RGBHV over shielded Cat 5 success! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 524 Old 01-18-2006, 10:59 AM
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I read the first 5-pages of this thread, then skipped to the end, please forgive me. One question:

Has anyone tried this with a Leviton face plate in the middle? I'm assuming this would work, because Wigggle originally use the in-Line Splitter, but just wanted to verify.
Edit: I started looking at the leviton quick port inserts, and see a cat 5, cat5e, and cat6 port. I'm assuming that I would want the cat5e version? This won't effect the impedance will it? Or should I just feed the cable through an empty hole in the face plate, and then solder on the HD-15 connector?
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post #452 of 524 Old 01-19-2006, 08:05 AM
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Another newbie question. In the first post, Wigggles says what wire gets soldered to what pin. However, I have never done this before, what pin is number 1, and what pin is number 15?
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post #453 of 524 Old 01-19-2006, 10:49 AM
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Often, the pins will be numbered adjacent to the pin positions, on one side of the connector. Usually it is in very small raised numbers that are only on one side of the connector.

Describing the positions, and even providing a schematic, can be rather tricky, since you can look at different sides of the connector and get confused by the mirror image, etc.

Your best bet is the numbering present on the connector, if it is there.

Best Regards,
Doug
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post #454 of 524 Old 01-19-2006, 08:30 PM
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I would really appreciate help on this. I want to use my BigScreen as a Monitor.

So I work at Radioshack...I was surfing the interent and found this web page. Since I am a new subscriber I can not put links in my replys. If you google search How to make a VGA to Component cable and click on the first link that goes to "myhometheater" it will explain what I did.

I built a VGA to Component cable using regular Cat V cable. Hooked it up to my Nividia GeForce FX 5200 video card and the other end to my Hitachi Big Screen Component Input. I got nothing except for a Blury Screen. Is there any sugestions? Am I doing something wrong? I wired it just for the Pictures show on that link.
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post #455 of 524 Old 01-19-2006, 08:51 PM
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You probably need Powerstrip to correct the timing you are sending to your bigscreen.
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post #456 of 524 Old 01-21-2006, 08:12 PM
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I found Powerstip's web site. How would I use it to modify the output to be displayed on to my Big screen?
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post #457 of 524 Old 01-22-2006, 10:21 AM
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Go into the Powerstrip forum or here at avs and see if anyone has specific timings for your tv. The Powerstrip website should give you the info you need to use the program.
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post #458 of 524 Old 01-24-2006, 09:23 PM
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I just finished my cable, and amazingly it works! It is a bit blurry however. I did go longer than what was recommend (40-50 ft). Would this cause the blurryness?

As I was typing this, I was measuring how long my cable was the the picture got really bad shadows (the buttons have a shadow about 1/2 the width of them to the right). Would just moving the cable around while measuring cause this?

Anyway, the cable I have is is about 65' long. I knew it would be long when I made it, but I figured it was easier to shorten it if I had to. I just measured, and I can remove about 9 1/2 feet, and the cable will still be long enough. Would shortening the cable to 55' make a difference, or would it still be too long?

I do have a 25' VGA cable that I could use for part of the distance...would 25' VGA, a female-female adapter, and then 30' of Cat5e STP, cable work better?

Any other ideas?
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post #459 of 524 Old 01-25-2006, 07:53 AM
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In regard to the X-Box question....

Sure, take a look at the V3AD (http://www.avovercat5.com/products/v3ad.htm). It is less expensive than the HDMI and it has the component HD performance.

There are diagrams that should give your the basic idea for the setup.
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post #460 of 524 Old 01-29-2006, 09:53 AM
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Do you think that I would be ok, if I used a 25' VGA cable and 30' cat5e STP? Or do you think that that would be too long?
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post #461 of 524 Old 03-17-2006, 02:12 AM
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Hi MrWigggles

I just wanted to say thanks for the great idea.

I built a 12.5m (41ft) VGA cable using the instructions on the first page. I used cat5 STP and metal dsub hoods as suggested. I also terminated the STP shield wire to pin 10 on both ends.

I have tested the cable on two projectors and a 42" LCD TV, I used a PC (1280x1024x60Hertz), DVD player and XBOX to drive the image and the quality was exceptional. There is no noticeable ghosting, ringing or banding what-so-ever. I blind tested this cable for a couple of video-phile friends and they immediately demanded that I build replicas for them.

The total cost of building the cable (15m STP patch cable, 2 dsub connectors, 2 shielded metal dsub hoods, 10mm heatshrink wrap) was less that £10! (that's about $17.55 for you foreigners )

A few tips for other Brit's planning to build these:

1. Buy STP patch cables, it's actually cheaper than buying a reel of STP! I got 15m cables from expansys for £2 + shipping.

