Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 759 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22741 of 26973 Old 03-12-2017, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
Can you please show the revised calculation then. It's not adding up to me.

Edit: please include JVC model, light hi/lo, lens throw, filter on/off, screen size.
I measured 50 FC / 538 Lux at screen facing RS500 projector showing 100% white pattern in BT.2020 Lamp High, IRIS 0 full open, recent gamma curve Custom3. Lamp at 1000 hours. My screen is a true 1.1 gain Carada BW 136" diag 2.35:1 which is 53" x 125". That's 6,625 sq.in. = 46 sq.ft. of actual scoped screen area. My projector lens is 17' from the center of the screen.

Based on reading that there's 12.57 lumens per FC, that's 658.5 lumen, but really have no idea since I thought lumen = FC * sq.ft of screen. Which is why I stated 2300 earlier using 46 sq.ft. And with a 1.1 gain, my ftL was 2530. And I KNOW that's too much for an 1800 max lumens projector. That's the extent I'm willing to go at this point on this forum for my age and pay-grade. I'm at loss to determine nits or anything else at this point. Or advise further concerning someone else's setup, etc. My frackin' head hurts and I'd prefer to be watching a movie instead.

My apologies for any erroneous information previously posted and my thanks to anyone willing to take the above numbers, correct as necessary, and post whatever damn nits I'm currently getting.
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post #22742 of 26973 Old 03-12-2017, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I measured 50 FC / 538 Lux at screen facing RS500 projector showing 100% white pattern in BT.2020 Lamp High, IRIS 0 full open, recent gamma curve Custom3. Lamp at 1000 hours. My screen is a true 1.1 gain Carada BW 136" diag 2.35:1 which is 53" x 125". That's 6,625 sq.in. = 46 sq.ft. of actual scoped screen area. My projector lens is 17' from the center of the screen.
...
Just to be clear, I'm trying to help, not show you've made a mistake.

So first, when you measured 538 lux, did you have the projector illuminating the full 125" wide screen, or were you using the zoom to only illuminate the 16:9 position of 94"x53"? That is a factor of 1.75. You say BT2020, I assume that means with the filter, which usually looses 15%.

If you were illuminating the full 125" screen, then 538 Lux is just not possible. 538 Lux is 50 Ft candles (lumens/sq ft.). 50 lumens/sq ft * 61 sq ft = 3050 lumens. The RS500 is advertised at 1700 Lumens (without the filter, widest throw position). At this point, I would suspect the meter.

Now if you had the image zoomed down to 94"x53", like you would for a 16:9 movie, then you would only have 34.68 sq ft. That would be 50 lumens/sq ft. * 34.7 = 1733 lumens. Still high if the filter was in place, but a lot closer. I don't trust light meters to better that 15-30%, so that is a possibility.

You said meter error was ruled out as a possibility. How did you determine this? I suggested you take a reading of noon day sun on a clear day. That is 80k-120k Lux. Of course, if you live where I do, that might be awhile.
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post #22743 of 26973 Old 03-12-2017, 10:56 PM
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That has to be the reason. I took it using a 100% white window pattern which fills even less of my screen. I need to find a full field pattern on the RM clips and zoom to fill the entire screen. I'll post both numbers.

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post #22744 of 26973 Old 03-12-2017, 11:12 PM
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OK, I couldn't find a full field clip anywhere on RM's patterns, just mostly 10% widowed, with one 40% white field pattern. Anyone that can point me to one that's a full field 100% white, that would be helpful. I might have missed it.

I ended up switching to BT.709 no filter, lamp high, IRIS 0, gamma 2.3 and measuring a full white field at 52 FC / 556 Lux at 1.78:1 and zoomed out to 2.35:1 at 30.3 FC / 324 Lux. I measured 33.5 / 368 Lux at 1.78:1 in low lamp while I was at it.

Feel free to take those measurements and calculate nits at BT.709. If they're still to high, then it's the meter. If it's wrong, at least I can say that it's consistent.

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post #22745 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Well, this is a looooonngg time coming. But here it is for anyone that wants to try it... here is my tuned custom curve specifically designed for large screens with nits around 50. I've extensively tested it with Pan. I need to do more testing and possibly tweaking for other movies. But so far I am very pleased with this.

See the screens for large environments. I tried to export this to jgd file so others can import it, but I couldn't figure out how to export jgd files with the JVC software - only option there was import.

Blacks are intentionally crushed thru 77 in this version. I still have testing to do to confirm it plays nice with 0 nit black masters, but from other people's testing using level 77 I think it will.

For those using the older non-wip version (time to get with the program...) the params would be something like: 500-54-275-4000-0.5-0-1, I THINK. Then again with a multiplier of about 10x I am not sure how this looks any good on my system (I would think it would be way too dark), but it does.

