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post #1 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 02:39 AM - Thread Starter
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epson ls9600e

I have a 5010, which is ok. I am thinking of upgrading. I want my next projector to be a lot quieter, much quicker-on, show a little bigger image on shorter distances (tried external lens, but did not like it), and perhaps have a better fill rate (and less visible convergence from close up). you may note that picture quality improvement is notably not on my list. the 5010 picture looks pretty good to me. yes, better is better, but this is not key for me.

the new epson ls10000 and ls9600e seem to do it all (except for convergence errors and inconsistency coming from the factory if http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...10000_test.htm is to be believed)...but they are also quite expensive. given that pict quality is not so high on my wish list, the cheaper 9600e would perhaps be better, but while the ls10000 is priced competitively with other 4k projectors, the ls 9600e does not seem to be priced anywhere competitive with other equal-class 1080 projectors. the review sites all more or less say "if you are going to spend this kind of money, spend the extra $2k to get the real deal" and "the 9600e has a tough positioning in the market-place."

how is the 9600e doing in the market-place? is its price coming down?
maybe I can pick one up when the next gen epson lasers comes out.?!

/iaw
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post #2 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 07:07 AM
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I don't get how the 10000 is better or as you word it the real deal. If I were going to buy one of these, the real better or real deal would be the one without the poorly implemented e shift. I could live with the slightly less lumens out of the cheaper machine. All in all the cheaper one is a better machine and is a real deal given also that the distribution is a lot broader and deals can be better negotiated.
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post #3 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 09:48 AM
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Also keep in mind the P3 color space of the ls10000 is of debatable use given it results in 25% lumens loss. Also the eshift is only really needed if you have a very large screen with close seating where you notice SDE.

So if you can get the 9600e for a good price I'd go for it.
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post #4 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 09:57 AM
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The eshift issue is only noticeable if you look at static text from a couple of feet away. Even then the loss in sharpness is very minor. Also the improvements from P3 will be evident on any size screen. So unless you have a really large screen, the loss of brightness in P3 mode will not be that much of a handicap.
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post #5 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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from projector central,
Quote:
Where the LS9600e runs into trouble is price-competitiveness. The Sony HW55ES is priced $2,000 less than the LS9600e, and the price difference can be difficult to justify since the picture quality is almost identical...On the other hand, if you've already decided to go at least $5,999 for the LS9600e, Epson's flagship LS10000 with 4K Enhancement takes picture quality into a completely different league for just $2,000 more. Side by side viewing of Blu-ray material on the LS10000 against either the 9600e or the Sony HW55ES shows the LS10000 to be in an obvious class by itself. Any serious videophile who can spare the incremental $2,000 to gain this whole new level of image definition is well advised to do so.
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post #6 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivo welch View Post
from projector central,
From that it sounds like the key to whether a person considers the LS10000 to be worth $2k more is whether they believe the LS10000 with e-shift enabled is in a different league than the LS10000 without e-shift enabled.

With the JVCs I never felt that enabling the e-shift put them in a different league than not (or even really much improvement at all), but maybe it was the conditions which I tried these under.

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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
The eshift issue is only noticeable if you look at static text from a couple of feet away. Even then the loss in sharpness is very minor. Also the improvements from P3 will be evident on any size screen. So unless you have a really large screen, the loss of brightness in P3 mode will not be that much of a handicap.
The example of displaying text to show the loss of optical sharpness was to easily show someone what the issue looked like. The loss of optical sharpness with eshift enabled certainly doesn't only effect text, but any and all content shown when eshift is enabled. The softness issue is not a processing issue but a physical one that effects anything on screen. But the issue is most obvious with text.

The best way to describe it is that it looks like someone defocused the lens by a couple clicks on the remote without a way to focus the image properly. We tried to refocus the image again with eshift enabled but weren't able to get it any better. At first I thought there might have been some sort of lens memory functionality that kicked in when you enable eshift and that the projector had messed with the focus adjustment. But that turned out to not be true. This leads me to believe the eshift device itself is causing the issue. As soon as you disable eshift the image is super sharp again without touching the focus. On a JVC with eshift enabled there is certainly a loss of pixel structure and text doesn't look as "pixelated" as it did but it certainly doesn't look out of focus.

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post #8 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 12:11 PM
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Trust me, ivo, the e-shift issue is no big deal. I've looked at it several times on my LS10000 with different content. Some guys are perfectionists that let perfection get in the way of the very, very good and other important features. BTW, you should be able to find the LS10000 or LS9600e for at least $1000 off of MSRP.
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post #9 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Trust me, ivo, the e-shift issue is no big deal. I've looked at it several times on my LS10000 with different content. Some guys are perfectionists that let perfection get in the way of the very, very good and other important features. BTW, you should be able to find the LS10000 or LS9600e for at least $1000 off of MSRP.
I'm not trying to say that one might not care about the issue. You're a perfect example of this. I just think it's important to note that it isn't an issue on JVCs implementation and that someone in the market looking at both projectors should know about it when they ultimately decided on which projector to buy. Optically the JVC does a better job when eshift is enabled. It's important to note things that aren't quite right with projectors because these days it's mostly about the small stuff with which people choose a projector. All of these units look fantastic.

