Sony SXRD Degradation Thread - Effects All Current Sony SXRD 1080p/4K Panels - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 2055 Old 12-14-2015, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony SXRD Degradation Thread - Effects All Current Sony SXRD 1080p/4K Panels

More recently the issue of brightness, and more severely, contrast loss reports on Sony 4K projectors have been reported. This issue also effects 1080p SXRD panels. This thread is to help make people aware of the issue and to get people to measure their units and report here what their findings are. This will hopefully lead to an official word from Sony about a possible fix for future SXRD based Sony projectors. This is a hardware issue and not something that can be reversed through a firmware update. Though it may be possible to halt or slow down the effects by changing how these projectors work electronically. Hopefully this thread will help an update come.

It has been speculated that contrast and brightness loss due to panel degradation is common among all LCD-variant units. While this may be true to some extent, it is no where near as fast acting like it is on Sony's SXRD panels. Remember this contrast and brightness loss seems to start to happen around the 500 hour mark and goes downhill pretty quickly from that point. Recently cine4home, a German professional review site, measured many of the JVC DLA-X500 units they sold to customers before they sold these units and then after a long period of time. Most of the units had in excess of 600 hours on them and showed a slight brightness increase with basically no loss in contrast, color gamut shrinkage or any other dramatic change. Those findings can be found here.

Ekki of cine4home recently posted that he has started measuring Sony SXRD projectors and plans to have a write up regarding his findings. I have PM'ed him and asked him to message me when he has those results. These should be very accurate before and after contrast/brightness loss measurements since each unit they sold and remeasured has a report on what that unit measured when it was sold. These are the "C4H" edition units, aka cherry picked units, that people can buy pre-calibrated and to know they bought a unit that was top performing.


So What Is The Issue?


As far back as few years ago, there have been scattered reports from members on the forum that they've experienced a large loss in contrast performance with their Sony SXRD projector. In the Sony VPL-vw1000 thread, a lengthy discussion about the issue started here. If you want to, read through several pages and I suggest you do it as it will be more informative then this thread alone, but I will quote some of the more interesting and pertinent information obtained in that discussion below:

This was a post talking about one THX calibrator's experience with contrast loss on Sony SXRD projectors:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saar1 View Post
Here's some rather negative news. Copied from a private forum for THX certified calibrators and written by one of my European counterparts. I have about 500 hours on my 600 but never did measure black level when I calibrated it new, and the picture has remained so good that I haven't bothered putting my meter back on it. Knowing that the 600 never had the greatest black level I've always done my best to ignore it.


An other "big fly in the ointment" is that the Sony SXRD panels "self destructs". After a few hundred hours its black-level is raised quite a lot, the gamma is totally off, and on/off contrast is reduced to half the contrast of a new projector.

The problem is an issue I have observed in a lot of Sony projectors. After a couple of hundred hours, that gamma starts changing quite drastically in the low end of the grayscale, as the projectors black level i raised. Often a default gamma of 2.2 vil measure below 1.8 from 0 to 30-40 IRE, and from there and upward it measures a somewhat correct 2.2. The impact on picture quality is poor black-level, and severe loss of contrast. This is not unique to VW300/350/500/600/1000/1100, but is observed in all Sony projectors. It seams like the optical engine deteriorates over time, with lower light output in the bright end, and at the same time light output in the dark end is raised quite a lot. Often I have to recommend customers with HW projectors to by a video processor, to be able to calibrate a somewhat linear gamma. This will unfortunately not solve the problem with raised black level, its gamma correction only. I usually measure between 6-7000:1 native on/off contrast on the VW1000/1100, and after less than 1000 hours operation, the contrast is refused to less than 3000:1, often as low as 2300:1. All my clients have sold their Sony 4K's, as Sony offer no solution or repair.