This may look good on any systems around 100 nits or below. If you try it please let me know how it goes. I included the conf file. Just rename the custom2-77.txt file to custom2-77.conf, then from Arve's tool enter "lf custom2-77", then ga if not in the gamma adjustment menu, set your custom gamma selection in the JVC menu and then Pw to write it.
Hi Ric,

Glad you found your baby after all that work

Three things:

1) Pan doesn't reach above 2750nits as I reported earlier in the scene you use, which isn't a good scene to test for clipping at 4000nits. It might reach a higher value in another scene, but there is no metadata available for that title for MaxFALL and MaxCLL so it's more likely that it simply doesn't go much above 2500nits, like the Shallows. To test actual clipping in content, you need to display a scene that actually goes up to 4000nits, such as one of the scenes mentioned in Mad Max or Batman vs Superman. Check Javs pictures to see which ones. These are 4000nits titles confirmed to go up to 4000nits, which is a small minority of them. Not sure why you hang on to Pan, although in your situation if you resolve up to 2750nits and have a decent curve, it's not too bad a result...

2) Your multiplier is higher than 10, because you multiply your actual PeakY by 10 for max brightness AND lower reference white from 100 to 50nits. This explains why your picture is still bright. Usually, we do one or the other (keep ref white at 100nits and raise max brightness, or use actual peakY for max brightness and lower ref. white). A multiplier of 10 would need to have ref white at 100nits and max brightness at 500nits for your actual peakY of 50nits.

3) To export a low-res version of your curve (11 control points only), you have to go in the gamma menu, select the custom gamma curve you want to export, and click save. You don't have this option in the import/export section, which only allows to import a gamma file, such as the one you will create.

Glad that Arve has added neg value for bb and that it allows you to resolve down to 81.
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post #22746 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 05:18 AM
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Went over to Kevin's house on Saturday and brought my RS-500 along. Kevin loaded up Manni's 1000-4000 V1 and 1100-4000 V2 on my machine. Kevin already was watching HDR calibrated by Chad B. but, I think with Manni's Gamma curves it's even better. Shadow detail was excellent! We didn't hook up his Linker that he just received but, the picture was still very excellent. I think I'm starting to like HDR on the JVC. Thanks Kevin & thank you Manni for the Gamma curves!
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post #22747 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 05:36 AM
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SDR Gamma

I have several questions about SDR (709) caliberation. I have run JVC autocal once already.

I am using Samsung 8500 to play rental discs and HTPC (Sandybridge cpu/gpu, HDMI 1.4) to play my ripped discs. HTPC is connected to RS500 through Denon x2000 with video processing off. Samsung is connected directly to JVC. I have separate user modes for HTPC, Samsung and HDR (samsung again).The user modes I use have Manni's 709NF profile and Normal gamma. I then use JVC BR/CR to adjust black and white clipping using AVSForum disc.

I am noticing that picture is too dark (with possible loss of shadow details) with regular blurays (both HTPC and Samsung). Am I doing something wrong? One can set gamma at 2.3 or 2.2 for brighter picture, but I don't have that option in Normal gamma. Should I choose custom gamma? I don't have any space left for any HDR Custom gamma as those are filled by several different custom HDR curves for testing HDR).

Do BR/CR of 0 (in projector and player) and default (in HTPC) apply to SDR gamma selection as well? Can one use Arve's tool for SDR 1886 gamma as well?
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post #22748 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Well, this is a looooonngg time coming. But here it is for anyone that wants to try it... here is my tuned custom curve specifically designed for large screens with nits around 50. I've extensively tested it with Pan. I need to do more testing and possibly tweaking for other movies. But so far I am very pleased with this.

See the screens for large environments. I tried to export this to jgd file so others can import it, but I couldn't figure out how to export jgd files with the JVC software - only option there was import.

Blacks are intentionally crushed thru 77 in this version. I still have testing to do to confirm it plays nice with 0 nit black masters, but from other people's testing using level 77 I think it will.

For those using the older non-wip version (time to get with the program...) the params would be something like: 500-54-275-4000-0.5-0-1, I THINK. Then again with a multiplier of about 10x I am not sure how this looks any good on my system (I would think it would be way too dark), but it does.

This may look good on any systems around 100 nits or below. If you try it please let me know how it goes. I included the conf file. Just rename the custom2-77.txt file to custom2-77.conf, then from Arve's tool enter "lf custom2-77", then ga if not in the gamma adjustment menu, set your custom gamma selection in the JVC menu and then Pw to write it.
Ufff Why are you using a multiplier so big (18.5)? With this multiplier the image should be too dark

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post #22749 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Pretty sure I responded with a post for you to check this in the JVC and Arve's settings. You're not an idiot either since it was reported that running "1 Setup HDR" will change it to enhanced without letting you know. That's why I said to check the JVC (I don't use Auto, but select Standard) and the script's il setting.

