BenQ W11000 : 4K DLP projector - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Why is it every time I try to look at these comparison screenshots I only ever see 1 image?
Ive tried IE, chrome, firefox.
Am I crazy or something, they have never worked for me?
I thought the same thing, but then realized that the change is subtle and I was just missing it.
The picture flips by placing your mouse pointer within the frame (no need to click), then changes back when you move the pointer off the picture to a different part of the screen.
The blocking in the eyes is definitely noticeable, but seeing it on the computer monitor makes it difficult to gauge the impact on the big screen.
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post #242 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 01:24 AM
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If upscaling algorithms were simply taking a single pixel and quadrupling it on UHD displays it would look awful. So yes, your example of one way to upscale is extremely easy in terms of video processing, but doing it in a way that yields subjectively pleasing results is not. In fact, it can be extremely IPC hungry to do in real time.
And, you completely missed the point.

The poster I responded to posted they were concerned that most content was 1080p Blu-ray and we would be watching that in 4k. In other words, a concern something might be lost watching 1080p content in 4k as was often the case watching a DVD on an HDTV with poor quality upscaler.

This actually was an issue (and remains an issue, actually, with poorly engineered solutions) with the transition from DVD to Blu-ray partially because 1920x1080 is not a multiple of 720x480. There is truly no way you can replicate something approximating 720x480 with a 1080p panel.

This is in contrast to UHD, where 3840x2160 is a clean 2x multiple in both horizontal and vertical of 1920x1080. Would it look worse to simply do a simple upscale rather than advanced video processing? Yes, but that is not the point. The point is, you can actually replicate 1920x1080 in a UHD panel by doing a simple nearest neighbor upscale. This upscale will contain exactly the same amount of information as a 1080p image; it will have aliasing, but it should be a similar type of aliasing that you would have seen in a 1080p image when blown up to a large size.

SO, the point is, even if your 4K device has a poor upscaling algorithm it will likely not significantly worse than how that content would have looked on a native 1080p device. It would look worse than a 4k set with advanced video processing, but that does not speak to the point of concern of the previous poster. This is in contrast to the DVD -> HD transition, where DVDs looked horrendous on poor HD sets because there is no clean way to get 720x480 to 1920x1080.

Last edited by Ruined; 02-08-2016 at 01:27 AM.
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post #243 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 04:55 AM
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Hopefully the 4x pixel upscaling Ruined mentions is used for a low latency mode in these new pjs.
Scaling need not introduce (much) latency, Lumagen's, with some of the best scaling on the market, introduce almost no latency. Why so many projectors have such enormous lag, or have such huge drops in quality in "game mode" I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
The poster I responded to posted they were concerned that most content was 1080p Blu-ray and we would be watching that in 4k. In other words, a concern something might be lost watching 1080p content in 4k as was often the case watching a DVD on an HDTV with poor quality upscaler.
The biggest problem, by far, with scaling DVD (480i) to HD (1080p) was not the scaling, it's the fact that DVD doesn't have enough information for "HD" screen sizes. SD was OK when people sat 10-12' from a ~25" TV. When you've only got 240 lines of chroma information, there's only so much you can do.

Of course there's the other huge issue with DVD, in that it was stored interlaced, and often had terrible mastering, and on top of that there were more bad deinterlacers than good ones. People seem to conflate deinterlacing issues on DVD/SD with scaling issues.

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This actually was an issue (and remains an issue, actually, with poorly engineered solutions) with the transition from DVD to Blu-ray partially because 1920x1080 is not a multiple of 720x480. There is truly no way you can replicate something approximating 720x480 with a 1080p panel.
This represents a fundamental missunderstanding of resampling/sampling theorem. The whole "even multiple" thing is a myth, there's nothing in sampling theorem that says anything about requiring multiples for resampling. In fact it's quite the opposite, so long as your destination sampling frequency (resolution) is higher than twice the bandwidth of the signal, the resampled signal will contain all the information of the original.

All this "even multiple" BS seems to come from people who test scaling/resampling using contrived test patterns that are only good for checking 1:1 pixel mapping and focus. These patterns were not sampled in the first place (they were created pixel by pixel) and cannot be resampled at all without being damaged, even multiples or not.
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post #244 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
.......................................... Uhm US regulations,EU regulations are for 8K lumens. BTW, Panasonic will be releasing 5K lumens units for the education market, same regulation.

Vivitek is launching its 8K lumens unit, and Christie is launching 11/12K lumens single chippers. Optoma has announced 6K lumens launch. NEC is also bringing new laser-phosphor units to the show. Epson will be bringing laser-phosphor inorganic lcd panels, inorganic colorwheel to the show, no further info, yet.
It is indeed US regulations that will be limiting the laser light output to 3000 lumens for consumer based installations. Panasonic is likely able to use 5000K lumens because the projector is for the commercial market.

