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post #1081 of 1105 Old 07-05-2003, 07:47 PM
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I have a Sony G70 with 8" tubes, total light control, 87" wide 16:9 screen. What contrast ratio am I seeing now and how noticebly less is a CR of 2000:1 on the sxrd in comparison?
joe
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post #1082 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 06:14 AM
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Another tidbit from Nishikawa Zenji's forst look at the SXRD, from the oft-quoted http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...30703/dg22.htm article:

The Qualia 004 will initially only be made on order, a bit like a car.

The client has a choice between three zoom lenses:

- wide
- standard
- tele

The wide lens, at its wide end, can throw a 100-inch diagonal 16:9 picture at 3.1 meters

The tele lens, at its tele end, can throw a 100-inch diagonal 16:9 picture at 7.8 meters

For all three lenses, the zoom ratio is about 1.3`1.4
The projector price is 2,400,000 yens, regardless of which zoom lens the client specifies.

Lens shifting is supported, but Nishikawa doesn't mention in his article whether the shifting is both horizontal and vertical.
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post #1083 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 06:56 AM
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Thanks Art, I see.....

Dennis is right about everyone eventually going digital.

As Darinp noted, ideally, budget not an issue, a Qualia now.

However, if maintaining a budget, I would say Electrimask now, inexpensive, calibrated LCOS now and upgrade to Qualia in a couple years as it matures and lessens in price.

Certainly, you will give up contrast for picture size & brightness but with a masking system you'll have your foot in the door on your way to an ideal set up shortly down the road.

Me....... I am pretty happy with my DILA (CR issues and all) and feel comfortable waiting a couple years to see what shakes out in the digital PJ world.

SXRD is the first to 1980 X 1280, however, they certainly won't be the last (or necessarily the best).

Not to belabor my point, but to all of those who desire high CR and are considering shelling out $20K for an SXRD, a masking system should be given equal weight.

Good luck, Art. These are fun times (and tortuous times) to be in the hobby.

Let's not forget this is a first gen product and it will have it's problems (that will improve with time).
Inputs and encryption are other valid reasons to wait, too.

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1084 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 07:23 AM
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Jeff,

I am about to purchase a SX-21 with a panamorph lense and a 87" wide 16x9 greyhawk. I have waiting so long for a projector I just can't wait until the SXRD to get in the game. If my screen wall is black or brown and I get the black molding around the greyhawk is masking going to make much of an improvement? It looks like masking adds almost $2,00O to the price of the screen. It doesn't seem worth it.

Warren
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post #1085 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 10:29 AM
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Warren,

Your SX-21 Panamorph combo will look exceptional. I have a Panamorph on my DILA and really like it.

THe masking will only increase perceived contrast. It is certainly not a necessity. Not knowing your particular likes, I do know Art's. Art likes high CR (and a big picture). A masking system augments CR appreciably. The gray bars top and bottom reduce CR and, to me, reduce the overall cinematic effect.

Agreed, it is an expensive upgrade

May I suggest if budget is an issue, delay (or forget) the anamorphic lens and put the money towards masking. A masked system is best installed early rather than later. You will need an electrical run, possibly IR capability (not mandatory) and a more involved mounting than your typical frame. Given your relatively small screen size and the excellent resolution of the SX-21, I'll venture that at a typical seating distance, you will not have a huge gain in picture quality with the anamorphic lens. Or mount a lesser expensive P-752 (see want ads) and splurge for the masking. I am using a P-752 lens (older model of one you are considering) and it works very well.

Consider black Velux (like velvet) around your frame (more absorptive black). I am only using 2 way masking (horizontal only), as the 4 way was quite an upgrade in price.

For me, masking is imperative. It is a one time investment best made early on and despite the fact that projector's (and possibly screens), speakers, processors, etc. will come and go, the masking will always stay and provide that extra performance that lifts the great cinematic experience to a higher level.

Certainly consider masking. Locate a dealer / user near you and see for yourself the added benefits. It does make a significant difference.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1086 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 11:14 AM
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May I suggest if budget is an issue, delay (or forget) the anamorphic lens and put the money toward masking
Good advise. I agree with Jeff you will get more of an impact and perceived improvement in picture quality from a masking system verses money spent on the lens.

Of course when budget allows I would apply both for the unltimate.
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post #1087 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 11:20 AM
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As someone who has lived with a Pannie since the first pre buy shipment (through leaks and breakages etc) one thing I have over time and projector changes come to dislike is the brighter the projector the more CR errosion by diffusion you get... This is not ghosting and having owned 2 pannies and a few sets of replacement lenses I have seen it on all of them but it is now getting to be something that really annoys me...

Case in point... 2 nights ago I put hiest on... During the opening credits HIEST is displayed in red on a black background... All around the word was a faint reddish glow to the black... For the rest of the film I was questioning how much more ANSI CR was being lost...

