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post #1 of 8 Old 07-21-2015, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Dynamic range

I'm buying my first projector and had a question re dynamic range. I'm considering the x500r/x700r or the vw350es (600es out of my $). I understand the black level advantages of the JVC, but I'm wondering how this affects shadow details - I've read some reviews that claim vw350es articulates more, presumably because it's an overall brighter and flatter image. I've seen images of the JVC that do look a little crushy in the darks. On the flipside, I've seen some photos of brighter projectors (Art's LS10000 review) where it looked like the highlights were clipping. I know, I know, photographs all! this could be imperfect camera exposure etc.

Am I just misguided here? Is this a gamma issue with the full latitude of the image available after some digging? Do people favor punch over information loss? If I'm calibrating for a high latitude image do I lose the black level advantage of JVC? Or is it generally true that projectors don't quite match the full DR of some deep DR content? I say this in full knowledge, also, that there are a million factors in play, such as how the footage was exposed, how it was graded, the native latitude of the camera, how it was transferred, etc. etc. I'd be curious to know how many stops of DR are available on these hi end projectors and if they differ between models...

Thank you for any thoughts on the matter! I have very little experience with pjs so excuse my ignorance. This community is fantastic. I'm a serious cinephile who has always wanted a pj and I think one may be on my horizon.
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post #2 of 8 Old 07-21-2015, 06:10 PM
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You may want to wait until after CEDIA at this point.
Hard to say what the new models will offer though _ lots of speculation here _ all the more reason to wait.
With UHD Blu-ray just around the corner and the new specs HDMI 2 and HDCP 2.2, I would wait _ if you can, but you've been with out a projector all this time a few more months shouldn't make a difference.

Just till October...
As for your black level concern, the best thing you can do to achieve the best black levels is a proper theatre room _ this applies to any projector.
No ambient light, dark walls, ceiling, floor. Use flat paint...
Is that what matters to you most are black levels ?


Lots to talk about here and there will be lots of discussion and questions.

Last edited by JeffR1; 07-21-2015 at 06:21 PM.
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post #3 of 8 Old 07-21-2015, 06:19 PM
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most people confuse what dynamic range actually measures and especially for TV's changes the topic to light output or contrast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range

I honestly dont think we are anywhere close yet to recording what the human eye is capable of yet in TV's or cameras

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post #4 of 8 Old 07-21-2015, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reminder Jeff, I may very well wait for CEDIA. Only problem is, I am expecting new offerings in this class to be $7k+ plus and I'll end up with say an x700r anyway -- or that may be my impatience talking!

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Originally Posted by torii View Post
most people confuse what dynamic range actually measures and especially for TV's changes the topic to light output or contrast.

I honestly dont think we are anywhere close yet to recording what the human eye is capable of yet in TV's or cameras
I agree the topic of DR is confusing when it comes to displays. I have read reviews which seems to confuse it with hard contrast, but obviously with a steeper S gamma curve the more latitude is actually lost. With that said, I meant to add in my original post, I am not trying to unveil information that the director or DP didn't intend to be seen - I am merely trying to ensure that all the information that was intended to be seen is available.

