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post #1 of 26 Old 08-06-2015, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Used Runco projector versus a new JVC or Sony?

Here's my dilemma... I am building a home theater and would like to get a projector by the end of this year. My budget is maximum $10K. The screen will be 120 inch diagonal 16:9. Viewing distance about 10 feet for first row.

Option 1: I'd love to go with a true 4k projector (but the only game in town is the Sony VW300ES) that fits my budget. This has HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 and should display UHD Blurays (whenever they come out with decent films worth watching - hopefully by december this year). And this should also not have any issues with streaming 4k Netflix with a proper pre/pro processor that support HDCP 2.2.

Option 2: Go for a JVC RS49 for $5K. This has 1300 lumens. And pseudo 4k. It also does not have HDCP 2.2 or HDMI 2.0. So i'm worried about watching UHD blurays and 4K netflix as the picture may not work.

Option 3: Get a (like new) demo Runco VX-22i DLP 1080p project for $8K from a local dealer. I know that this projector does not have HDCP 2.2 or HDMI 2.0. It does have 2850 lumens. This projector retails new for about $25K and supposedly has amazing quality for a 1080p projector.

So the question is... do I not bother jumping on the 4k bandwagon yet and get the best 1080p or pseudo 4k projector I can... or do I wait to see if other projectors come out at CEDIA this year that support HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 and decide then? Do I really need 4k for my screen size and viewing distance or is it not even going to be noticeable?
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post #2 of 26 Old 08-06-2015, 07:36 PM
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You basically wait for Cedia and see what is new. I would guess that most pjs coming out this year will be up to date with HDMI.

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post #3 of 26 Old 08-06-2015, 07:38 PM
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Have a look at these posts, 4361, 4388 4395 and 4492 from Manni _ it's to do with the limited HDMI and colour specs of the Sony native 4K projectors.

Official JVC DILA-X500R / RS49U / RS4910U Owners Thread

Sony should (will) have some new 4K models that will support the full colour gamut when UHD Blu-ray is released.
Keep in mind though that they will probably be expensive _ don't know if they will be more then 10,000.00$.

IMHO, there is no topping a native 4K projector with a good 1080p projector or 4K e-shift _ they will look good, but not as good as native 4K.
It depends what's important to you, with me it's resolution and sharpness, colour gamut is low on my list of priorities, so I went with the 300es, plus I got a good price on it.
The picture is clear, natural and sharp, but not looking electronically enhanced _ it's true when they say "it's like looking through window" even with good 1080p Blu-rays.
The operative word there being "good" (and most are). A bad one is "Fantastic Four" the 300es does nothing to improve that disc, it almost looks 480p in some shots.

PS _ Screen size, my screen is small at 100 inches, but I can see the difference, I am also very fussy and OCD about things though.

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post #4 of 26 Old 08-06-2015, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JeffR1 View Post
Have a look at these posts, 4361, 4388 4395 and 4492 from Manni _ it's to do with the limited HDMI and colour specs of the Sony native 4K projectors.

Official JVC DILA-X500R / RS49U / RS4910U Owners Thread

Sony should (will) have some new 4K models that will support the full colour gamut when UHD Blu-ray is released.
Keep in mind though that they will probably be expensive _ don't know if they will be more then 10,000.00$.

IMHO, there is no topping a native 4K projector with a good 1080p projector or 4K e-shift _ they will look good, but not as good as native 4K.
It depends what's important to you, with me it's resolution and sharpness, colour gamut is low on my list of priorities, so I went with the 300es, plus I got a good price on it.
The picture is clear, natural and sharp, but not looking electronically enhanced _ it's true when they say "it's like looking through window" even with good 1080p Blu-rays.
The operative word there being "good" (and most are). A bad one is "Fantastic Four" the 300es does nothing to improve that disc, it almost looks 480p in some shots.

