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Ti single chip dlp 4k projectors

9K views 140 replies 25 participants last post by  Elix 
#1 ·
Hi:


Does anyone know when any manufacturer will be releasing a 4K projector using TI's new 4K chip?


Optoma showed the projector in the link below at CES 2016.





TI also had a booth and had a "demo" unit using their new chip set.





To check most of the boxes for me a 4K projector would:


4K SINGLE CHIP DLP with a LED light source.


Could also do HDR10 and Dolby Vision.


Hopefully cost no more the $ 7,500.00


Presently using a Marantz 15S-1 DLP and still love the picture.


Hopefully there will be a few choices in the near future with projectors using the new chipset from Texas Instruments.
 
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#3 ·
I think Scott Wikinson was talking about the problems with dlp and 4k on his last podcast of Home Theater Geeks, I don't think that single chip dlp can keep up, I can't remember if it was hdr or expanded color that was the problem.
How does he know that if there are no projectors on the market right now using this new 4K chipset?


My Marantz single chip DLP 1080P sure can keep up!
 
#6 ·
The big problem is contrast IMO. I've got a Planar 8150, which is darn near the pinnacle of what's possible from DLP (about 15,000:1 dynamic), and a JVC RS4910. The JVC's native contrast is about double the Planar's dynamic contrast, and with the JVC's DI it's really no contest in dark scenes.

DLP would have to do something pretty massive with their contrast performance to be relevant again, IMO.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I got about the same dynamic contrast with my Sim Lumis Host. Threw a nice picture, but the black levels on my RS600 just take so many scenes to a whole new level. I've finally gone to the " dark side ". Hard to give up really good contrast levels at this point. but, we will see what they've come up with - should be interesting no matter what !
 
#11 ·
Proof will be in the pudding...a number of 4K DLP iterations from TI partners will be shown at CEDIA....some, no doubt, with entry-level optics and prices; others with more costly executions. All the theoretical speculations that have been bandied about in this forum will then (hopefully) be put to rest.
 
#14 ·
Does anyone know why Sony, JVC, and Epson don't currently use Texas Instrument DLP chips?
Because they have their own chips, why would they use someone else's?

The fact that worries me is that BenQ and other cheap DLP makers might enter 4k into the sub $5,000 which will most likely damage 3LCD and LCoS sales.
How so? And even if it does, so what? If BenQ can outsell Epson, what's the problem, it just means they've build a machine that people like better, which will drive Epson and the lot to improve their products. Competition is good.

A far worse outcome, IMO, is if these "4K" DLP machines come out at $5-10k and have overall performance (brightness, contrast, etc) similar to their $1-2k 1080p counterparts. That would be a disaster, we need some more competition in the projector market, and ideally not just everyone sticking to their one trick pony feature. JVC's got their black level, Sony's got their native 4K panels, Epson's got the just above budget segment, and there's a slew of DLPs for cheap.

We really need a high contrast (native and ANSI) projector with a good lens (sharpness/pop) and low input lag to motivate JVC to fix that issue. And we need something to motivate Sony to put good lenses on their machines and not price-gouge the US. And we need someone to force Epson to up their game a bit with LCD-R and Laser.

Maybe, 4K DLP can do that, it would make my day if it does, because my Planar 8150 is still my favorite projector, even if it's not the PQ king anymore (somewhat weak black level). But that would take a sort of revolutionary improvement, and like with the LCD Epsons, I just don't see any evidence to actually give me that hope.
 
#21 ·
Oh, I wouldn't be worried about the cost, it's a 0.65" DMD, and there are lots of cheap projectors with 0.65" DMDs already. My "worry" is that cheap DLPs just never perform that well and I don't expect a new DMD to change that. Further I don't really have any hope that there will be some contrast breakthrough (there's been no mention) that would allow projectors based on these DMDs to compete at the higher end.

TI didn't happen to talk about sequential ("native", not ANSI) contrast at all did they?
 
#31 · (Edited)
TI needs to put out a .95" 4k consumer DMD to bring on the quality black levels. The .95" 1080p Vivitek H9090 recently released, for instance, can do a measured 15000:1 contrast (per Secrets) with LED dimming (8x) enabled and still have accurate color; not as good as the most contrasty LCOS, but still a great result.

I am pretty sure these 0.67" 4k DMDs will be sharper than the LCOS 4k projectors, but I am also pretty sure the black levels will be similar to 0.67" 1080p DLPs (not great).

Right now, though, the larger 4k DMDs are reserved for commercial use unfortunately.
 
#34 ·
TI needs to put out a .95" 4k consumer DMD to bring on the quality black levels. The .95" 1080p Vivitek H9090 recently released, for instance, can do a measured 15000:1 contrast (per Secrets) with LED dimming (8x) enabled and still have accurate color; not as good as the most contrasty LCOS, but still a great result.
That's impressive, 8 years, and absolutely no improvement. That's exactly what my Planar 8150 does and it's 8 years old.