I ended up with bb = 0.005 with a 650 curve, so you're numbers aren't off from what I get on similar large screen.
Thanks for doing it. I think I saw it initially and shrugged it off because I had just been in the menu confirming "Standard" setting while making changes to my HTPC. I think its my ADD kicking in again... At times I have to read a passage from the last paragraph up to the top--my brain is crazy. Thank you for chiming in when you did and hopefully I don't overlook useful information in the future.

Cheers!
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post #22750 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
OK, I couldn't find a full field clip anywhere on RM's patterns, just mostly 10% widowed, with one 40% white field pattern. Anyone that can point me to one that's a full field 100% white, that would be helpful. I might have missed it.

I ended up switching to BT.709 no filter, lamp high, IRIS 0, gamma 2.3 and measuring a full white field at 52 FC / 556 Lux at 1.78:1 and zoomed out to 2.35:1 at 30.3 FC / 324 Lux. I measured 33.5 / 368 Lux at 1.78:1 in low lamp while I was at it.

Feel free to take those measurements and calculate nits at BT.709. If they're still to high, then it's the meter. If it's wrong, at least I can say that it's consistent.
Those measurements make sense now.

You don't need full size patterns, just be zoomed out to the normal 2.35:1 setting vs the 16:9 position.

So without the filter, at the 2.35:1 zoomed for the 125" wide screen, Iris 0, you got 30.2 FC. 30.2 x 61 sq ft is 1842 Lumens. While that is a bit high, considering you are not at the widest zoom position, it is close enough to be possible. (Bulb variation, accuracy tolerance of the meter).

As for NITs, (assuming a screen gain of 1.1), then 30.2 * 1.1 *3.4 = 113 NITs. The BT2020 filter is likely a loss of 15%, so you would be close to 100 NIT with the filter.

That has got to look great on that size screen.
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post #22751 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 08:26 AM
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On your JVC settings, do all of you select "Standard" as Input Signal, rather than Auto?

Pro's and Con's?

Thanks.

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post #22752 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
On your JVC settings, do all of you select "Standard" as Input Signal, rather than Auto?

Pro's and Con's?

Thanks.
That is exactly what was communicated to me. I think you lose some brightness using Enhanced over Standard -- The others can chime in and give you more scientific reasons for doing so.

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post #22753 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
That is exactly what was communicated to me. I think you lose some brightness using Enhanced over Standard -- The others can chime in and give you more scientific reasons for doing so.
Thanks. I do understand why one wants to use Standard; I guess I would have thought that Auto would select the proper choice, as it does for so many other options.

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post #22754 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 08:51 AM
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Thanks. I do understand why one wants to use Standard; I guess I would have thought that Auto would select the proper choice, as it does for so many other options.
I preferred standard too. Enhanced seemed to raise my black levels.
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post #22755 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 09:08 AM
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I preferred standard too. Enhanced seemed to raise my black levels.
Thanks. And yes, from what I've learned here, Standard is the Input we want.

My question is whether or not Auto does or doesn't select for Standard under most circumstances, and why.

Auto for virtually all other options seems to do what we want for the 'usual' situations, so I have left it Auto for Signal Input.

So is everybody manually selecting Standard, or leaving it in Auto?

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post #22756 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 09:16 AM
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I preferred standard too. Enhanced seemed to raise my black levels.
You mean you had to do a new calibration to achieve the right black (brightness) level or it literally changed the black floor of the projector for you?

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post #22757 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Thanks. And yes, from what I've learned here, Standard is the Input we want.

My question is whether or not Auto does or doesn't select for Standard under most circumstances, and why.

Auto for virtually all other options seems to do what we want for the 'usual' situations, so I have left it Auto for Signal Input.

So is everybody manually selecting Standard, or leaving it in Auto?
I used to set it to Auto, but it's one less thing to worry about if I set it to Standard and leave it there. Well, unless you use the WIP utility and choose 'setup HDR' which automagically puts the JVC in 'enhanced' mode).

For me, I had to adjust the settings on my HTPC to play nicely with Standard mode .. but that was a cinch too.
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post #22758 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HTMatrix View Post
The more I read, the more confused I am getting. It's hard to know what all this stuff is, especially just jumping into like I am with my first projector.
Ignoring the details, here is the summmary.

Assuming you want the most flexibility and both easy and complex options available to you down the road, the Oppo is the best bet, though it's not perfect yet so we have to assume (risky?) that firmware updates solve the kinks. The Panasonic is almost as good but takes additional gear for some key features.

