MPAA's greatest fear. That there will appear a HD Napster to allow worldwide digital distribution of THEIR movies in perfect HD format.

And so they are going to extreme methods to keep the genie in the bottle. Including making deals with the broadcasters, cable companies, and consumer electronics manufacturers to limit themselves to SDTV resolution products, and allow proprietary digital encryption to lock down DTV displays.

But there is always some uppity (enterprising) small manufacturer who will innovate, when the giants drop the ball. And even though the MPAA may have many industry leaders and the FCC in their pocket, the larger market for digital displays will remain the computer industry, which will not stop competing with better technology and higher resolution regardless of Hollywood's fears of potential media piracy.

So higher resolution, lower cost displays ARE coming, and HDTV isn't just going away just because special interests want to control the DTV market.

Outside of the FCC, there are people in government who understand that having the U.S. develop and push ahead HDTV products and services will provide industry and technology opportunities, just as the space race has done over the last four decades.

And now it is not the time to concede that 480i/p is the best that we need at home, just as mono audio, B&W TV, and vinyl records were pronounced just fine when better technologies were offered.

There is a hard enough fight ahead for HDTV to succeed at becoming tomorrow's TV standard without conceeding to lessor technologies/capabilities now.

-Dean.

[This message has been edited by Dean McManis (edited 05-06-2001).]
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post #26 of 62 Old 05-06-2001, 05:02 PM
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Dean:
You understand I'm not advocating what I think is going to happen. I'm just being pessimistic. Look how long we've been stuck with analog NTSC and VHS. I just think the same thing is going to happen again--we'll be looking at regular old DVD for a long, long time to come. It is such a quantum leap for the Joe Sixpack crowd, that is now finally converting to it, they just won't be interested in spending more money. Standard DVD is going mainstream precisely because it offers a big difference for people even using regular TVs and relatively cheap surround sound systems.

The analogy is CD. That was a quantum leap from vinyl and you'll notice it is in no danger of being replaced any time soon. It's like when most people get enough house, they are no longer interested in spending a lot more money for an incremental improvement.

What could happen with HD-DVD is that it could become a high-priced speciality item for videophiles who won't mind spending $40 for a disk because they spent $10 grand on their display. In other words, it might end up being like those big video disks before DVD that never really got beyond a relatively small group of well-heeled users.

IMHO, HD, TV or DVD is too big of a financial jump for the mass market for the degree of improvement added. That's why it is not going to go anywhere. I don't think MPAA will have to stop it, I think it will just be too uneconomic to catch on.

Dan

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post #27 of 62 Old 05-06-2001, 05:42 PM
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Dan,

I understand your viewpoint, and there is much that is true about it.

But CDs aren't a good example for a product that needs to be changed, because other than specialized audio formats, there is nothing the offers a head and shoulders advantage over CD so far.

DVDs are a better example, because there was little support or available movies 3 years ago, and competing standards (DIVX), plus some quality issues initially made it look like DVD might not succeed, except as a niche market.

I remember when Spielberg said that he wouldn't be releasing his movies on DVD until the player sales reached 2 million units, which was slow in coming, but now there are well over 17 million DVD players sold, only a couple years later.

The key is that everything in electronics starts out expensive initially, with only rich people and avid enthusiasts willing to pay the bucks for the picture or sound improvement.

But then after a couple years, the production efficiency is improved, and the prices drop, and eventually the higher quality products come out at ordinary consumer prices.

Plus as new technologies find interest, momentum builds for the product.
Nobody would have ever guessed 15 years ago that there would be a market for $40k trucks, so $2500 for a HDTV is not entirely out of line.

Sure, my mom won't spend more than $800 for a TV, but it's not unforseeable that 32" tube DTV displays could hit the &gt;$800 mark within 3 years, with built-in HD decoders.

We just need to encourage innovative new products, and educate people about what future technology is promising, and what is just marketing hype, and political manuevering.

After you have lived with HDTV for a while, it sets your expectation for more. and while the future for DTV is not guaranteed, I think that it has as much chance to succeed as DVDs and DD 5.1/DTS recievers have.

-Dean.
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post #28 of 62 Old 05-06-2001, 08:23 PM
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How much of the success of DVD had to do with increased quality, though? Personally, I think the success of DVD has a lot more to do with the fact that it's just a much better overall medium for distributing movies. Smaller form factor, random-access, all the extra features, etc. I'm not sure that the average consumer even knows how much better DVD is than VHS.

One problem with HDTV is that it's hard to see a real improvement in picture quality from a typically-sized TV viewed from a typical distance.

How much improvement in apparent picture will a 32" HDTV have from 8' away?

.88888
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post #29 of 62 Old 05-06-2001, 09:25 PM
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Hello David,

the streetprices for the SIM's are are similar to the list price - no big difference. Yes, US built units are much more expensive here in Europe - 1.5 - 1.8 times the US price - because of high taxes and shipping.

There is already an economical war between Europe-E.C., the US and Japan/Asia. We consumers have to pay the high prices because of protective duties, if we want the products from oversea and I want them...

Because of lacking HDTV in Europe, there isn't already any announcement for the future at the time, JVC Dila's have very small presence in the HT-market in Austria/Germany and the necessary picture-tweaking is only the 2nd problem, if anybody see a Dila unit at a fair.

Best regards, Walter

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post #30 of 62 Old 05-06-2001, 09:48 PM
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I agree that this chip will be destined for low-end products designed for 40" or less (RPTV), where the additional resolution won't be missed and where low cost will aid in the adoption of 16:9 HDTV-capable sets (all downconverted to 480i/p, of course.

It's true that until you blow up your picture to 50" or greater, you don't notice the limitations of DVD; on my 130" 16:9 screen, DVD's limited resolution is PAINFULLY noticeable. Even a 7" CRT 55" 16:9 RPTV doing 1080i really opened my eyes to what HDTV could do. I can't wait to try it on my 8" CRT FPTV at 130"!!!

David
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Closed Thread Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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