I'm sorry but resolution is not going to entice me to buy a new projector. No way am I going to spend way over $5k (as a 4k, big DMD projector surely would be) on a projector that doesn't significantly improve on the contrast of my trusty Planar, it doesn't matter how much sharper it is.

I guess TI is more worried about ANSI than black floor or on/off contrast. That is all I really meant.
That's only because that's the only area they still have any significant advantage.

After all the market for bat cave home theater that can get benefit from that type of contrast is very small.
I suggest you read the Secrets article linked a few posts ago. The ANSI contrast test pattern is merely one example of intrascene contrast, and at 50% average luminance it's a pretty poor surrogate for real world content which tends to be below 10%:
http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-brightness-adl-contrast-measurements/

That said I wish TI would work on contrast more but they tend to only invest in areas the feel they will get a large return.
I fear the reality is that they've just hit the limit of what the technology can do.
 
#38 ·
A 4k .95" DMD is not going to give the same contrast as 1080 .95" chip. The reason the .95" chip does better than the .65" chip is it has bigger mirrors. Bigger mirrors reflect more light for better contrast. To do 4Kwith the same contrast a.65"chip needs to be 1.3" and a .95" needs to be 1.8". The commercial chips are 1.4". It is no problem making bigger chips, the cost of larger lenses is what makes doing 4K cost prohibitive.

DLP has some great attributes especially in motion and good ANSI contrast but it lacks in on/off contrast compared to other technologies. DLP needs to improve the technology for better contrast to be competitive again, maybe it can tilt the mirrors further or something else. BTW, 4K in other technologies is not easy either and has similar problems when going from 2 million pixels to 8 million pixels and making it fit in less than a square inch without giving up other properties. That is why e-shift type technologies are being used.
 
#39 ·
DLP needs to improve the technology for better contrast to be competitive again, maybe it can tilt the mirrors further or something else.
Tilt the mirror more + this something else.

"It's resulted in a coating so black that our spectrometers can't measure it!" the team explains. "Even running a high power laser pointer across it barely reflects anything back to the viewer. We have never before made a material so 'black' that it can't be picked up on our spectrometers in the infrared."
 
#48 ·
I'm not sure I would value award wins a lot, especially if they originate at shows where the manufacturers can cherry pick the demo content.

If the more experienced forum posters here (who've personally compared different projectors) agree on something, that is a hundred times more meaningful to me than any awards. And from what I'm reading here lately, many DLP users seem to have replaced their machines with the latest JVC or Sony units. That says a lot to me, especially as a fan of dark horror/scifi movies.

I hope at some point some manufacturer will do a dual chip/panel design (e.g. 1 DLP chip + 1 local dimming LCD panel).
 
#56 ·
Did you even bother reading the article you linked to? And I quote:

In the world of home theater, expensive and high-end are always relative concepts. To many movie lovers, the prices of the components in Theo's relatively modest home theater are still in the high-end category—just take a look at Theo's partners in building the Roxy 2.0: Kaleidescape, Digital Projection, Stewart Filmscreen, California Audio Technologies, SH Acoustics, Crestron, and Prima Cinema. That is a very different price bracket compared to a system based on a premium AVR and an Epson projector. Even so, a significant element of Theo's approach to the Roxy 2.0 was keeping the cost of the room itself down, while still providing an optimum environment for home theater.
 
#58 ·
I want to point out that I due respect a good DLP image and if this were 2009 I would wholeheartedly argue for someone to pick up a DLP projector. They really were top of the line in terms of overall image quality in my opinion. Circa 2009 one could own projectors like the Planar PD8150, Sim2 Lumis, Runco Q750i, Runco LS-10i and a few other great ones. But since then JVC got their **** together and has made several large strides in overall image quality while making massive gains in contrast. Sony has released a few great 4K units with them being native 4K as one of the lesser reasons into buying one. The Sony 1100ES offers high on/off contrast, high ANSI contrast, an amazing lens, high brightness, an excellent dynamic iris and great motion performance. It being 4K was one of the last reasons why people were tempted into owning it. With the 4K DPI LED unit, there isn't really anything unique about it in terms of PQ that sets itself apart. It really just has things you can tell people that are cool about it. It's 4K native; "yay!" It's LED; "yay!", It's $150000; "yay!" It's not particularly bright, has pretty bad contrast (even for a DLP projector) and can't make use of the new UHD BD format. I just can't see the appeal of it, even when it was released a few years ago.
 
#59 · (Edited)
How is the enormous color gamut that this projector is capable of going to matter when it's playing blu-ray movies? And in what cases is the 4k through display port going to be used realistically? That HT was made to immerse oneself in movies, which again is limited to blu-ray or Kaleidoscope blu-ray quality streaming.

Sorry, but I can't see how it even remotely makes sense to invest that kind of money in a projector that is this limited?
 