Sony has developed a software for calibrating multipoint gamma in their premium projectors, called "Projector Calibration Pro". I tried to correct some of this issues with the Sony Projector Calibration Pro software, but it didn’t work. The reason for this is that their gamma equalizer isn’t working properly. When calibrating gamma, adjustments done at one point in the gamma equalizer, is affecting the points over and under the one that is being adjusted. That way, it is impossible to obtain a linear gamma. I also encountered quite a lot of color banding when using the gamma equalizer.
To make this tool work, engineers have to look at the width off impact each adjustment point affects. This needs to be perfect, so that each adjustment point reaches the next adjustment point, but with no overlapping. Getting this perfect is mandatory to be able to calibrate gamma without generating banding.
I would also like to have a 21-point gamma adjustment possibility. Todays software can chose between 10-point and 64-point. 64-point is very time-consuming, and 10-point is a bit imprecise. One of the reasons I would prefer a 21-point scale, is that most high-end test pattern generators have 21-point patterns as maximum. This has been reported back to Sony engineers, but there still is no updated calibration tool. If it indeed worked perfect, it would of course not recover the loss of on/off contrast, merely correct gamma.

The reason I write this, is so that you guys don't end like I did, recommending a projector that turns out to self-destructs within a short timespan. It does not seem to be any improvement in the upcoming 2016 models either, since they use the same panels as the 2014/2015 models. The newest full-HD panels (for example the HW55) deteriorates much slower than the 4K panels.
If you read through the posts there were a few other members who had measured their units and showed significant losses in contrast. These 1000ES/1100ES started with native contrast between 14000:1-17000:1 (depending on throw and unit to unit variation) and end up with contrast as low as 2000:1 before their unit even hit 2000 hours of use.

Some various quotes from members regarding the issue:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS3771 View Post
There's definitely some truth to this I think. I've been scratching my head over what on Earth happened to my Sony's (1100) black levels since about six months - I've had the PJ since 2 years. Image is still stunning like new - but definitely see a degradation of black levels over time - I played with all this gamma and black level stuff - and nothing seems to matter. The whole screen - like when you turn on the PJ - which is used to be pitch black during the first year or so is now looking grey - and nothing I've done seems to be resetting to this the original levels. Of course, when I pop in blurays with good black levels, all seems to be fine - but I've noticed inconsistent black levels when the source material's black levels are not optimal - and I suspect the PJ is partly to blame although I don't know anything about gamma droop and all those terms you guys are throwing out there. What makes it amusing is Sony prides itself for exceptional black levels and a contrast ratio of a million:1. I'm planning on upgrading to 5000ES three years down the road if there's nothing better than that at that price point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Having calibrated my 1000 many times over the past couple of years I've definitely noticed that the gamma changes, and it's usually when I notice that I do a re-cal. But after calibration all looks great again. I've always put this down to bulb changes, but based on all of the above, perhaps not... Anyway, once calibration is redone and the gamma curve is restored (via Lumagen 17^3 LUT) the image is once again fantastic.

I measured ON/OFF on the last calibration (26' throw, wide open iris) at ~7000:1. This was using a Klein K10-A measuring off the screen. Pretty certain the first time I measured the projector when new it was higher... but that may just be memory lapse.

My biggest problem is uniformity. On a 100 IRE white field it is clearly wrong these days. I don't notice during films but it's definitely there and am concerned it will only get worse over time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls View Post
...I've been talking about SXRD degradation on this thread since 2012. The following post from well over a year ago was the first time I had proof...I'm not sure all 3 of my units had the issue, so YMMV.

Sony VPL-vw1000

This is something I might need to worry about getting corrected every two years or so. YMMV depending on high/low lamp, and amount of use. Still would not pick another projector. But also wouldn't invest in a 5000.