Samsung and Philips each have significant flaws. Sony has not been rigorously tested so key things are unknown (examples: sdr2020 accuracy/ability; capability to play RM test patterns).

---

Frankly if I was you and this was my first projector, I would:

1. Ignore hdr for now
2. Learn how to autocal
3. Concentrate on getting blu ray perfect
4. Enjoy for a few months and not think about the rest

So your existing bluray player is fine. No need to get something new.
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post #22759 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 09:35 AM
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You mean you had to do a new calibration to achieve the right black (brightness) level or it literally changed the black floor of the projector for you?
It appeared to raise the black floor - at least on my RS600 in my set up.

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post #22760 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi Ric,

Glad you found your baby after all that work

Three things:

1) Pan doesn't reach above 2750nits as I reported earlier in the scene you use, which isn't a good scene to test for clipping at 4000nits. It might reach a higher value in another scene, but there is no metadata available for that title for MaxFALL and MaxCLL so it's more likely that it simply doesn't go much above 2500nits, like the Shallows. To test actual clipping in content, you need to display a scene that actually goes up to 4000nits, such as one of the scenes mentioned in Mad Max or Batman vs Superman. Check Javs pictures to see which ones. These are 4000nits titles confirmed to go up to 4000nits, which is a small minority of them. Not sure why you hang on to Pan, although in your situation if you resolve up to 2750nits and have a decent curve, it's not too bad a result...
Yes I recall that about Pan maxing out at 2750 nits. My choice to use this as my testing scene is on purpose. My understanding is that there is very little content (relatively speaking) above this level, and as you know I am scraping for every bit of brightness I can get. Therefore that is part of my intentional tradeoff/compromise here... I am crushing content beyond this point for those rare occasions where there is content, while getting much needed extra brightness out of it. I sort of equate it to how people used to use Enhanced HDMI and resolve up to 255, for like those couple of titles that had content up that high. Now that is an exaggeration because I realize in the world of HDR, content that goes up to 4000 nits is much more prevleant than in that example. But that gives you my analogy there - I'm not going to make my picture extra dim just to resolve those highlights up to 4000. I just don't have the headroom for it. Certainly for those with tons of brightness to spare a scene that goes up to 4000 nits would be better.

Quote:
2) Your multiplier is higher than 10, because you multiply your actual PeakY by 10 for max brightness AND lower reference white from 100 to 50nits. This explains why your picture is still bright. Usually, we do one or the other (keep ref white at 100nits and raise max brightness, or use actual peakY for max brightness and lower ref. white). A multiplier of 10 would need to have ref white at 100nits and max brightness at 500nits for your actual peakY of 50nits.
Yes I know what you mean, and I must be missing something about what my true multiplier is because much beyond 5:1 would generally be too dark. I'll explain how I set this - or rather how Arve's tool automatically set this, in my next post, where I explain my recommended method for setting up a curve.

Quote:
3) To export a low-res version of your curve (11 control points only), you have to go in the gamma menu, select the custom gamma curve you want to export, and click save. You don't have this option in the import/export section, which only allows to import a gamma file, such as the one you will create.

Glad that Arve has added neg value for bb and that it allows you to resolve down to 81.
Great. I'll export a version of the curve in case it helps someone else with a large screen. As for crushing at 77 on purpose - I did some testing last night with Deadpool which I believe uses 0 nit black. I could not find any scenes where the legal curve (64 black) showed any more detail at all compared to my illegal curve (77 black) so I think we can put that to rest now that I am using a correct illegal curve.
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post #22761 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Ok, with great risk of personal injury from my warden (she really thinks I have lost my mind spending so much time in the basement), I spent the last 6 hours creating and testing a bunch of different curves with Arve's tool (WIP version).

like StevenJ and Javs, I have settled on a 650 bm curve which I think is the sweet spot for screens around 120+" diagonal. It seems to produce the best balance of color saturation, highlights and detail.

MY NEW UNIVERSAL CURVE:

Max brightness: 650 nits
Reference white: 100 nits
Black brightness: 0.02
Soft clip start: auto
Hard clip: 4000 nits
SEC: 0.75
Soft curve type: 0
Soft curve gamma: 1

With these Parameters I am resolving down to 0.005 nits/level 81.

I also modified the same curve, using 0.03 bb, where I am resolving down to 68 for comparison.

After trying a variety of 1000 and 4000 Nit movies, and specifically looking for any evidence of black crush, I was unable to find any example of black crush whatsoever. Actually, that's not completely accurate; I did detect black crush throughout the movie Morgan, but that was the case with all the curves I loaded. This leads me to believe that the crush must be in the source.