I have tried the projector sans lens and the additional percieved sharpness is actually very welcome but the light spill and 4:3 of the projector during HTPC boot (until powerstrip kicks in) was not welcome... Plus I do sometimes big screen game and some games like only 4:3 rez's...

So living with the lens until my next projector is the lesser of evils...
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post #1088 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 11:26 AM
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I think I'm in the minority here as far as masking for a D-ILA. I'm not sure if it is because I am using mine in a room with white walls or something else. I have an M20 that has about the same CR as Jeff's projector. I have a 116" wide Hi-Power that is 16x9 and I use a Panamorph. I tried masking 2.35:1 movies with black velvet and found that it made the black levels look worse to me. The gray blacks from the D-ILA really stood out when put next to something that was very dark. When I don't have the extra masking on there the gray bars appear above and below the movie. However, they aren't that much different than my walls not far from them and my perception is that it really just looks like the screen material is that color. If I didn't know that the projector was projecting light in that area I would just think that area being brighter than black was all due to the screen. So, I don't perceive the high blacks levels to be as much of an issue with the bars there.

--Darin
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post #1089 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 11:27 AM
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Whether I get marking or not is more of a bang for the buck question than a budget question. Based on your responses I will definately reconsider it. Since the biggest weakness (if you believe what you read around here:) (this is my 1st projector, what do I know) of the SX-21 and D-ILA for that matter, is contrast ratio and masking will significantly improve that it seems like I really should go for it.

If you have 2-way masking on a 16 x 9 screen does the masking only improve 4x3 material or does it also improve 16x9 stuff as well?

Warren
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post #1090 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 11:47 AM
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Well,

I can't commnet on your set up and results but to be more specific about mine, all walls are dark gray / black. The ceiling / floor are also very dark. THe front and screen wall are flat black painted walls covered with black GOM and Black innsulshield.

When the film starts, the walls, etc. blend into the black abyss up front.

Only the screen is lit, you cannot even make out the masking. When I remove the masking and project images (as I demostrated to 20 or so AVSers at my meet), I showed that when the DILA gray bars disappear, the image jumps out from the deep black periphery. It is quite impacting on the CR. Conversely, the gray DILA bars hurt the picture (without masking).

Without trying to disprove what Darin sees ( I do believe Darin), Darin may have some interactions from the white walls and hi powered screen but it is hard to imagine masking hurting the picture. However, there is lot of relected light around the room that may be further graying his blacks. However, as I thought about his findings, things became clearer. As Darin says, his front wall is a simlilar gray as the gray DILA bars. So both elements blend in as one homogenous gray. The fact that both grays match is positive. If the masking is darker than the area around the screen, I can see how the two different colors (black velvet masking and gray DILA bars) with a picture on the screen may create a problem. My front wall (masking and front / screen wall) are absolute, deep black. Homogenous all around. Therefore, that is why things look so nice to me with the masking. The black around my screen, gives the perception of the DILA gray blacks as black blacks. The black periphery lends to this positive perception. The gray periphery, I hypothesize around Darin's screen, helps to further enhance the DILA's gray blacks.

Therefore, depending on what the walls, celing, screen area are colored (light versus dark), you may or may not get the maximal impact out of a black masked screen - or it may hurt your image.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1091 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 11:52 AM
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Well using a 16:9 screen you can horizontally mask anything wider than 16:9 (1:1.78) so 1:1.85 all the way up to the 1:2.40 of a Ben Hur all benefit...

4 way masking gives you the ability to mask 1:1.66 down to 4:3 stuff and close the sides off... For me this would be a far secondary concern (all my good stuff is the scope stuff) and given the costs of 4 way electric v 2 way its pretty simple...

I recently saw a very nice IR controllable relay setup that was cheap posted in the screens section... For DIY'ers this is a godsend and a much needed product... Add some drapery controllers velvet and time (sweat and swearing) and use IR control and you have a cheap masking solution... Th is little piece of HW is the lissing link in easy DIY masking.
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post #1092 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 12:05 PM
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Just to put my thoughts on masking... In my imperfect (read non cave) room I also find that having black masking lowers the percieved contrast of the actual image... While a high contrast image (bright image with little bit of dark) the grey bars are a distraction when you have a totally dark scene the black surround clearly stands out as being darker than the image and hence makes your dark scenes look muddy...

I tackled this in the past from a totally opposite tack... Backlighting !! Many of the dedicated room and especially the CRT like cave room people shudder at this solution but I have to say it works exceptionally well...

The trick is to mount you screen a little bit proud from the wall... Put a rope light on a dimmer behind the screen and turn it RIGHT DOWN until there is just a tiny glow from behind the screen... I actually made my setup so that the rope light was recessed into a second box of batton timbers so there was only reflected light (light coming from the rope light hitting the back of the screen and scattering and coming 'around' the batten timber) this meant that no direct lights like sconses or anything were visable and no light was being cast in such a way as it could directly reflect into the room and back at the screen... In the dark I had possibly 1 'candle' power of diffuse glow around the screen edge...