January 2012 when I first brought up the concern--

Sony VPL-vw1000

From earlier this year, kind of a good point I made if I do say so myself:

My calibrator noted degradation between multiple trips, but no where near as bad as the previous issues on earlier generations. No consensus here on that either. If it was a major problem you would be hearing a lot more than from me by now. However, the bottom line is there is organic material in this design, so it seems to be that it is never going to be like DLP for longetivity. I would never buy a used unit without knowing the exact history (from my experience).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
My VW1000ES3 has now 1450 hours on the lamp.
I have made some contrast measurements, Iris OFF, lamp on high, and it measures around 2133: 1 in contrast.
That's crazy - a new Sony VPL-VW1000 has a contrast level of approximately 15.000 to 18.000:1 in this setting.
The projector is now over 2 years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
OK, I figured out how to get the 0 IRE measurements using my meter at about 1.5 feet from and facing the projector. I came up with a contrast ratio with IRIS off, Lamp High, Contrast 100, and Brightness 50 of only 3700:1. This is a new lamp. The projector is just over 2 years old with just under 1900 hours on it. I guess I just got used to the raised black floor over time and ignorance was bliss. Looking objectively at the 0 IRE screen, it's definitely too bright. This is not bliss and the drop in contrast is unacceptable for a relatively new projector still under 3 yr warranty (I think) that wasn't cheap. Add in the $2500 upgrade for crap I didn't need and a board with no HDR support, I'm even more pissed now. There's definitely something going on here that Sony needs to address.

Where do I sign up for the new class action lawsuit!!!!

Seriously, are there any lawyers in this thread? Send me a PM and let's get the ball rolling....

Contrast loss is also an issue that effects 1080p SXRD panels as well. Some detailed information regarding that can be found here and here.


It should also be noted that there is little in the way of knowing exactly what causes the issue. Ekki over at cine4home seems to have some information pertaining to the issue and he states that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
...BTW: UV and heat have NOTHING at all to do with this (in contrary). Everyone who says otherwise is not as much of an expert as he claims to be.


Regards,
Ekki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
@G-Rex
I do not want to offend anyone, but an "expert" should not spread false information. The claim that D-ILA projectors lose contrast is as false as the claim that SXRD / D-ILA suffers from UV and heat.

@turls
SXRD / D-ILA are inorganic.

@audvid
A heavy Gamma / Color space drift with the Sony HW series is already being discussed for over a year in Germany. Some older HW/VW machines show also a contrast loss (not all though). Again, these things have nothing to do with excessive use. In contrary, heavy used machines hardly degrade at all.


The 4K models do not show the same Gamma drift / CS-shrinkage because of their PWM gamma. However, if the black level of the 4K models can degrade under certain circumstances (like the HW series), we started to check last week.




Regards,
Ekki


Where Do We Go From Here?


Forum Member W.Mayer in the $20,000+ subforum currently has a Sony VPL-VW5000ES and has spoken directly to the Sony engineers who delivered it and helped set this unit up. His remarks show that Sony does in fact know about this issue (English is not his first language):

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post
Yes I talk about the cr.drop with the VIPs from Sony during their stay here.
Every pr. suffer from degradation over time one more than the other but Sony have taken action to address this issue they told me.
The last generation 300/500Models already got some improvements with should make it better and as Sony told me they working on further improvements on this as well.
When a VW1100 (I have measure about 9-10K:1 cr. from 5 units in early 2012)witch have 9500:1 cr.and it lost over some years some cr. so you end up with about 4000 to 5000:1.
That looks together in combination with a dynamic Iris not bad!
Now as the 5000 have almost double this cr. in the beginning you should have in some years may 9000:1 a good number very close to the VW1100 number when you compare it with a brand new one.
On top is the new Laser dimming function that is may better than any adaptive iris as there is likely not any clipping!
But this is all theory no one knows for sure if may because of a Laser the drop is not as big as compare with a lamp based pr.
Also have to take into account under what circumstances this pr. works( humidity,smoking room or not, much dust in the air or not,use it many times a week or just 1 time a months and so on) so all this can affect the issue above.