After using Manni's pre-made curves for a while, I am glad I finally got off my a*& and started experimenting with these high res versions. My 650 curve is so amazing and truly universal in every sense, that I think I can finally relax and enjoy the show without wondering if it could/should be improved further.

Only thing left is to order a linker. My warden is already POed at me for spending so much time in the theater, I guess spending $300 (Canadian) isn't really going to make things that much worse.
Can you please post more about your config with this curve as follows:

Screen size diagonal:
Screen aspect ratio:
Screen gain:
JVC Br/Cr:
High/low lamp?
Manual Iris setting?
Oppo or Pana?
Any Br/Cr settings on player?
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post #22762 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by HTMatrix View Post
The more I read, the more confused I am getting. It's hard to know what all this stuff is, especially just jumping into like I am with my first projector.
Hi,

Below is the list of possible signal types that you can get from UHD premium sources on JVC PJ mentioned in this thread title.
It's listed from best to worst according to users reports here. So basically you just have to make your choice. (apparently you can forget about the last two)

1. BT2020/HDR with custom gamma curve and DI (Linker needed for DI and convenience only) > works with any HDR sources and any HDR content
2. BT2020/SDR (Integral or Linker needed for most UHD BR players except OPPO) > Not all sources and not all content support/offer it
3. Default JVC HDR mode with Gamma D and no DI
4. Rec 709

IMPORTANT: Due to recent discoveries, we are working on a new way to handle Dolby Vision, in the meantime please use AUTOMIX/SINK mode for DV support.
Do not use DV forced flags on Integral, it cannot work with all DV equipment, simply use automix with max video algo and you will be fine until we push new updates out.
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post #22763 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 10:34 AM
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Speed guide to creating a custom curve

OK so I am about to distill a ton of research and experimentation into a very simple process you can follow to create your own custom curve. I am not going to go into the details of where to get the tools and setting them up - that's been covered elsewhere. Also this is not meant to be "all encompassing" so you may need to do more research to understand some of what I'm talking about here. Rather, the goal is to give you the quick steps to get your own curve up and running. So here ya go:

[Note that much of this is from memory - I need to revisit this and double check a few things, so for now consider this a draft]

1. Start with the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch.

2. Select a custom gamma slot, such as Custom 1, in the JVC. Change the correction value to "Import"

3. Set your contrast and brightness to 0 in the JVC and in your sources such as Panasonic UB900. This assumes Standard HDMI type.

4. Run Arve's tool menu.py.

5. Select lp, then option 2. This loads a default HDR curve into the tool.

6. Make sure your source is outputting HDR and not SDR BT2020.

7. Bring up a HDR image you want to test with. I use the "sky scene" in Pan at 18:55. However this scene only resolves up to 2750 nits. Although this is a good choice for those with large screens and low peak white nits (below 100, I only have about 45), if you have above 100 nits you'll be better off using a scene that resolves up to 4000 nits. Mad Max is often mentioned for this. You can find examples of scenes in a picture comparison thread several pages back. Note that I recommend using an actual scene (paused) from a HDR movie for this and not a white clipping pattern. The reason is because the clipping pattern can still show bars but crush in between. The best way to determine this is therefore with an actual scene. Certainly you can try it with a clipping pattern if you'd like to compare the results to doing the same approach with a scene from a movie, but if you only want to do it once, use a movie scene not a pattern for this.

8. Enter ga in the tool (gamma adjust). This will bring up a new menu.

9. Use option 3 "tune with contrast". This will load the tool's default HDR curve into the JVC and prepare itself for your contrast control adjustment (see next step).

10. Your image will be highly crushed in this initial state. See attached pan-sky-initial image. Lower contrast to the point where the crush is gone. See pan-sky-contrast-fully-tuned image - this is how mine looks once fully adjusted for no crush. Just keep dropping it until you feel that no image detail is being lost due to "bloom". When you find that point, raise contrast again a click or two and confirm that the blooming starts, lower it again - the point is toe just confirm that you have the right point. In my setup I think I had to drop contrast to around -18 or -20.

11. When you are done adjusting contrast, press Enter on Arve's tool (which is waiting for you to do so to tell it you're done adjusting contrast). This is where the magic happens... It will readjust your curve based on the brightness you need, send the new curve to the pj, and then automatically reset the JVC brightness back to 0 for you.

12. It gives you a chance to repeat this process, which may be necessary to fine tune a click or two. Change contrast a few clicks in either direction. Most likely you will be good now at 0 if you got it right in the first place (step 10). If you adjust contrast, go to step 11 and repeat. If you leave contrast at 0, when you hit return in the tool it'll exit this adjustment phase.