2. Twist and tin the wires before soldering.

3. Use a pair helping hands to hold the dsub connectors while soldering.

4. Buy metallised hoods, the ones from Maplin are of a very high quality.

5. Use 10mm shrink-wrap to strengthen the last 2-3 inches of cable as it enters the hoods, this really makes a difference.

6. Use a continuity tester to check each pin before using the cable. The metal hoods should act as a shied so check that too.
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post #462 of 524 Old 04-12-2006, 03:14 PM
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I read this thread completely a month or so back...I don't have time to go over it again and just have a quick question. Will this cable wired as spec'd support 1280x768 and 1920x1200? Cable is about 30' in length...
Thanks,
Brendin
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post #463 of 524 Old 04-13-2006, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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xnaron,

1280X768 over that distance should work fine, but the 1920x1200 might be pushing it. You will get something, but I can't guarantee the resulting quality.

-Mr. Wigggles

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post #464 of 524 Old 04-13-2006, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWigggles View Post

xnaron,

1280X768 over that distance should work fine, but the 1920x1200 might be pushing it. You will get something, but I can't guarantee the resulting quality.

-Mr. Wigggles


What if I used 5 RG6 cables and connected one of these onto either end http://www.cablesnmor.com/vga-to-5-bnc-cable.html. I have a compression tool and bnc ends. Would this be a better solution? I am running a 42" lcd that has component, hdmi, and pc input. I want to be sure I have the right cables in the wall. I want to be able to support PC output at up to 1920x1200. I've got everything else covered (I think .

Thanks,
Brendin
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post #465 of 524 Old 04-18-2006, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWigggles View Post

Also, please bear in mind this Cat 5 technique is generally meant for cables that use HD-15 connectors on one or both ends. If you have a component output and a component input, I would recommend miniature bundled coax over what I have described here in a heart beat. Belden makes some good cable as well as others.

Wow, what a thread. Still going strong after several years. A surprisingly low number of total posts for a thread that has been in existence this long. I managed to skim through the thread, and the above note (post #188) caught my eye.

Is there are reason that one would be better off using a component cable rather than the STP techniques described herein? I know there are some people in this thread who have used the technique for the 3 compenent video signals, apprently with success.

My main reasons for wanting to try this are: (a) I'm a cheap bastard and (2) I want something relatively thin and flexible. My intended application is a ~30' run of component video from my receiver to my projector. How thick is the mini bundled coax mentioned above in coparison to standard STP? Where can I see it and/or buy it? Most of the compenent cables I have seen are rather thick and unwieldy. If there is a slim solution/alternative available, I would be interested. Especially if it is a cheap solution.
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post #466 of 524 Old 04-18-2006, 04:38 PM
 
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Quote:


Is there are reason that one would be better off using a component cable rather than the STP techniques described herein?

Unbalanced video circuits are designed to use coax, with a 75 Ohm characteristic impedance.
The capacitance between the center conductor and sheild (ground) is maintained.

STP consists of twisted pairs, with a characteristic impedance of about 110 Ohms, the parallel capacitance between these two conductors and the sheild will vary along the length of the cable, and will change with the geometry (sharp bends etc).
There is an impedance mismatch, when used in a 75 Ohm video circuit as well.

If you can't see any defects in the resulting video signal, then, by all means, use it.
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post #467 of 524 Old 04-18-2006, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targus View Post

Unbalanced video circuits are designed to use coax, with a 75 Ohm characteristic impedance.
The capacitance between the center conductor and sheild (ground) is maintained.

STP consists of twisted pairs, with a characteristic impedance of about 110 Ohms, the parallel capacitance between these two conductors and the sheild will vary along the length of the cable, and will change with the geometry (sharp bends etc).
There is an impedance mismatch, when used in a 75 Ohm video circuit as well.

If you can't see any defects in the resulting video signal, then, by all means, use it.

Sorry, I should have made my question a little clearer. In post #188 by Mr. Wiggles, it is implied that Cat 5 with cables that use HD-15 connectors is desirable, but that Cat 5 is not desirable when used for component video. So, my question really should have been: "Is there a reason STP is a good idea for HD-15 (VGA) connectors, but not for component video (RCA) connectors?"

My (limited) understanding is that both VGA and component video are spec'd at 75 Ohm impedance, and that the technique described using STP and grounding the shield results in an impedance that approaches 75 Ohm. There may or may not be a slight degradation in the signal, but my understanding is that for certain situations, the diminished video may be worth it for the gains in the flexibility of and ease of installing/fishing Cat 5 cable, and the reduced cost. Doesn't this still hold true, at least to some extent, for component video?