There have been reports from Sony that the newest 65ES 1080p SXRD projector has some countermeasures in place to prevent contrast loss. We don't currently know what these countermeasures are and if/how effective they will be. This is also the only projector that has been commented on about any types of countermeasures being take to prevent contrast loss. Other units don't seem to have such countermeasures in place. This was reported by Ekki of Cine4home:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
- Sony never releases native contrast numbers for any of their home theater projectors,

- They did launch countermeasures, for example in their new HW65 series.


Regards,
Ekki
How Can I Measure My Unit?


To get the ball rolling and get more users to post their contrast performance, we need people to measure their units. This is fairly easy to do and only requires a lux meter, tripod, and a couple test patterns. Free 0% Black and 100% White full screen test patterns can be obtained here if you don't have a way on your own to display these test patterns. If you don't have a lux meter you can obtain one of two relatively cheap ones here and here from Amazon. The latter being more accurate but more expensive. A guide on how to use the lux meter can be found here and this guide can be used for any lux meter, not just the one listed in the thread title to measure on/off contrast.

If you currently own any Sony SXRD projector from the past few years I highly recommend you get the hardware and software needed to measure your unit. This is especially so if you've dished out a ton of money for one the expensive 4K models. As noted above, this is an issue that appears to effect ALL current SXRD projectors. If you do measure your projectors, please post the results here. There are various reviews for projectors out there that can be used to obtain what native contrast was when these units were new. I highly suggest reading reviews from cine4home.de or soundandvision.com and check out their reviews as their numbers for contrast in their reviews are very trustworthy.
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post #2 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 06:39 AM
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I think it may be hard to gather data on this.

I'm an amateur calibrator. I invested a lot of time learning to calibrate my plasma and like the results. But somethings I do (Like using contact mode on a flat panel) would probably horrify some professionals.

I 'played' around with my 40ES. And quickly learned that calibrating a projector is a huge PITA compared to a panel due to all the variables involved. And my equipment is VERY entry level.

My 40ES was new in the box and had less than twenty hours on it when I ran these tests. It's now about 9 months later and I have about 100 hours on it. I haven't taken any new readings. All tests were done with full screen white or black fields and some of this is from memory and should be taken with grain of salt.

During the first test I was in a light controlled garage that had light tan walls. 100 inch white screen from a 15 foot throw. Under these conditions on/off was 2166:1 Black level was 0.0081 ftL

I did a second test...dark room...throw of about 4-5 feet....42 inch display size on some white material I had lying around (This was the only room I can secure from our toddler until we move into our new house). On/off under these conditions was 6940:1 (something the projector probably isn't capable of). Black level was 0.0339 ftL

I just don't think my readings were accurate and were too influenced by the conditions.

I'm also not convinced that this issue is very wide spread. I lived through the Rear Projection SXRD Wars ( I went through two TVs and three optical blocks before Sony replaced second TV with a LED set) and was leery of SXRD front projectors. But pretty much everyone said it was fine and has been for years (and I doubt Sony would even dip their toes in these waters again if they hadn't figured it out). So unless Sony changed something to reduce costs (which is certainly possible) I'm not sure why this is suddenly showing up now. Of course I can afford to remain calm...my investment is low. And this projector is just a stop gap until JVC comes out with true 4K and prices come down a bit.

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post #3 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 06:40 AM
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Interesting ... definitely keeping track of this.

I don't have measuring equipment - but if anyone in the Vienna VA (Northern VA) area has a meter I can borrow, I would love to test my 500ES (S1-- whatever that means). Mine was among the later units that shipped with the 1.20A firmware. I have about 500 hours so far.

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post #4 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 01:57 PM
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FYI, concerning measured native contrast on a new Sony VPL-VW1100ES.....