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post #10 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 12:50 PM
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Seegs, I don't have any problem with what you just said, it's just that normally when you bring this up, you state it as though eshift on the LS10000's is a fatal flaw that makes eshift completely unusable. The most dramatic thing I see when I turn on eshift is the space between pixels is filled, but this is what is supposed to happen. I can't see any loss of sharpness worth mentioning (who knows, maybe my non-eshift sharpness isn't what it should be).


What I'm surprised you don't mention more often about the LS10000 eshift is the 100 msec of additional video delay it needs to scale 1080P to 4K. This brings the total video delay up to about 230 msec which is more than my Anthem 310 can handle, so for now, I don't normally use eshift. My understanding (and hope) is the extra 100 msec of eshift delay will go away once I start inputting 4K sources, otherwise I'll have to get an external audio delay box.
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post #11 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
The eshift issue is only noticeable if you look at static text from a couple of feet away. Even then the loss in sharpness is very minor. Also the improvements from P3 will be evident on any size screen. So unless you have a really large screen, the loss of brightness in P3 mode will not be that much of a handicap.
Depending on screen size and gain, the 25% lumen loss can be enough of a problem to render P3 mute. The Sony VW1100 has the same problem. Same reason why some VW1100 owners do not use 3D on their projectors, stating the image is too dim.

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post #12 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 01:35 PM
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But to put things into perspective, even with the P3 filter in place, the VW1100Es can still do 1100+ lumens. For 2D viewing this is still more than most current home theater projectors put out for REC709.
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post #13 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 01:48 PM
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But to put things into perspective, even with the P3 filter in place, the VW1100Es can still do 1100+ lumens. For 2D viewing this is still more than most current home theater projectors put out for REC709.
Yes, but most buyers of projectors like the VW1100 (at least most of my customers) have larger screens and many of them can't afford the loss of lumens for 3D and some will not be able to afford the 30/35% loss of lumens for P3.

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post #14 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 01:56 PM
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1100 lumens is enough for a 10' wide 16/9 screen and 12' wide scope screen with an anamorphic lens. Most of your 1100es customers have screens larger than this? This is with a 18-19ftL starting point on a unity gain screen which will dim to a degree over time, but your average 1100ES owner has the cash for spare bulbs. Or you can get a moderately high gain screen (1.3) and be perfectly fine with the P3 filter in place if you set things up properly. You'd start out with roughly 24ftL. That's bright.

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post #15 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 01:58 PM
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For the P3 movies we are likely to get starting at the end of this year and over the next several years, you can "suffer with a dimmer image. Your eyes wil adjust. while you might feel it is not as bright as you would like, it will be quite watchable. Take a rec 709 source and set the color space to DCI. The colors will be noticeably wrong because of the source color space coding but it will be bright enough from your 1000/1100ES to watch and enjoy, very likely.

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post #16 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 03:47 PM
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Yes, but most buyers of projectors like the VW1100 (at least most of my customers) have larger screens and many of them can't afford the loss of lumens for 3D and some will not be able to afford the 30/35% loss of lumens for P3.
Say I went to movie theater and the movie was showing on 2 screens, and one was 30% dimmer than the other. After watching 1 hr in the bright theater, I go to the concession stand to buy some more popcorn. When I come back I accidentally go to the dimmer theater. I'm not so sure I would notice the brightness difference.

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post #17 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 04:45 PM
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You probably were not on a date. Imagine if you sat down in the dark in the second theater and gave the woman next to you a kiss or something even more intimate.
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post #18 of 27 Old 07-01-2015, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
1100 lumens is enough for a 10' wide 16/9 screen and 12' wide scope screen with an anamorphic lens. Most of your 1100es customers have screens larger than this? This is with a 18-19ftL starting point on a unity gain screen which will dim to a degree over time, but your average 1100ES owner has the cash for spare bulbs. Or you can get a moderately high gain screen (1.3) and be perfectly fine with the P3 filter in place if you set things up properly. You'd start out with roughly 24ftL. That's bright.
A lot of 12' wide scope screens. Many of them AT. Some woven and some ST130 microperf (1.17 gain). A few larger.

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post #19 of 27 Old 07-02-2015, 07:19 AM
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Every projector out there regardless of the light source it uses will put out less light when calibrated to P3 (assuming it can be calibrated to P3) than similarly calibrated to rec 709. Doesn't matter even if its LEDs, the light loss will be in the neighborhood of 30%. And at rec 709 we are talking for these P3 capable machines (and only the Sony is a true 4K machine) a maximum of around say 1500 lumens at rec 709. No machine will put out its rated lumens once calibrated and most machines lose lumens in the 30 to 40% range going from short to long throw and light output considerations aside, every machine will perform best at long throw. Obviously, more lumens to start with is better providing one is not a black level fanatic. Regardless, a difference of a few hundred lumens will mean nothing to ones eyes. Remember, to lok twice as bright one has to quadruple the lumens. Good luck with that.