I guess what I really want to know is what is different between the HD-15 connector/VGA and the RCA connector/component video that makes Cat 5 desirable for the former, but not the latter. Or did I just misinterpret Mr. Wiggle's comment?

My secondary question is where I can see (and ultimately buy) thin/flexible coaxial component video cables approximately 30' in length to see if they would be appropriate for my application. Thanks for any help!
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post #468 of 524 Old 04-19-2006, 07:16 AM
 
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Quote:
"Is there a reason STP is a good idea for HD-15 (VGA) connectors, but not for component video (RCA) connectors?"

No, COmponent video and VGA are very similar, the type of connector doesn';t really matter, neither RCA connectors or HD15 connectors are speced at 75 Ohms. They are used for convienence, not quality.

Quote:
the technique described using STP and grounding the shield results in an impedance that approaches 75 Ohm

It doesn't though, cat5 is designed to be 110Ohms, between conductors, Grounding the sheild doesn't make it 75 Ohms, and could introduce other problems.


Quote:
I guess what I really want to know is what is different between the HD-15 connector/VGA and the RCA connector/component video that makes Cat 5 desirable for the former,

Nothing makes cat5 desireable for use in a 75 Ohm unbalanced video circuit....which is what VGA and component are. The only thing I can think of is it's cost, although 3 runs of RG59 isn't that expensive.

Cat5 was designed to be used with differential transmitters and receivers, which can make use of the twisted pairs. Unbalanced video drivers don't.
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post #469 of 524 Old 04-19-2006, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targus View Post

No, COmponent video and VGA are very similar, the type of connector doesn';t really matter, neither RCA connectors or HD15 connectors are speced at 75 Ohms. They are used for convienence, not quality.



It doesn't though, cat5 is designed to be 110Ohms, between conductors, Grounding the sheild doesn't make it 75 Ohms, and could introduce other problems.

Are you an EE, math major or physicist?
Do you reach that conclusion by transmission line calculation of the complex geometery of the conductors as we are describing? Do you not think that the addition of the shield as a signal ground will not effect the transmission characteristics of the cable?
Better yet do you have network analyzer to test your statement?

In post #254, Thumper stated the following:

Quote:
OK, alright already

Next week I'll post the new AMP connector assembly part # and photos we've developed. All you'll need to terminate a shielded CAT5E cable to the connector is a knife to strip off the outer jacket, your fingers to push it together and a pair of cutters to trim the excess. Thats it! Perfect HD-15 connections...its even color coded. The performance is very good; better at 40' than our reference RGBHV/5-core quad-shielded cable (won't mention the brand but it costs over $400). At 40' 1600x1200@75 is darn near perfect...its extremely difficult to see the difference from a standard 6' VGA cable even from a few inches from the screen.

I won't get into any arguements here with EEs on cable/hardware impedance/mismatches. Suffice it to say the charactaristic 100 ohm twisted pair impedance of short haul CAT5 when unbalanced at the connectors [properly] yields an impedance approximately between 71 and 74 ohms which is well within the tolerance limits of 75 ohm source/load hardware.

BTW, I don't recommend using RJ45 [shielded] connectors in the loop. For best performance the link should have as few transitions as possible. I prefer the Cat5/VGA connector being inserted directly into the projector input and at the source with a simple gender changer (point-to-point). The cable exits the Cat5/VGA connector at a right angle which means you only need a little over 1" total clearance (including changer) from the PJ to something like a hush box wall.

More to come...

Thumper

Those are the measurements that AMP made with a network analyzer and partially why they created the product in the first place.

Quote:
Nothing makes cat5 desireable for use in a 75 Ohm unbalanced video circuit....which is what VGA and component are. The only thing I can think of is it's cost, although 3 runs of RG59 isn't that expensive.

Cat5 was designed to be used with differential transmitters and receivers, which can make use of the twisted pairs. Unbalanced video drivers don't.

Transmission impedance is transmission impedance. You can use 300 Ohm strip-line antenna cable (remember those?) or 75 ohm coax to carry a RF signal. The 300 ohm is not shielded so it is not perferred. The outer shield STP changes a lot of that. Also 5 RG59 caox lines is overkill for the 30 foot sections we are talking about here and it is thicker.

The strengths of using STP for unbalanced video are similar today as they were 5 years ago when this thread started. The main difference is now DVI and HDMI are typically the ways to go and via companies like monoprice.com we finally have inexpensive versions of them. For soldering your own HD15 connectors, the STP method described herein is pretty darn good.