The highest measured native contrast ratio (Advanced Iris disabled, High lamp mode) was 6,500:1.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...tGm5grcmZ8i.99

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post #5 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 02:01 PM
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I followed Ekki's advice on the Sony 1100 thread and tackled the 80+ page German forum Hi-DefForum.de where the largest amount of central posting about the post RPTV Sony SXRD degradation has come from. I made it through 60 something of the pages and I also don't speak German so I was stuck using Google Translate. I sent Ekki a PM hoping he would review what I thought I was seeing. It's 10 days later and he hasn't responded so I'm going to go ahead and put the information out there. I know we have a number of European regulars that I am hoping will add to, amplify and correct what it looks like I saw.

Ekki:

I followed your advice and went through the 80 page Sony thread about panel degradation and contrast loss. http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-94-13697.html I don't know German so I was stuck using Google Translate but I believe I was able to follow the gist. If I may ask you to verify what I found out to make sure that I understand the results as they stand with regards to Sony projectors. This way I can make a report back to the forum and try to clear up misunderstandings.

The initial problem [on the German forum] it appeared most of the reported units were HW50's. There also appear to be some VW90's and 95s affected as well. None of the 4k units reported problems like that of the HW50, and many Hi-Def forum members sought out 4k units as a possible way to move forward with Sony projectors. On what I read (and what you posted in the AVS Sony 1100es thread) the 300/500es do not show this error. It was unclear to me whether the VW1000/1100es got a clean bill of health as well, but I did not see any 1000/1100 owners report these problems in the 80 page thread I was reading.

I read the test thread Cine4Home did with the HW40 and HW55 http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/Sony...ngzeittest.htm where your test appeared to show much more robust panel life with easily re-calibratable changes over a lengthy amount of time, which could indicate that Sony has made the necessary corrections to it's projector so that the panels do not degrade so rapidly.

Sony specifically stated the HW65 no longer had the reported defect.

If you could help me out here, I would appreciate it. I personally really enjoy your website even through Google Translate and I value your knowledge highly.

My takeaways from this:


-The German forum primarily saw degradation in the less expensive and older Sony Projectors.

-There is relatively little information in the German forum that I saw that involved any of the 4k models except as a possible replacement for the affected older 1080p projectors.

-Ekki on his forum subequently tested HW40 and HW55 and found much better panel life (if I understood it correctly using Google Translate.) A few forum members did complain of panel degradation on the HW40 and HW55 but the problem appeared to be nowhere as pervasive as it was on the older pjs.

-The main projectors affected seemed to be the HW50, VW90 and VW95.

-I attempted to clear up the issue about VW1000 and VW1100es and frankly there isn't anything on that forum that flatly rules out panel damage or that states for certain that those owners had experienced panel degradation. On the one hand the panels are different in the 4k models, but on the other hand the VW1000/1100's share a lot of the same light engine as the highly affected HW50.

-According to Ekki, Sony began addressing the issue with the 300/350 and 500/600es and Sony declared the issue "solved" with the Sony HW65.

Since this time we have had a number of owners measure contrast on their 1000es/1100es with a fairly large divergence of results, but all of which seem to show contrast numbers substantially lower than a new unit.

Please feel free to add clarity as this is a serious issue.
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post #6 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 02:21 PM
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I read the entire thread as well. I know a little German (my mother is German) but used Google translate as well. I certainly may have missed it but I didn't see anything that made be fear for my 40ES.

Just for yucks I did some more tests this morning. Dark but not entirely light controlled room....roughly 42 inch image....throw of about 4-5 feet. Low lamp. No screen...I taped some white material I had lying around to the wall. Lamp is pretty new....it's a spare...less than ten hours on it. iD3 meter and HCFR was used. Can't really do anything else until we move.

My Sony 40ES measured at 1636:1 on/off and 101:1 ANSI.

This is obviously hampered by the room I had for testing so I packed up the Sony and fired up my new Epson 2040.

The Epson with Iris off measured 347:1 on/off and 61:1 ANSI. With iris on it measured 630:1 on/off and 53:1 ANSI.