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post #20 of 27 Old 07-02-2015, 10:15 AM
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Every projector out there regardless of the light source it uses will put out less light when calibrated to P3 (assuming it can be calibrated to P3) than similarly calibrated to rec 709. Doesn't matter even if its LEDs, the light loss will be in the neighborhood of 30%. And at rec 709 we are talking for these P3 capable machines (and only the Sony is a true 4K machine) a maximum of around say 1500 lumens at rec 709. No machine will put out its rated lumens once calibrated and most machines lose lumens in the 30 to 40% range going from short to long throw and light output considerations aside, every machine will perform best at long throw. Obviously, more lumens to start with is better providing one is not a black level fanatic. Regardless, a difference of a few hundred lumens will mean nothing to ones eyes. Remember, to lok twice as bright one has to quadruple the lumens. Good luck with that.
Yep, it is about the same as the difference between high and low lamp. In some people's setup's they are not satisfied with the image in low lamp so they use high lamp. So now the choice will be use the P3 filter with high lamp and you have the brightness off the screen you get when watching 1080P content in low lamp or not use the P3 filter and watch in high lamp to get your brightness back. Brightness is addicting and hard to give up.

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post #21 of 27 Old Yesterday, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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p3 = it may be a blessing in disguise that I am among the 1-5% of the population that cannot know what you are talking about---color blind. alas, they don't make discounted projectors for the likes of me, nor do the experts tell the likes of me how to calibrate a projector differently.

I think I will try to wait until the next generation (November?) and then pick up a discounted version of this year's epson ls9600e or ls10000. from what I gather, they are both pretty great devices.
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I doubt a next gen Epson will be released this year since these just came out around the beginning of year? Maybe fall of 2016 they will release a next gen and true UHD version. I would guess the prices will drop on the current models.

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Quote:
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p3 = it may be a blessing in disguise that I am among the 1-5% of the population that cannot know what you are talking about---color blind. alas, they don't make discounted projectors for the likes of me, nor do the experts tell the likes of me how to calibrate a projector differently.

I think I will try to wait until the next generation (November?) and then pick up a discounted version of this year's epson ls9600e or ls10000. from what I gather, they are both pretty great devices.



Are you completely color blind? I have to deviate from the meter readings to compensate for the very yellow cataract in one of my eyes. But I have one non yellow cataract with which to compare meter calibration to the extra blue cranked in t compensate for the yellow seeing other eye.


Are the Epson's pretty great? I think they are pretty but the are certainly less than great. They are OK but nothing special. There are probably better choices out there for the same money but it depends on the qualities you want in a projector.

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post #24 of 27 Old Today, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you completely color blind?
some kind of normal red-green color weakness.
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The problem with trying to correct the colors on a display so that you see the colors actually displayed is just a severe case affecting almost everyone else especially the older folks here who have yellowed cataracts. The color probe needs to be behind your eyes and not in front of them. If your eyes are severely off the only benefit of calibration is a lame ass excuse to make you see the colors incorrectly the same way you see them incorrectly in real life rather than on a display. Rather lame given different real life lighting but it keeps the calibration industry happy.




As I said, I with only one yellow cataract eye and one new non yellowed cataract can utilize the full spectrum of calibration equipment and software to keep the industry well and alive by calibrating for my good eye. The witch craft portion of my calibration is factoring the yellowed eye input into my brain and compensating or offsetting the divine holy calibration to account for the other eye's input into my brain. The brain sums the two eyes. Shutting one eye and seeing the colors looks completely different than compared to the other eye and the both eyes wired open is a third color spectrum. So I keep the calibrated settings for the good eye and set up a both eyes wired open setting that is uncalibrated except by eye. Starting with the good eye settings and then cranking in blue, looking with both eyes, checking with the good eye only open and the calibration industries calibration and going back and forth so the both eyes wired open colors look the same to my brain as the calibrated one eyed setting.


You obviously have a greater problem having no reference to what is correct. It would seem safe if you really don't see much red and green to just crank in red and green gain and see how that looks any different to you. Chances are if that causes you to more easily differentiate between red and green vs blue, just watch fully cranked. Remember when you have guests, go back to normal as I do and just suffer in silence but keep your guests happy.

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Normally I'm not a huge stickler when it comes to color. My personal take on it is that if skin tones look "normal" and in general things look okay, that's fine with me. Most projectors that we talk about here in the $3000+ forum come out of the box fairly accurate. Accurate enough to not offend the vast majority of end users.

Though, P3 will make a decent increase in perceived colors. Yellow and green I would image will stick out the most in the upgrade as those two colors seem to benefit most from the larger gamut.

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It will be yellow, red, and orange. Have additional shades of darker green will not be that noticeable. I am working on a movie script for my book which is destined to become a best seller, The Fifty Shades of Green.

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