Tip: From early experimentation it seems that you can get extra brightness without as much crushing on 1000 nit master titles. Therefore if you have low nits like me, it may be worthwhile to have two "go to" curves - one for 1000 nit titles and one for 4000 nit titles. So repeat this whole process (all steps here) a 2nd time, but using a 1000 nit title like Lucy. The result will be a brighter curve that may work well on 1000 nit titles.

As a general guide, expect to lower contrast to about -17 to -23 for 4000 nit titles (crushing beyond 2750) and to about -5 to -7 for 1000 nit titles. Let your eyes guide you on the scenes, but that should give you a rough idea if you are in the right ballpark.

Tip #2 : When using the contrast control to set the contrast so there is no clipping, you will likely create a picture that looks nice and properly saturated, but is too dim, particularly if you have less than 100 nits to start with. Therefore I recommend doing one curve with contrast set ideally, again, likely you will find that be around -23 to -17. After completing all the steps listed in this guide, repeat it from scratch again, but this time purposely crush some of the scene, perhaps with a contrast setting around -12 to -15. Finish all the steps here again, but save this into another preset. Then repeat everything once again, but with targeting a 1000 nit master and clipping around 1000, which will be around -5 to -7 as mentioned above. Save that into the 3rd slot. Then as you watch movies play around and see which one you will like best. Hint/spoiler alert: You will like the brightest one best. However you will crush some bright scenes as a result. So you'll have to decide what is an acceptable level of tradeoff. By having 3 different curves you can try any of them A/B to pick your favorite. You can even use the 1000 nit target curve for 4000 nit masters (but will crush them quite a bit) and still find it VERY pleasing, if you don't mind the crush.

13. At this point your curve is mainly complete. However this is where manually tweaking can be done. You can try changing the soft clip value (sc) lower or higher, and or changing the se value to control how steep the clip is. I lowered my sc from the auto setting and lower my se from 0.75 to 0.5. This further helped to tame some minor blooming I had in the highlights otherwise. For instance, after my contrast was tuned I still had some pretty heavy blooming in highlights. See pan-hand-highlight-high image. After lowering my sc and se I was able to tame it, without sacrificing much if any overall image brightness. See pan-hand-highlight-medium for the end result. Look at Pan's hand (wrist really) in both of those pics. Notice the bloom is tamed (somewhat) in the medium one. Look at the clouds above his hand in both pics - you can see how the excess bloom is tamed there as well.

Note: You will have to walk a fine line between how much crush you are willing to take for a brighter picture, or put another way, how dim of a picture you are willing to accept to minimize crush. The brighter the picture, not only is there more crush, but the picture begins to desaturate. In these two sky image examples those are at both ends - too high and too low. This picture is rather dim in the low one. So in reality I wind up cheating-up some by introducing some desaturation and some crush, but no where close to what the initial sky looks like. I have a few versions of this saved into different presets so I can change the curve to taste based on the movie.

14. Now it's time to fine tune the Brightness, tho we will not do that with any controls - just with Arve's tool. Leave brightness at 0 in JVC and elsewhere. Don't touch those controls... Bring up Ray's black clipping pattern, the 2nd one with the large bars. Pause it with the bars showing so the clip doesn't end on you while you are working on it, but hit play to help you see what's flashing or not as you make adjustments, then rewind to the beginning of the clip so it doesn't end on you as you work with hit. The idea here is to purposely crush black so that 0.005 nits is the black floor instead of 0. This should provide a lower black floor for content mastered at 0.005 black (about 70% of the content) while also not having any detrimental impact to content mastered at 0 nit black. To do this we target bars 77 and below to not be flashing, and 81 and above to be flashing.

15. Enter the command "bbi 0.005" to set this as your black floor for content. Issue Pw command to write this to the JVC. You will likely find that bar 81 and possibly higher bars are not visible/flashing. In that case use the "bbo" command to add just a touch of brightness, then send to the JVC with Pw command. Try something very small at first, like 0.002. You want to get to the point where you can't see bar 77 but can see bar 81. Keep trying bbo values and Pw until bar 81 shows but bar 77 does not.

16. At this point you are done. Use the command "s filename" to save your curve to your PC. Later you can use "lf filename" to reload your curve back into the tool and write it back to the pj, in case you want to work on it some more (or in case you want to overwrite it temporarily in the pj but then come back to it later).

17. Experiment. Try the same process over, but perhaps crushing your contrast-setting scene a bit more to give you more brightness. And or play with sc or se. Write curves into other custom gamma slots. Then bring up scenes and switch between them in the JVC. You may find that some curves work better for dark vs brighter movies.

Hope this helps!

Edit 3/14/17: Added screenshots and further clarification to steps 9-13.