An inorganic colorwheel from Epson is very interesting, it seems that a single blue laser to white phosphor-light source is on the table with the RGB colorwheel and LCD chip refreshing at 3X the pictures' refresh rate. This will eliminate the need for dichroic mirrors, very interesting possibilities!

Last edited by LumenChip; 02-08-2016 at 11:02 AM.
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post #245 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 01:02 PM
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And now Barco has one up over Christie with another extra K lumens, and already the 4K version, in addition to the 13K WUXGA F-90. F-90 here the PD heritage shines through;-).

ISE: Barco launches smaller 4K 3 chippers HDX Flex @19k , 14K and 12K Lumens
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post #246 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 01:09 PM
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Barco is also launching a single chipper based on this new 0.67" 4K DMD

ISE: Barco launches smaller 4K 3 chippers HDX Flex @19k , 14K and 12K Lumens

As revealed in the video.

Was going to ask Christie about its plans following its announcement of 0.67" WUXGA chip LASER-Phosphor projector. Now Barco has beat them to it;-).
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post #247 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 01:13 PM
 
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I don't know if you can answer this @donaldk , but can these new DMDs be used in a 3-chip application? If not, that means the only 3-chip 4K solution right now is much larger 1.4" DMD. Why aren't we seeing the .9" 4K DMD TI has had for years now?
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post #248 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 01:25 PM
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I will ask TI when I meet them tomorrow. Any other things I need to look for when reviewing this chip/projector(s)? I have told you guys befor several times Panasonic is shipping a 2560x1600 3 DMD pixel shifting laser-phosphor projector using 0.9" DMDs. For pure brightness 3 DMD is no longer required as exemplified by Barco and Christie announcements for this show. As these new machines offer more brightness than this Panasonic.
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post #249 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 01:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
I will ask TI when I meet them tomorrow. Any other things I need to look for when reviewing this chip/projector(s)? I have told you guys befor several times Panasonic is shipping a 2560x1600 3 DMD pixel shifting laser-phosphor projector using 0.9" DMDs. For pure brightness 3 DMD is no longer required as exemplified by Barco and Christie announcements for this show. As these new machines offer more brightness than this Panasonic.
Can you ask them if the extra tilt aids in contrast performance in a meaningful way? Or is it there simply to aid in the pixel shifting technology? And maybe ask them what potential this new DMD has with native on/off contrast in a well built consumer light engine?
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post #250 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 03:05 PM
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ask them how they respond to allegations by some here that their methodology for achieving 8 million individual pixels on screen involves "overlap"
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post #251 of 904 Old 02-08-2016, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
ask them how they respond to allegations by some here that their methodology for achieving 8 million individual pixels on screen involves "overlap"
And if that question confuses them then here is a fairly simple one:

What is the fill ratio on screen for each sub-image that is displayed (each 4 million pixels)?

If they can say and it isn't 4 million at a time they can of course say that.

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post #252 of 904 Old 02-09-2016, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I don't know if you can answer this @donaldk , but can these new DMDs be used in a 3-chip application? If not, that means the only 3-chip 4K solution right now is much larger 1.4" DMD. Why aren't we seeing the .9" 4K DMD TI has had for years now?
I just found information on the new 4K Barco F90-4K13 that will also be using the 0.9" DMD.
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post #253 of 904 Old 02-09-2016, 05:09 PM
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No place in pixels shift, just helps a bit with light and contrast, as exemplified by the 0.90" DMD implementations. Indeed, as we found out last night. See my report on it:

ISE: Barco F90 4K projector
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post #254 of 904 Old 02-09-2016, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
No place in pixels shift, just helps a bit with light and contrast, ...
Is there a typo in that sentence? Not sure what, "no place in pixels shift" means.

Thanks,
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post #255 of 904 Old 02-09-2016, 05:57 PM
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Answer to the last question adresed to me above by Seegs.
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post #256 of 904 Old 02-09-2016, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
No place in pixels shift, just helps a bit with light and contrast, ...
Is there a typo in that sentence? Not sure what, "no place in pixels shift" means.

Thanks,
Darin
It seems that the 0.9" DMD is also using pixel shifting and only larger for better contrast and more potent light output.

Last edited by LumenChip; 02-09-2016 at 07:36 PM.
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post #257 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 07:25 AM
 
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It seems that the 0.9" DMD is also using pixel shifting and only larger for better contrast and more potent light output.
The .9" DMD is a native 4K DMD. No pixel shifting technology. TI has had this DMD for a few years now and were trying to peddle it to Barco, Christie and a few other commercial projector manufacturers but no one decided to use it until very recently.