You're right that the human eye exceeds what cameras can capture. Although the gap is closing all the time. I had the opportunity to work with a monochrome version of Red's Dragon sensor, which has a whopping 17.5 stops of DR, a stop more than the color version of the sensor -- on a color sensor, light passes through tri color filters on each photosite which lessens their sensitivity. In comparison, 35mm film has around 14-15 stops. There was an instance with a window in the shot with a hard glare bouncing off it -- in person this impression was a white glare, but in post we were able to pull detail out of it! Objectively there may have been detail in person, but that was not the subjective memory of us in the editing suite.
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post #5 of 8 Old 07-22-2015, 02:05 AM
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If you setup and calibrate the X500/700 correct it will not crush any blacks and will destroy the Sony VW500/600 with dark material and the 350 even more, the Sony on the other hand will be a bit better with bright material. I have not tested the 10000 yet, but hope to do so after my summer holiday, but what we hear here it is not as good as the JVC in the dark end.
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post #6 of 8 Old 07-22-2015, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexfarm View Post
I'm buying my first projector and had a question re dynamic range. I'm considering the x500r/x700r or the vw350es (600es out of my $). I understand the black level advantages of the JVC, but I'm wondering how this affects shadow details - I've read some reviews that claim vw350es articulates more, presumably because it's an overall brighter and flatter image. I've seen images of the JVC that do look a little crushy in the darks. On the flipside, I've seen some photos of brighter projectors (Art's LS10000 review) where it looked like the highlights were clipping. I know, I know, photographs all! this could be imperfect camera exposure etc.
The very best digital cameras are "only" capable of capturing about 15 stops of dynamic range, that's about a ratio of 33,000:1, modern digital projectors with dynamic irises can go far, far beyond that. The current JVCs are on the order of 350,000:1 with their dynamic iris. That means that you can expose your screenshot to capture the dark, or light, but not both. On top of that, the LCD screen you're likely viewing the screenshot on, is only capable of maybe 1000:1 if you're lucky.

In other words, screenshots are worthless for comparisons in general. In specific cases, with careful setup they are useful for showing specific things, but you have to make sure to read and understand if that was done. But you definitely can't judge JVC vs Sony picture quality in general from random screenshots.

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Am I just misguided here? Is this a gamma issue with the full latitude of the image available after some digging? Do people favor punch over information loss? If I'm calibrating for a high latitude image do I lose the black level advantage of JVC? Or is it generally true that projectors don't quite match the full DR of some deep DR content?
Frankly there's no such thing as "deep DR" content, remember the DCI spec for contrast ("dynamic range") is a minimum of 2000:1. Theater projectors and theaters themselves can't remotely match the kinds of contrast we have at home. So yes, it really does just come down to calibration and how well the projector responds, and whether it has the controls to dial it in.
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post #7 of 8 Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM
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[QUOTE=JeffR1;35934162]You may want to wait until after CEDIA at this point.

As for your black level concern, the best thing you can do to achieve the best black levels is a proper theatre room _ this applies to any projector.
No ambient light, dark walls, ceiling, floor. Use flat paint...
Is that what matters to you most are black levels ?

I well echo the room treatment. As i have been working these room issues, i have seen a direct correlation of bright objects in the room with dull black levels. i have the sony 500es and its plenty bright and good contrast. However my room had some bright white doors, trim, and flat white ceilings. I draped the doors and trim and wow. I am know painting the ceiling and will report back but i expect a similar impact. I have seen this in the calibration tool so its not just my perception
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post #8 of 8 Old Today, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexfarm View Post
I'm buying my first projector and had a question re dynamic range. I'm considering the x500r/x700r or the vw350es (600es out of my $). I understand the black level advantages of the JVC, but I'm wondering how this affects shadow details - I've read some reviews that claim vw350es articulates more, presumably because it's an overall brighter and flatter image. I've seen images of the JVC that do look a little crushy in the darks. On the flipside, I've seen some photos of brighter projectors (Art's LS10000 review) where it looked like the highlights were clipping. I know, I know, photographs all! this could be imperfect camera exposure etc.

Am I just misguided here? Is this a gamma issue with the full latitude of the image available after some digging? Do people favor punch over information loss? If I'm calibrating for a high latitude image do I lose the black level advantage of JVC? Or is it generally true that projectors don't quite match the full DR of some deep DR content? I say this in full knowledge, also, that there are a million factors in play, such as how the footage was exposed, how it was graded, the native latitude of the camera, how it was transferred, etc. etc. I'd be curious to know how many stops of DR are available on these hi end projectors and if they differ between models...

Thank you for any thoughts on the matter! I have very little experience with pjs so excuse my ignorance. This community is fantastic. I'm a serious cinephile who has always wanted a pj and I think one may be on my horizon.
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