This seems to be in line with what most professional reviews would have you expect regarding the jump in contrast to the Sony and both projectors seem to be affected by the room in similar fashion. Of course the 40ES looks tons better and pretty much the same as it always has.
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post #7 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
FYI, concerning measured native contrast on a new Sony VPL-VW1100ES.....

The highest measured native contrast ratio (Advanced Iris disabled, High lamp mode) was 6,500:1.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...tGm5grcmZ8i.99
Thanks for the link Steve. If that review is accurate then the Sony 1100 has always depended on the Dynamic Iris much more heavily than previously thought and it also puts at least some of the recent contrast measurements into a different perspective. That also explains why the 500/600's contrast measurement are about the same.
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post #8 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 03:11 PM
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BTW, I'm not saying that S&V is the be all, end all authority. It just happens to be the only native CR measurement that I've found to quote from an online source. I'm guessing that there are others and if so, they should also be linked here. I'd like to see more so that we have a true native CR baseline from which to judge against. 6,500:1 is a lot closer to what I'm seeing than 20,000:1, since my CR measurement wasn't using the best of meters.

As pointed out before, Sony does not publish native CR, just values using DI with no explanation as to how the figures were measured either.

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post #9 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billqs View Post
According to Ekki, Sony began addressing the issue with the 300/350 and 500/600es and Sony declared the issue "solved" with the Sony HW65.
Aren't these and the 1000/1100es projectors all using the same SXRD panel? I'd love to hear from Ekki or Sony on how this was addressed and if any of it can be applied to the 1100ES. My guess is that Ekki can't say and Sony won't respond either.

I know that some chuckle-heads ended up annoying Ekki to the point that he vowed not to return to the Sony VPL-VW1000 thread. Hopefully, he'll consider joining the discussion here. Let's make sure that the same thing doesn't happen again!
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post #10 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 04:01 PM
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Are any of the latest 4K Projectors from Sony Affected? VPL-VW320ES/ VPL-VW520ES which are the VPL-VW365ES / VPL-VW665ES in the US.
As that is what I am considering purchasing, and if they are I will stay clear. I don't particularly want to deal with Sony on QC issues as it brings back the optical block nightmares I had with my SXRD RPTV.
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post #11 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabz View Post
Are any of the latest 4K Projectors from Sony Affected? VPl-VW320ES/VPL-VW520ES which are the VPL-VW365ES VPL-VW665ES in the US.
As that is what I am considering purchasing, and if they are I will stay clear. I don't particularly want to deal with Sony on QC issues as it brings back the optical block nightmares I had with my SXRD RPTV.
From the info presented thus far, the only model that has been claimed to be 100% problem free is the HW65ES. None of the 4K models seem to be 100% in the clear, but there has been some information presented that the 350ES and 600ES do have some counter measures to help slow the issue. But the 65ES is brand new and I doubt anyone has put enough time on the unit thus far to confirm if there has been no panel degradation. I also haven't seen anyone post new and 500+ hour contrast measurements on the 600ES or 350ES so who knows how well the claimed implemented counter measures work. I'm not saying they won't work, hopefully they will, but I haven't personally seen any info posted on it yet. The claim that the 65ES is problem free is coming from Sony in an unofficial manner so we'll have to see if this turns out to be true as well.
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post #12 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 04:50 PM
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I am sitting six feet away from a four year old VW85, still in its box and never run. Always one to look for the positive in any situation I am guessing that I no longer need be concerned - as I have been of late - about locating a spare bulb for use whenever.
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Aren't these and the 1000/1100es projectors all using the same SXRD panel? I'd love to hear from Ekki or Sony on how this was addressed and if any of it can be applied to the 1100ES. My guess is that Ekki can't say and Sony won't respond either.