-Mr. Wigggles

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post #470 of 524 Old 04-19-2006, 07:42 PM
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I think we need to put this in context. Targus is taking the same position as I did very early in this thread. This is not an accepted practice in professional circles and I agree 100%. However I do understand Mr. Wiggles points that the charasteristic impedance could approach 75 ohms and for home or non critical commercial applications this may be just fine.

Look, if it works for your eyes there is no harm in doing this and it is a lot cheaper than coax. Persoanlly I would never so it in my work for program grade signals. But for some crappy VGA menu that needs to go a hundred feet I just might try it some day. Can't be any worse than the off the shelf KVM extenders that convert the 75ohm unbalanced to balanced 110ohm - or do they really do that? Hmmm... with some of these boxes I have used, I suspect they don't. Just shove the video over plain CAT5 pairs.

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post #471 of 524 Old 04-19-2006, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I think we need to put this in context. Targus is taking the same position as I did very early in this thread. This is not an accepted practice in professional circles and I agree 100%. However I do understand Mr. Wiggles points that the charasteristic impedance could approach 75 ohms and for home or non critical commercial applications this may be just fine.

I certainly wouldn't do it commercially in an HD broadcast truck or studio. Not so much for quality but you don't want someone saying at the end of the day, "Can you believe that guy used CAT5 for the HD signals?" The fact we are talking about HD15's should shed a little bit of light on the target market. (However, I wouldn't call a RCA connector a professional connector either since it is no where near 75 ohms (by its geometry alone), yet it seems to work pretty darn well for our <50MHz signals.)

As far commercial applications, it is worth noting that Thumper was (and probably still is) a commercial installer and he used this technique in many offices, schools, churches etc with identical results to bundled coax. In some cases the applications were plenum and the cost of bundled plenun coax is not cheap.

I've said it many time, if you are making RCA to RCA cables then don't mess with this stuff, but if you are doing HD15 to HD15 then some applications it can be rewarding.

-Mr. Wigggles

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post #472 of 524 Old 04-20-2006, 07:14 AM
 
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Quote:


Are you an EE, math major or physicist?

EE, what are you?
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post #473 of 524 Old 04-20-2006, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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My occupation, as stated in my public profile, is Electrical Engineer.

-Mr. Wigggles

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post #474 of 524 Old 04-20-2006, 12:03 PM
 
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That's interesting.
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post #475 of 524 Old 05-09-2006, 01:31 PM
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I think MrWiggles is pretty much correct, and besides this is all empirical. If STP does the job, then use it. I'm a EE as well, and many years ago did multichip packaging for a company in SJ. We had a TDR to measure Tline impedances on silicon substrates. Since I was an AV guy and for grins, I tested things like speaker wire (14 gauge zip cord) which was 100-110ohms. I didn't test cat5. I would not doubt for a minute that the ground shield would reduce the impedance of STP to 75-80 ohms. Maybe someone out there at Tek or Agilent could verify this. A network analyzer is Ok to use but freq domain measurements are difficult to interpret since we work in the time domain, i.e. skew, ghosting (reflections due to Z mismatch), slew rates, etc. This is all about tline behavior and signal propogation. Discussion of RCA vs HD15 vs BNC is pointless since the prop speed thru a 1/2 inch long jack is about 100ps. And we're using 50 ft runs which will be close to 80-100ns! I'd love to test STP with and w/o the shield but our company doesn't have a TDR.
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post #476 of 524 Old 05-22-2006, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWigggles View Post

if you are making RCA to RCA cables then don't mess with this stuff

Does that apply to (signal-level) audio as well? (I'm not loooking for audiophile-grade performance - just "TV audio".) If there are issues with running audio signals over CAT5, what are they? Impedance mismatches? Crosstalk? Degraded/diminished signal?

Also, what about s-video over STP?
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post #477 of 524 Old 05-22-2006, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Donny,

You can still do RCA to RCA cables using Cat 5 shielded (or heck unshielded for simple audio) it is just that the advatanges in terms of simplicity aren't as great as when HD15s are on both ends.

-Mr. Wigggles

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post #478 of 524 Old 05-22-2006, 12:08 PM
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Good to hear. Thanks! What about s-video? (I'm thinking about s-video + stereo audio over STP.)
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post #479 of 524 Old 05-30-2006, 11:12 AM
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S-video + stereo audio: http://www.avovercat5.com/products/avosva2.htm

Plus, an update:
A new HDTV over Cat 5 product is now available: http://www.avovercat5.com/products/avov3ad.htm

Next week at InfoComm in Orlando we are releasing decora wall plate versions of the baluns.
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post #480 of 524 Old 06-12-2006, 01:35 PM
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Tell me, please:

Is it possible to make DVI-I single link cable with 3 STPs?
If not, what kind of cable use best for this?
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