#62 ·
How is the enormous color gamut that this projector is capable of going to matter when it's playing blu-ray movies? And in what cases is the 4k through display port going to be used realistically? That HT was made to immerse oneself in movies, and that is limited to blu-ray or Kaleidoscope blu-ray quality streaming.

Sorry, but I can't see how it even remotely makes sense to invest that kind of money in a projector that is this limited?
You are getting two models mixed up - Theo K's model theater had a DPI Cine LED 1000 1080p DLP (at the time ~$15k)
 
#64 · (Edited)
I just think this is a poor argument in the context of the units you're talking about. The type of person who spends $150000 on a projector and a lot more on the entire theater build has a dealer/installer who will come by to recalibrate the projector at least once a year. I've spoken to many dealers and many have told me they have a schedule where they also replace bulbs based on typical usage of each owners' projector with these high cost theater builds. So they know customer A needs a new bulb on average every 6 months and customer B needs a new one once a year. They go out and do it for the customer. You might be able to make your argument with people shopping in the sub $20000 market, but not that uber expensive market DPI sells in. I also think that most people would prefer a better image over the convenience of swapping bulbs. How many people on the forum talk about owning LED base units? There's no dedicated thread for an LED based unit that is constantly posted in. That leads me to believe that there are very few owners in the context of how many bulb based units there are out there. LED projectors have been in the sub $10000 market for half a decade now and people aren't really buying them in large numbers because they lack the image quality that other bulb based units can offer.
 
#87 ·
I've had the CineLED 1000 here for calibration and stacked with the .95 DC4 Planar and the previous gen JVC's, Sony VW1100, etc.

The .95 DLP's have a great overall PQ but the low APL performance is too much to ignore in a velvet treated room. I keep the Planar for gaming since the lag is one of the lowest out there.


Is there any indication that these new panels will be noticeably better than what they've been able to do in the past regarding native contrast?
 
#88 · (Edited)
Based on the 2000:1 native contrast of the 1.38" native 4k DMD (same as 0.95" 1080p DMD), it appears that the 0.67" shifted 4k DMD will likely have the same contrast as the 0.67" 1080p DMDs.

In other words, no, appears 2000:1 native without any iris manipulation appears to be the limit of single chip DLP - even TI's biggest and most expensive 4k DMD.

In order to surpass this substantially stacked DLP appears necessary.


On the plus side, these 0.67 4k DMDs will likely be the sharpest 4k solution in the near term under 10k.
 
#90 ·
Delta for this projector. For an all around projector, that includes gaming needs, I do not think you will find anything that can compete with this projector at it's price point. The 1080P image with the LED light source looks very good, even viewed in my bat cave. In the darker scenes, it can't compete with the black level of my RS600, but it does have good shadow detail.
 
#91 ·
Agreed. I measured these Delta LED units at 22ms with my Leo Bodnar input lag tester. That's extremely impressive considering you don't have to give up any of the video processing features to get this like you do on some models. The PQ one gets rivals/beats that of the Sony HW 1080p series projectors and the last generation Epson 3LCD units. Though this unit has more sharpness (better lens by far), better ANSI contrast, and better motion performance which is needed for competitive FPS games. Give AVScience a call to snatch up one of these few remaining units.
 
#105 · (Edited)
Again I am willing to trade some PQ performance for led/laser convenience.

DLP vs LCOS is a whole separate argument. They look different and I prefer DLP's look, regardless of light source. And that is okay.

I can get a laser Epson LS9600e for not much more than the on sale LED DLP for instance, so it's not like LCOS is off bounds for those who want solid state light source in this price range. But I like DLP's subdued contrast look, fast response, tack sharp resolution - and I just like the theorycraft behind the tech better honestly. Maybe that will change in the future but right now that's how I feel.

Also 80% of the content I watch is low budget 70s and 80s movies. So things like projector noise level and convenience are very important, as most of the movies I watch are poor source material that doesn't benefit as much from cutting edge PQ. The other 20% is 3d movies as that seems to draw the biggest crowds from my friend pool.
 
#106 ·
Again I am willing to trade some PQ performance for led/laser convenience.

DLP vs LCOS is a whole separate argument. They look different and I prefer DLP's look, regardless of light source. And that is okay.

I can get a laser Epson LS9600e for not much more than the on sale LED DLP for instance, so it's not like LCOS is off bounds for those who want solid state light source in this price range. But I like DLP's subdued contrast look, fast response, tack sharp resolution - and I just like the theorycraft behind the tech better honestly. Maybe that will change in the future but right now that's how I feel.
Right, but you don't represent the "average" consumer. Talk to Mike over at AVScience and I'm sure he'll tell you that people are buying bulb based units by far over laser/LED units. The JVCs are outselling the Epson LS10000 by HUGE numbers. Same goes for the LED DLP units.
 
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