I know that some chuckle-heads ended up annoying Ekki to the point that he vowed not to return to the Sony VPL-VW1000 thread. Hopefully, he'll consider joining the discussion here. Let's make sure that the same thing doesn't happen again!
You're right they use the same spec .74 panels, but they have made an engineering change to the production or it could be something else in the optical block or light engine. If the 1100's contrast ratio really is 6500:1 then it's possible that the measurements don't show as severe a drop as we had feared when we were speculating a 20k to 1 contrast ratio. If it is only 6500 then that explains Sony's refusal to publish the on/off contrast. It would mean they have one amazing DI.
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post #14 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 06:38 PM
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I am sitting six feet away from a four year old VW85, still in its box and never run. Always one to look for the positive in any situation I am guessing that I no longer need be concerned - as I have been of late - about locating a spare bulb for use whenever.
Then what you want to do is set it up, take a meter and record the contrast ratio.
Then do the exact same thing 500 hours later, with the same projector/room/light settings.
And meter placement.
See if the contrast ratio has dropped dramatically...
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post #15 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
From the info presented thus far, the only model that has been claimed to be 100% problem free is the HW65ES. None of the 4K models seem to be 100% in the clear, but there has been some information presented that the 350ES and 600ES do have some counter measures to help slow the issue. But the 65ES is brand new and I doubt anyone has put enough time on the unit thus far to confirm if there has been no panel degradation.
Aren't the HW365ES / HW665ES brand new too?
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post #16 of 2055 Old 12-15-2015, 07:59 PM
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Aren't the HW365ES / HW665ES brand new too?
They are new, but I haven't seen any information either way on either this forum or the 2 German sources where most of the info we have has come from. The 500/600 and the 300/350 got a partial solution to slow down degrading, and unofficially Sony stated they had corrected the error on the HW65es.

I would think going forward the new projectors would incorporate whatever Sony employed as a fix, and it's unknown exactly how the degradation issue has affected the 4k models, but it's best to stick to what we know, and there's been nothing specific said about these models either way.
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post #17 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 02:31 AM
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Has anyone heard whether the Sony Cinema projectors are also subject to this?
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post #18 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 02:47 AM
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Ouch! This is going to hurt Sony's already hampered business. There audio/video is already taking a beating. Manufactures that use DLP can use this as a marketing ploy to gain more customers.
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post #19 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 03:58 AM
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Please read this last post from me:

Sony Laser 4K Pr. short first test

I hope you not have any problem to read as " yes my english is not my first language"
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post #20 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
BTW, I'm not saying that S&V is the be all, end all authority. It just happens to be the only native CR measurement that I've found to quote from an online source. I'm guessing that there are others and if so, they should also be linked here. I'd like to see more so that we have a true native CR baseline from which to judge against. 6,500:1 is a lot closer to what I'm seeing than 20,000:1, since my CR measurement wasn't using the best of meters.

As pointed out before, Sony does not publish native CR, just values using DI with no explanation as to how the figures were measured either.
Cine4home got 8000-18000:1 static, depending on configuration.

Quote:
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Please read this last post from me:

Sony Laser 4K Pr. short first test

I hope you not have any problem to read as " yes my english is not my first language"
Black text is really hard to read for those who use the dark AVS Forum theme.
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post #21 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 07:45 AM
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Great to hear that Sony is actively working on improvements, i would be more worried if they didn`t do anything but it appears that they already took some action with the HW65 and possibly also the newer 300/500 models.
Another thing i`m curious about is if they will add these new improvements for new 1100 units in production, i have ordered a VW1100 from Japan and it has been delayed for several weeks due to that some essential part is undersupplied. It sure makes you wonder if this "essential" part could be a revised panel or some other updated part to address the cr loss problem.