Edit 3/15/17: Added more details on using bbi and bbo to set the proper black level; added more details on contrast fine tuning and idea of designing curves for 1000 vs 4000 nit titles.

Edit: 3/16/17: Added clarification to say to use a movie scene for the contrast tuning, not a white clipping pattern.

Edit: 3/17/17: Added tip #2 above, for ideas on how to generate curves with different brightness levels to pick from.
Attached Thumbnails
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Last edited by lovingdvd; 03-17-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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post #22764 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD_666 View Post
Ufff Why are you using a multiplier so big (18.5)? With this multiplier the image should be too dark
Not sure. This is what the tool generated for me. See my post above with all the details of how I got from there to here. Image is certainly not to dark especially compared to other curves posted here (designed for smaller screens) that I've tried. I'll ask Arve to clarify how the multiplier could appear so high yet results be so good (and bright).
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post #22765 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
OK so I am about to distill a ton of research and experimentation into a very simple process you can follow to create your own custom curve. I am not going to go into the details of where to get the tools and setting them up - that's been covered elsewhere. Also this is not meant to be "all encompassing" so you may need to do more research to understand some of what I'm talking about here. Rather, the goal is to give you the quick steps to get your own curve up and running. So here ya go:

[Note that much of this is from memory - I need to revisit this and double check a few things, so for now consider this a draft]

1. Start with the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch.

2. Select a custom gamma slot, such as Custom 1, in the JVC. Change the correction value to "Import"

3. Set your contrast and brightness to 0 in the JVC and in your sources such as Panasonic UB900. This assumes Standard HDMI type.

4. Run Arve's tool menu.py.

5. Select lp, then option 2. This loads a default HDR curve into the tool.

6. Make sure your source is outputting HDR and not SDR BT2020.

7. Bring up a HDR image you want to test with. I use the "sky scene" in Pan at 18:55. However this scene only resolves up to 2750 nits. Although this is a good choice for those with large screens and low peak white nits (below 100, I only have about 45), if you have above 100 nits you'll be better off using a scene that resolves up to 4000 nits. Mad Max is often mentioned for this. You can find examples of scenes in a picture comparison thread several pages back.

8. Enter ga in the tool (gamma adjust). This will bring up a new menu.

9. Use option 3 "tune with contrast". This will load the tool's default HDR curve into the JVC and prepare itself for your contrast control adjustment (see next step).

10. Your image will be highly crushed. You'll note that the Contrast control on the JVC is nicely presented. Lower contrast to the point where the crush is gone. Just keep dropping it until you feel that no image detail is being lost due to "bloom". When you find that point, raise contrast again a click or two and confirm that the blooming starts, lower it again - the point is toe just confirm that you have the right point. In my setup I think I had to drop contrast to around -18 or -20.

11. When you are done adjusting contrast, press Enter on Arve's tool (which is waiting for you to do so to tell it you're done adjusting contrast). This is where the magic happens... It will readjust your curve based on the brightness you need, send the new curve to the pj, and then automatically reset the JVC brightness back to 0 for you.

12. It gives you a chance to repeat this process, which may be necessary to fine tune a click or two. Change contrast a few clicks in either direction. Most likely you will be good now at 0 if you got it right in the first place (step 10). If you adjust contrast, go to step 11 and repeat. If you leave contrast at 0, when you hit return in the tool it'll exit this adjustment phase.

13. At this point your curve is mainly complete. However this is where manually tweaking can be done. You can try changing the soft clip value (sc) lower or higher, and or changing the se value to control how steep the clip is. I lowered my sc from the auto setting and lower my se from 0.75 to 0.5. This further helped to tame some minor blooming I had in the highlights otherwise.

14. Now it's time to fine tune the Brightness, tho we will not do that with any controls - just with Arve's tool. Leave brightness at 0 in JVC and elsewhere. Don't touch those controls... Bring up Ray's black clipping pattern, the 2nd one with the large bars. Pause it with the bars showing so the clip doesn't end on you while you are working on it, but hit play to help you see what's flashing or not as you make adjustments, then rewind to the beginning of the clip so it doesn't end on you as you work with hit.

15. If you see bars below 81 light up, use the bbi command to have the tool lower the black floor a touch, then use Pw to write it to the JVC. You want to get to the point where you can't see bar 77 but can see bar 81. For instance I could see all bars above 68 flashing. I used bbi 0.002 and then it crushed through bar 77 with only 81 and above showing, which is what we want. If you have the opposite issue - whereby bar 81 (and possibly bars above it) are not flashing, then you need to use bbo command to add a touch of brightness. Try bbo 0.005 and then Pw and keep trying numbers until bar 81 shows but bar 77 does not.