PS _ Screen size, my screen is small at 100 inches, but I can see the difference, I am also very fussy and OCD about things though.
I agree. I think nothing will be as good as a Native 4k projector. The 300es has hdmi 2.0. but does this support hdcp 2.2? I saw a deal for the 300es for $8K when it was announced, but now it has jumped back up to $10K. Maybe Sony will have another deal this winter....
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post #5 of 26 Old 08-06-2015, 08:20 PM
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Spend $2400 on Seegs DC4 Planar PD8150 and wait for things to work themselves out..
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post #6 of 26 Old 08-06-2015, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ankurjohriddsmd View Post
I agree. I think nothing will be as good as a Native 4k projector. The 300es has hdmi 2.0. but does this support hdcp 2.2? I saw a deal for the 300es for $8K when it was announced, but now it has jumped back up to $10K. Maybe Sony will have another deal this winter....
We're so close to cedia that you need to wait and see what new projectors come out. Buying a JVC RS49 right now that doesn't have HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2 would be crazy unless you don't care about UHD bluray. The new JVC models this fall will have support for UHD bluray even if they are still 1080p + eshift. The Sony 350 will support UHD bluray but the new model this fall will probably support P3. So you need to definitely wait till after cedia so you can then know all your options then decide what will work best for your budget.

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post #7 of 26 Old 08-07-2015, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post
We're so close to cedia that you need to wait and see what new projectors come out. Buying a JVC RS49 right now that doesn't have HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2 would be crazy unless you don't care about UHD bluray. The new JVC models this fall will have support for UHD bluray even if they are still 1080p + eshift. The Sony 350 will support UHD bluray but the new model this fall will probably support P3. So you need to definitely wait till after cedia so you can then know all your options then decide what will work best for your budget.

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Or you buy the JVC and a Key Digital KD-HDFIX22 and then you can play 4K BD's on the 4910.

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post #8 of 26 Old 08-07-2015, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ankurjohriddsmd View Post
I agree. I think nothing will be as good as a Native 4k projector. The 300es has hdmi 2.0. but does this support hdcp 2.2? I saw a deal for the 300es for $8K when it was announced, but now it has jumped back up to $10K. Maybe Sony will have another deal this winter....
It does support HDCP 2.2 on one HDMI port only.
At any rate I would wait until after CEDIA, I know you must have a wad of cash burning a hole in you pocket and you may be worried that the Runco might sell, but there are always sales and bargains to be had, and I'm betting that the Runco will still be there after CEDIA.

Start thinking about what type of screen you need too, a native 4K as well as an e-shift projector need a screen with zero texture so the tiny pixels can be resolved properly _ lots of homework to do.
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post #9 of 26 Old 08-07-2015, 08:37 AM
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The runco is a 2008 model and is a dlp without any dynamic iris. It's black level and contrast will be very poor compared to current models. As your screen is limited to 120'' diagonal you don't need the extra brightness either unless you want to watch sport with lights on. If you're preference is more to movies and series than sports I would stay away from the runco.
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post #10 of 26 Old 08-07-2015, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post
The runco is a 2008 model and is a dlp without any dynamic iris. It's black level and contrast will be very poor compared to current models. As your screen is limited to 120'' diagonal you don't need the extra brightness either unless you want to watch sport with lights on. If you're preference is more to movies and series than sports I would stay away from the runco.
Agreed, the technology in the Runco is 7 years old, things have come a long way since then, even for a high-end 3 chip DLP projector.
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post #11 of 26 Old 08-07-2015, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ankurjohriddsmd View Post
Here's my dilemma... I am building a home theater and would like to get a projector by the end of this year. My budget is maximum $10K. The screen will be 120 inch diagonal 16:9. Viewing distance about 10 feet for first row.

Option 1: I'd love to go with a true 4k projector (but the only game in town is the Sony VW300ES) that fits my budget. This has HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 and should display UHD Blurays (whenever they come out with decent films worth watching - hopefully by december this year). And this should also not have any issues with streaming 4k Netflix with a proper pre/pro processor that support HDCP 2.2.

Option 2: Go for a JVC RS49 for $5K. This has 1300 lumens. And pseudo 4k. It also does not have HDCP 2.2 or HDMI 2.0. So i'm worried about watching UHD blurays and 4K netflix as the picture may not work.

Option 3: Get a (like new) demo Runco VX-22i DLP 1080p project for $8K from a local dealer. I know that this projector does not have HDCP 2.2 or HDMI 2.0. It does have 2850 lumens. This projector retails new for about $25K and supposedly has amazing quality for a 1080p projector.

So the question is... do I not bother jumping on the 4k bandwagon yet and get the best 1080p or pseudo 4k projector I can... or do I wait to see if other projectors come out at CEDIA this year that support HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 and decide then? Do I really need 4k for my screen size and viewing distance or is it not even going to be noticeable?

While I still love my 3 chip DLP projector, since you aren't buying until the end of the year, I agree with those that say wait until after Cedia. And the advise to get a really good artifact free screen is just as important. Also, you should see if there are any AVS forum members near you that would be willing to let you see their theater equipment in action. I have forum members in my theater on occasion to demo stuff.