The result is that the eye adjusts... Even a 500:1 digital looked 'black' in this situation and yet it did not steal anything from my whites etc... The only possible downside was in a totally black scene for an extended period of time perhaps my eyes did not adjust and see intended shadow detail but considering I recalibrated with AVIA for black level detection I doubt it with 8 bit DVD's...

Search out a thread called 'Another $20 revelation' I made at the time or similar title... It does work well and really makes a huge difference to percieved black level... Plus I happened to think dimming the lights to a small glow outlining the screen looked pretty professional too especially as it cost me <$20 and was in my (at the time) cheap Davis DLP setup...
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post #1093 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 12:08 PM
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Warren,

I have vertical bars on 4:3 material but for me that is only 2% of viewing.

However, I installed a Makita IR electric drapery rod and will soon have Black curtains that will be able to mask in a 4:3 image. It was a cheap alternative compared to the additional 4 way electrimask cost and adds an esthetic touch to the room in addition to function.

All things being equal, get both an anamorphic lens and horizontal Elctrimask. If one or the other, you will get more benefit from your DILA (and every other PJ you install down the road) with an investment in an Electrimask.

My room is a cave (no windows either) and the Electrimask works wonders. However, Phat's solution is a good one in a similarly non-cave like room!

BTW - Phat, anyway to program my HD LEEZA to get my G-150 to output 1:1 1365 X 1024 full panel? You solved this with the HTPC guys! Can I get the HD LEEZA to do this via your method? Thanks!!!

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1094 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 12:23 PM
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OT... Not absolutely sure I solved it with finnesse... It seems to work for some people... Longer cable runs are a problem... If you and Tom want to get together with me I am happy to go over the timings I used and try anything out... If the bandwidth fails due to cables with what you have invested I would think an optical DVI (ohh how I want a 20m one of these) would be 100%...

Drop me a line... Perhaps with Tom...
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post #1095 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 02:30 PM
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Thanx for the input guys. I do watch a fair amount of concert DVD's like the new Zeppelin (incredible BTW), THe Who, Hendrix, James Taylor etc. most of that stuff is 4x3 and kind of dark. I would say HD and concerts are the 2 most important things to me. I am deciding on colors for the room now and certianly will go with something dark. Probably Ralph Lauren Suede on the walls, Dark Blue Carpet and, maybe a darker shade of Suede on the ceiling. It sounds like the screen wall might really benefit from being black.

Jeff

are you going with motorized drapes? If so, I am looking into window treatments for my new home and was qouted an insane price of $1,150 just for the motorized track. Does AVS sell motorized tracks and drapes?

Warren
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post #1096 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 05:11 PM
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Warren,

I am not sure if AVS sells the Makita drape system. I acquired mine through my theater designer.

Look at my link below for screen wall ideas.

Consider Guilford of Maine textured patterns. Esthetically pleasing and acoustically transparent.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1097 of 1105 Old 07-06-2003, 10:58 PM
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Warren,
You've waited this long, wait for lasers ;)

TM

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post #1098 of 1105 Old 07-07-2003, 03:40 PM
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Anthony,

When is the laser projector shootout? I can't make any decisions until I drink more beer and eat more pizza at your place :)

Warren
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post #1099 of 1105 Old 07-07-2003, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by thebland
However, if maintaining a budget, I would say...inexpensive, calibrated LCOS now...
I didn't think there was such a thing?! Or are we talking relative terms?
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post #1100 of 1105 Old 07-08-2003, 07:24 AM
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Warren,
You've waited this long, wait for lasers
you mean wait until September?

:D

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #1101 of 1105 Old 07-08-2003, 08:38 AM
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Yeah! The shootout will be just like the good old days at the planetarium...Pink Floyd, lasers, and a fattie....ahhhhh.

TM

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post #1102 of 1105 Old 07-08-2003, 08:48 AM
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I new I had seen you somewhere before

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post #1103 of 1105 Old 07-08-2003, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by anthonymoody
Yeah! The shootout will be just like the good old days at the planetarium...Pink Floyd, lasers, and a fattie....ahhhhh.

TM
fattie?
You mean anna nicole smith?

Next projector will have LEDs, >=1080 res, >=10 bit color, >14bit CR, >9 bit ANSI CR, >=120Hz, >16ft.L on 12ft 2.35:1 screen, <$12bit price

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post #1104 of 1105 Old 07-08-2003, 02:46 PM
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jlanzy

Your G70 is listed at 20,000:1 CR
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post #1105 of 1105 Old 07-08-2003, 09:30 PM
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CR 20,000:1!!!! It almost seems impossible to imagine how washed out dark scenes must seem on a CR of 2000:1. I would like to know how many CRT to digital converts miss the dark scene details. I watch a lot of sci-fi, action, horror which has quite a bit of dark scenes in them, I guess if you watch other types of movies maybe it's not an issue.
joe
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