16. At this point you are done. Use the command "s filename" to save your curve to your PC. Later you can use "lf filename" to reload your curve back into the tool and write it back to the pj, in case you want to work on it some more (or in case you want to overwrite it temporarily in the pj but then come back to it later).

17. Experiment. Try the same process over, but perhaps crushing your contrast-setting scene a bit more to give you more brightness. And or play with sc or se. Write curves into other custom gamma slots. Then bring up scenes and switch between them in the JVC. You may find that some curves work better for dark vs brighter movies.

Hope this helps!

Thanks, I was totally unaware of steps 9,10,11 and didn't use them...My pic looks great...Does this mean my contrast is whacked and I don't know it?

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post #22766 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
Hi,

Below is the list of possible signal types that you can get from UHD premium sources on JVC PJ mentioned in this thread title.
It's listed from best to worst according to users reports here.
....
First, thank you immensely for the linker with the Function that lets us get back DI with HDR for the JVC.

Second, I'm not sure the linker has the horse power to do what I'm about to propose, but what a great feature I'm about to suggest.

The linker ( or some future product) could have a mode where it intercepted the video, and output an overlay that was a video scope monitor, showing the video level from 0 to 10k NITs on a log scale.

I know that may be too hard to do, but it would be extremely useful for the tinkering crowd we have here. Just a thought. Fantastic product.
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post #22767 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
First, thank you immensely for the linker with the Function that lets us get back DI with HDR for the JVC.

Second, I'm not sure the linker has the horse power to do what I'm about to propose, but what a great feature I'm about to suggest.

The linker ( or some future product) could have a mode where it intercepted the video, and output an overlay that was a video scope monitor, showing the video level from 0 to 10k NITs on a log scale.

I know that may be too hard to do, but it would be extremely useful for the tinkering crowd we have here. Just a thought. Fantastic product.
I've requested a similar feature. HDFury said their next gen product will have OSD capabilities and they are looking at things such as this. I'm sure he will elaborate more here.
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post #22768 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
All UHD players can output BT.2020 when playing a UHD disc in HDR.

It is only when the player sees the display as not supporting HDR will the player by default output REC709 SDR.

The HDFury Integral and Linker can coax the players I mentioned previously to convert HDR to BT.2020 SDR instead of REC709 SDR. It does this by presenting an EDID to the player that reports that HDR is not supported but BT.2020 is.
So it hasn't been confirmed yet.
Is there any practical way this could be tested out, such as playing a UHD source, set for HDR/BT2020 mode, then pausing a closed-up image for skin tone? While on paused I can switch to SDR mode. If there's any noticeable change in the color palette, being less, would that mean it got converted to R709? However if, that color palette didn't alter nor change a bit then can I assume that it retained the BT2020 profile...what do you think?


Btw, I earlier posted that when changing gamma presets (while in HDR) it would convert to SDR mode. Well that assumption is totally incorrect. The only way I can convert to SDR mode from this player is by playing a UHD disc then switching the JVC inputs from EDID A to B, while the player is set to force 4K. This will show on the player's display - 4k and HDR>SDR. It also triggers an additional slider conversion on the player's video settings.
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post #22769 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 12:39 PM
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Thanks, I was totally unaware of steps 9,10,11 and didn't use them...My pic looks great...Does this mean my contrast is whacked and I don't know it?
Your existing curve may be perfectly fine as it is, even though you skipped those steps. You just got there the harder way (I think). As I understand it, by following those steps 9-11 with "fine tune using contrast" - you get the brightest curve you can get without clipping (unless you purposely clip like I do) WITHOUT having to do guess work on the multiplier and bm and bw etc. So IOW 9-11 gives you the optimal starting curve, so I think you can skip 9-11 entirely (I'm quite sure Manni does not do this step) and use the other settings by eye and still wind up in the same place. However I feel it is FAR more intuitive to use 9-11 at least to start. Then from there you can tweak any of the numbers including bm and bw or the new brightness scale. But once you tweak those numbers, do not go back and do 9-11 again as that would just undo your tweaks.

Arve's advice:
Quote:
The "Load into projector and tune with contrast control" entry is for setting the overall brightness of the picture, not for tuning the highlights, so yes it undoes any change to bm/bw. Run it first, then change the other parameters if you are not happy with the highlights.
So to recap - start with "tune contrast control" feature to get your optimal baseline curve for your given setup (largely a factor of nits available). Then use the other params to tweak the highlights to taste.
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post #22770 of 26973 Old 03-13-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Thanks, I was totally unaware of steps 9,10,11 and didn't use them...My pic looks great...Does this mean my contrast is whacked and I don't know it?
Same here !

Thats new to me too !

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