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post #258 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 08:05 AM
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post #259 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The .9" DMD is a native 4K DMD. No pixel shifting technology. TI has had this DMD for a few years now and were trying to peddle it to Barco, Christie and a few other commercial projector manufacturers but no one decided to use it until very recently.
I hope I am not causing any confusion, I am only trying to clarify what I think DonaldK was trying to say. Click DonaldK's Barco link at post 253. It appears this is the first hand info that was passed on by Barco. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding and it is a native 4K chip.

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post #260 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 10:49 AM
 
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I hope I am not causing any confusion, I am only trying to clarify what I think DonaldK was trying to say. Click DonaldK's Barco link at post 253. It appears this is the first hand info that was passed on by Barco. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding and it is a native 4K chip.
I was told several years ago there was a .9" native 4K DMD. It looks like this unit is using a WQXGA resolution native DMD that pixel shifts to 4K. So I'm not sure if this was the DMD I was told about or if there was another .9" native 4K DMD out there. I was also told there was a lot of opposition from commercial manufacturers in using the DMD. A pixel shifting DMD would warrant such opposition I would think so these DMDs may be one in the same.

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post #261 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
ask them how they respond to allegations by some here that their methodology for achieving 8 million individual pixels on screen involves "overlap"
One of the key differences between the TI solution and the competition, TI claims. There is no overlap, where longer switching times for LCOS and LCD may cause crosstalk, according to TI.

I asked Canon today and its solution with four positions does overlap, by design. Barco on the other and uses a simillar approach as TI.
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post #262 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 02:26 PM
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Seegs there has long been rumours about a native 4K DMD that could be implemented in 0.95" HD, 0.96" WUXGA and 0.98" 2K designs.
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post #263 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 02:33 PM
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Nope shifting technology comparable to that of TI, but developed by Barco. Also to be available in HDX 3 DMD series. Press release is out, yet to read it. Peter posted the product page link in the appropriate sub-forum. Yup lists well above the 20K mark. Loki (spelling) will be the two versions of the F-90 by Barco Residential. TI reprsentative told me that this is smething that can be done with all DMDs no additional tilt angle required, so he told me 'I guess you could' when I suggested one could even do this with native 4K DMDs.
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post #264 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LumenChip View Post
It seems that the 0.9" DMD is also using pixel shifting and only larger for better contrast and more potent light output.
And Barco told me it also helps to keep latency as low as possible. Processing introduces delay, but is to be kept to a minimum for especially live events where one doesn't want to ad audio delay. Delay I was quoted for the F-90 is 1.5 Frames.
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Seegs there has long been rumours about a native 4K DMD that could be implemented in 0.95" HD, 0.96" WUXGA and 0.98" 2K designs.
In the fall of 2014, someone who "knows people" told me that a smaller native 4K DMD (smaller as in smaller than the 1.4" commercial DMD) with 14 degree mirror tilt was in the works by TI. I wonder if this is the rumored DMD?
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post #266 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
One of the key differences between the TI solution and the competition, TI claims. There is no overlap, where longer switching times for LCOS and LCD may cause crosstalk, according to TI.

I asked Canon today and its solution with four positions does overlap, by design. Barco on the other and uses a simillar approach as TI.
Sounds like they may have been talking about temporal overlap when the question was meant to be about spatial overlap between the pixels.

Did you ask them anything about the fill ratio on screen for each sub-frame? I don't trust them to give a completely honest answer without answering that. If one subframe fills more than 50% of the screen area with 4 million pixels then flashing another 4 million that also fills more than 50% of the screen area would mean there is some spatial overlap between the sub frames.

If we can't find out sooner then hopefully somebody will take a high speed video close to the screen.

Thanks,
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post #267 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 05:41 PM
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Any word about pricing and availability for the W11000?
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post #268 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 11:44 PM
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Sounds like they may have been talking about temporal overlap when the question was meant to be about spatial overlap between the pixels.
The answer (regarding crosstalk) is worded a little weird, but how could the TI rep misunderstand? Is temporal overlap even a possibility the way these mirrors shift?
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post #269 of 904 Old 02-10-2016, 11:45 PM
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Any word about pricing and availability for the W11000?
I believe I read 6K for the W11000 and 7K for the X12000
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post #270 of 904 Old 02-11-2016, 12:07 AM
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The answer (regarding crosstalk) is worded a little weird, but how could the TI rep misunderstand? Is temporal overlap even a possibility the way these mirrors shift?
I would say no, but since it is possible with the competition (e.g. LCOS) maybe they took the opportunity to point out a problem the competition could have and they don't. That is, the pixels still have some leftover signal from the last sub-frame, kind of like crosstalk with 3D. The JVCs seem like they switch pixels pretty quickly, but not sure what Canon is using.

I wonder what they would say if somebody just asked them what the screen would look like down at the single pixel size with a high speed camera showing a single subframe. Would it be more filled in or more black for a full white image? It isn't like they can keep us from finding that out in the long run, but they may not want people to know that now.

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