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post #12 of 26 Old 08-07-2015, 10:47 AM
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While I still love my 3 chip DLP projector, since you aren't buying until the end of the year, I agree with those that say wait until after Cedia. And the advise to get a really good artifact free screen is just as important. Also, you should see if there are any AVS forum members near you that would be willing to let you see their theater equipment in action. I have forum members in my theater on occasion to demo stuff.

I would add the Epson Pro Cinema LS10000 (pseudo 4K using pixel shifting, a laser light engine, HDMI 2.0 w/HDCP 2.2 input, support for DCI P3 color space and should be compatible with Ultra HD Blu-rays, but may require a firmware update) to your list of current models to consider then like others have posted, wait until mid-October to see what JVC, Sony and Epson have to announce at CEDIA Expo.

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post #13 of 26 Old 08-07-2015, 10:53 AM
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If you want a DLP projector the only one I'd recommend is the Planar PD8150 (or the Runco version; Runco LS-5). Out of all the single chip DLP projectors that I've owned it's the only one I've had here that can compete with these newer LCoS projectors. The Runco LS-10i is a little nicer in terms of PQ but also its quite a bit more expensive. Other than these two machines I wouldn't recommend a DLP projector for serious viewing.

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post #14 of 26 Old 08-07-2015, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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If you want a DLP projector the only one I'd recommend is the Planar PD8150 (or the Runco version; Runco LS-5). Out of all the single chip DLP projectors that I've owned it's the only one I've had here that can compete with these newer LCoS projectors. The Runco LS-10i is a little nicer in terms of PQ but also its quite a bit more expensive. Other than these two machines I wouldn't recommend a DLP projector for serious viewing.
Thanks guys!! I think I will wait for the CEDIA conference then.

I need some clarification on the screen. What do you mean by zero texture? I'm thinking of getting a perforated screen with in-wall Triad LCR's behind the screen. The perforated screen will have a texture.......

Also what is this Key Digital KD-HDFIX22? What does it do?
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Thanks guys!! I think I will wait for the CEDIA conference then.

I need some clarification on the screen. What do you mean by zero texture? I'm thinking of getting a perforated screen with in-wall Triad LCR's behind the screen. The perforated screen will have a texture.......

Also what is this Key Digital KD-HDFIX22? What does it do?
Key Digital KD-HDFIX22 _ it should/will allow you to get around HDCP 2.2 with a projector that doesn't support HDCP 2.2.
Google is you best friend here.

Some screens are made of fibre glass with a reflective coating on them. If you look closely at this type of screen you can see and sometimes even feel the texture of the glass cloth.
When shooting an image from a 4K projector onto a screen like this, the texture from the screen will distort the very tiny pixels because it's essentially not perfectly flat.
This can make an image look fussy or slightly out of focus and you don't want this obviously.
IMO, I would think there would be some resolution loss, although be it very small when shooting on a perforated screen.
Some of the pixels will strike areas where the holes are. I don't have any experience with perforated screens and 4K, but I could see this sort of thing happening.

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post #16 of 26 Old 08-08-2015, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ankurjohriddsmd View Post
Thanks guys!! I think I will wait for the CEDIA conference then.

I need some clarification on the screen. What do you mean by zero texture? I'm thinking of getting a perforated screen with in-wall Triad LCR's behind the screen. The perforated screen will have a texture.......
This document should help with the screen info
http://www.accucalhd.com/wp-content/...een_report.pdf

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post #17 of 26 Old 08-10-2015, 09:48 AM
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The runco is a 2008 model and is a dlp without any dynamic iris. It's black level and contrast will be very poor compared to current models.
That's true, but the difference is only apparent with the darkest of dark content. I've got both in my HT right now, a Planar 8150 and a JVC RS4910. The 4910 definitely has a better black level, but the scenes where that's apparent are relatively rare, at least in an overall sense.

And of course the Planar has the benefit of being a "Set it and forget it" machine, it comes calibrated and basically stays that way indefinitely. The JVC in contrast develops "gamma droop" that "needs" to be corrected via calibration after (every?) couple hundred hours to keep it at its best. A Planar would be a great machine to tide you over until 4K shakes out.

That said though, I do agree with everyone else, that if your timeline is "by the end of the year", wait and see what CEDIA brings.

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That's true, but the difference is only apparent with the darkest of dark content. I've got both in my HT right now, a Planar 8150 and a JVC RS4910. The 4910 definitely has a better black level, but the scenes where that's apparent are relatively rare, at least in an overall sense.