I guess time will tell..
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post #22 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 08:08 AM
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Can someone measure a HC5 or HC9000 from Mitsubishi. I own one but I did not see a shift in colours, at least in comparision with my calibrated PC Monitor and my ipad air colours do not seem to be purplish, when I display a red test pattern an compare it. Contrast semms to be as good as from the start, but i do not have anything to compare it directly.
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post #23 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BakeApples View Post
Great to hear that Sony is actively working on improvements, i would be more worried if they didn`t do anything but it appears that they already took some action with the HW65 and possibly also the newer 300/500 models.
Another thing i`m curious about is if they will add these new improvements for new 1100 units in production, i have ordered a VW1100 from Japan and it has been delayed for several weeks due to that some essential part is undersupplied. It sure makes you wonder if this "essential" part could be a revised panel or some other updated part to address the cr loss problem.

I guess time will tell..
I had to wait four weeks to get a new optical block from Sony Japan to fix my VW1100ES. There were none left in stock and was told they were waiting on new ones to be manufactured. My guess is that this is the part that you're waiting on.
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post #24 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I had to wait four weeks to get a new optical block from Sony Japan to fix my VW1100ES. There were none left in stock and was told they were waiting on new ones to be manufactured. My guess is that this is the part that you're waiting on.
Ok, how long ago is it roughly they switched the block on your unit?
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post #25 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 08:24 AM
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Welcome to the "Club". Those of us that purchased the $12K 70" Qualia SXRD Rear Projection sets in 2005 began having failures of the Optical Block just around 2 years. Sony initially responded by replacing the Optical Block. However, when the extent of the problem became apparent, Sony abandoned the RP SXRD sets and offered the owners a 60" LCD set as replacement. At the time, I wondered on the AVS forum whether the FP SXRD sets would have a similar problem. There was much speculation about the cause, but the most credible was that the LCOS strata was suffering from over-temperature. Please be prepared for the past to be prologue.
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post #26 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post
Please read this last post from me:

Sony Laser 4K Pr. short first test

I hope you not have any problem to read as " yes my english is not my first language"
Thanks for keeping us apprised of the situation. You've been a big help!
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post #27 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, how long ago is it roughly they switched the block on your unit?
About 3-4 weeks ago.
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post #28 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Welcome to the "Club". Those of us that purchased the $12K 70" Qualia SXRD Rear Projection sets in 2005 began having failures of the Optical Block just around 2 years. Sony initially responded by replacing the Optical Block. However, when the extent of the problem became apparent, Sony abandoned the RP SXRD sets and offered the owners a 60" LCD set as replacement. At the time, I wondered on the AVS forum whether the FP SXRD sets would have a similar problem. There was much speculation about the cause, but the most credible was that the LCOS strata was suffering from over-temperature. Please be prepared for the past to be prologue.
I too suffered from engine block issue on my 60A3000 SXRD RPTV as probably everyone else. I am fairly certain the same block was being used in the front projectors as I had been in the service menu on the display and found the ability to flip the image upside down which could serve for a front projector in a different unit.

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post #29 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Welcome to the "Club". Those of us that purchased the $12K 70" Qualia SXRD Rear Projection sets in 2005 began having failures of the Optical Block just around 2 years. Sony initially responded by replacing the Optical Block. However, when the extent of the problem became apparent, Sony abandoned the RP SXRD sets and offered the owners a 60" LCD set as replacement. At the time, I wondered on the AVS forum whether the FP SXRD sets would have a similar problem. There was much speculation about the cause, but the most credible was that the LCOS strata was suffering from over-temperature. Please be prepared for the past to be prologue.
I seem to remember rear projection SXRD failing much sooner after release. My A2000 developed problems almost immediately. My A3000 lasted for about four years. When did Sony release their first SXRD front projector? 2008? Why haven't they all dropped dead by now?
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post #30 of 2055 Old 12-16-2015, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I seem to remember rear projection SXRD failing much sooner after release. My A2000 developed problems almost immediately. My A3000 lasted for about four years. When did Sony release their first SXRD front projector? 2008? Why haven't they all dropped dead by now?
I also had an optical block failure back in the day on my rear projection Sony tv. The symptoms are totally different between the rear projection units and the front projector issues being discussed on this thread.
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