And of course the Planar has the benefit of being a "Set it and forget it" machine, it comes calibrated and basically stays that way indefinitely. The JVC in contrast develops "gamma droop" that "needs" to be corrected via calibration after (every?) couple hundred hours to keep it at its best. A Planar would be a great machine to tide you over until 4K shakes out.

That said though, I do agree with everyone else, that if your timeline is "by the end of the year", wait and see what CEDIA brings.
I guess most of the movies I watch are loaded with dark and low APL? Scenes. The JVC excels at this and it spoiled me, wouldn't be satisfied with mediocre contrast anymore.
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The runco is a 2008 model and is a dlp without any dynamic iris. It's black level and contrast will be very poor compared to current models.
That's true, but the difference is only apparent with the darkest of dark content. I've got both in my HT right now, a Planar 8150 and a JVC RS4910. The 4910 definitely has a better black level, but the scenes where that's apparent are relatively rare, at least in an overall sense.

And of course the Planar has the benefit of being a "Set it and forget it" machine, it comes calibrated and basically stays that way indefinitely. The JVC in contrast develops "gamma droop" that "needs" to be corrected via calibration after (every?) couple hundred hours to keep it at its best. A Planar would be a great machine to tide you over until 4K shakes out.

That said though, I do agree with everyone else, that if your timeline is "by the end of the year", wait and see what CEDIA brings.
But how do you rate the contrast of your planar without the dynamic iris? Remember this one doesn't have one. I'm just curious of your opinion. I had a BenQ w9000 before. That one of course only had a dc2 dlp chip. But the contrast was abysmal in any darker scene. A far cry away from anything I would deem acceptable. The planar would be better, but not that much better I reckon?

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Well IMO, $8K on a used Runco is way too much unless the OP's screen is enormous, to the point where the JVC just wouldn't be viable due to brightness. But if ~900 Lumens from a JVC is enough for the OP, the 2800 Lumen Runco is completely unnecessary, an LS5/8150 would be a much better choice.

As for the Planar's DI, while it's great, and almost never noticeable, a lot of the time it's hard to tell whether it's on or off. It's almost just fade to blacks where it makes a difference, and it's definitely noticeable there. I've turned it off (for calibration for example), forgotten to turn it on, and haven't noticed anything really wrong. So I guess I'd rate it as quite good. It's a good deal better than my old BenQ W5000.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I can't tell/see the difference, the 4910 does have an enormous advantage in black level, but I guess for me, once I get into a movie, once I'm not sitting there trying to evaluate differences, something has to be really wrong to bother me, and there's nothing "really wrong" with the Planar's picture/contrast.

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That's true, but the difference is only apparent with the darkest of dark content. I've got both in my HT right now, a Planar 8150 and a JVC RS4910. The 4910 definitely has a better black level, but the scenes where that's apparent are relatively rare, at least in an overall sense.

And of course the Planar has the benefit of being a "Set it and forget it" machine, it comes calibrated and basically stays that way indefinitely. The JVC in contrast develops "gamma droop" that "needs" to be corrected via calibration after (every?) couple hundred hours to keep it at its best. A Planar would be a great machine to tide you over until 4K shakes out.

That said though, I do agree with everyone else, that if your timeline is "by the end of the year", wait and see what CEDIA brings.


I agree and he might consider a pre-order on a new JVC once new projectors are announced at CEDIA.

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[/B]

I agree and he might consider a pre-order on a new JVC once new projectors are announced at CEDIA.
Is Avs still selling projectors? I noticed you and Craig's signatures are stripped down.
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Is Avs still selling projectors? I noticed you and Craig's signatures are stripped down.

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[/B]

I agree and he might consider a pre-order on a new JVC once new projectors are announced at CEDIA.
Great thanks! can't wait to see what CEDIA brings... maybe some new options instead of the same old projector models as last year. at least i hope they get this hdcp 2.2 and hdmi stuff sorted out by then.
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Originally Posted by ankurjohriddsmd View Post
Great thanks! can't wait to see what CEDIA brings... maybe some new options instead of the same old projector models as last year. at least i hope they get this hdcp 2.2 and hdmi stuff sorted out by then.
You and me and a whole lot of folks have the same hope. Then, if they can just not change it for 8 or 10 years, I'll be happy ( fat chance on that ) !

Home theater builder and enthusiast since 2002.
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