JVC 4k Native Laser projector (confirm) - Page 166 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4951 of 4997 Old 09-12-2017, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Craig,

Where did you buy the test disc? I can't seem to find it.
You can buy it here.
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post #4952 of 4997 Old 09-12-2017, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I'll look at it more tonight but it appears that if the 4500 is updated to the latest firmware (the one that was pulled) then the Arve tool no longer works. I was experimenting last night and any time I tried to load a curve the projector would shut down.
I'm not having this problem. I was playing with curves last week or so and I had loaded the latest firmware much earlier than that.
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
A couple of new 4K discs arrived !

I picked up another movie too. I can't believe it, but I now have ANOTHER version of this movie. This WILL BE my last

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post #4954 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Great to hear Mike. Really looking forward to hearing about settings he tested and outcomes achieved when you get a chance.
I have a calibration with lens in place and a calibration with lens not in place. Contrast without dynamic dimming is 22,000:1 this is with medium laser power and iris at -7. Picture has nice depth to it and good shadow detail. I also have a calibration for two different HDR modes, one with filter and one without. The calibration with filter uses high laser power and without filter uses medium laser power. I am going to compare these two and decide which one I like best.
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post #4955 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
Hey Mike, I'm really interested to learn about the results of Chad's visit. I am on his list to visit as well.

I'm extremely frustrated with the HDR performance I'm seeing. Most of the time the Bluray looks much better. Hard to tell how much of it is my settings vs UHD titles being all over the place in terms of mastering so Chad might be my last hope before I give up.
Are you doing HDR with or without filter in place?
What size and gain screen?
What power mode and manual iris setting?

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post #4956 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
I'm not having this problem. I was playing with curves last week or so and I had loaded the latest firmware much earlier than that.
Agree, false alarm. It was an issue with the laptop. Got it working fine last night. Going to be doing some experimentation starting tonight. Going to try and subjectively match the HDR performance I'm seeing with my OLED with low APL scenes. Not so much in terms of black level, but shadow detail and how it performs coming out of black.
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post #4957 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Tell me if this idea is crazy:

Skip buying the JVC 640 I was planning on and buy a Lumagen Radiance Pro to get the best image possible on my JVC 4910 and wait until JVC (.. or Sony) offers a more affordable ($10,000 or less) true 4k projector, without the fan noise of the Sonys. Does the Lumagen allow for HDR manipulation/ tone mapping since my 4910 will not accept HDR?

Second question, when I do move to a true 4k projector does the Lumagen help anything or do I sell it at that point?

The Lumagen would allow you to do HDR with the 4910. I guess the only consideration is your WCG support, but you could always download Manni's 2020NF color profile and see what that gets you. The Lumagen Pro gives you a multitude of options for video processing and calibration that would serve ANY display well. Ultimately how many of these features will end up important to you is purely a personal question, but it is an invaluable tool once you learn all the things it can do for a setup. Most of the issues I hear people complain about with JVC projectors are eliminated with the Pro.

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post #4958 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Agree, false alarm. It was an issue with the laptop. Got it working fine last night. Going to be doing some experimentation starting tonight. Going to try and subjectively match the HDR performance I'm seeing with my OLED with low APL scenes. Not so much in terms of black level, but shadow detail and how it performs coming out of black.

This is exactly how I calibrate when using my HV settings. I like the results when doing it this way. I think I'm a shadow detail hound I guess. Those scenes around camp fires in The Revenant just blow me away when I nail it!
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post #4959 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 09:16 AM
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A good one in The Revenant for near black shadow detail is in the beginning after the guys leave them with the boat. There is a shot of the camp fire sparks going up into the woods then Leo's son laying down. The scene with him laying down looks DRASTICALLY different on my OLED compared to the projector in terms of shadow detail and color. So this is a scene I will A/B a lot.


One thing I've been thinking about. I DO NOT want to A/B the OLED and projector in the same room. I've seen others do this. I think this is a bad idea as they are drastically different displays in terms of image size and brightness (and contrast). I like bouncing between two different rooms (despite the tedium of it) and evaluate them more from their subjective qualities. I find the differences aren't as dramatic this way (our eyes are AMAZING at optical comparisons, so side by side would be too dramatic) and I focus more on the subtle subjective differences in the image.

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post #4960 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
A good one in The Revenant for near black shadow detail is in the beginning after the guys leave them with the boat. There is a shot of the camp fire sparks going up into the woods then Leo's son laying down. The scene with him laying down looks DRASTICALLY different on my OLED compared to the projector in terms of shadow detail and color. So this is a scene I will A/B a lot..........

Yep, that is an exact scene I use for final tweaks when doing my HarperVision setups. I can tell you, it looks like how you're describing your OLED. My jaw literally drops when I finally hit that sweet spot in the settings!
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post #4961 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Are you doing HDR with or without filter in place?
What size and gain screen?
What power mode and manual iris setting?
- without filter
- 132x54 (11 feet wide 2.35:1)
- High power, -5 iris

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post #4962 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
A good one in The Revenant for near black shadow detail is in the beginning after the guys leave them with the boat. There is a shot of the camp fire sparks going up into the woods then Leo's son laying down. The scene with him laying down looks DRASTICALLY different on my OLED compared to the projector in terms of shadow detail and color. So this is a scene I will A/B a lot.


One thing I've been thinking about. I DO NOT want to A/B the OLED and projector in the same room. I've seen others do this. I think this is a bad idea as they are drastically different displays in terms of image size and brightness (and contrast). I like bouncing between two different rooms (despite the tedium of it) and evaluate them more from their subjective qualities. I find the differences aren't as dramatic this way (our eyes are AMAZING at optical comparisons, so side by side would be too dramatic) and I focus more on the subtle subjective differences in the image.

Good to hear you're doing this. Please share whatever you learn. While I haven't looked at the Revenant yet (it's still shrink-wrapped), I will probably do so. I have a bunch of scenes that I use, but I've been comparing with the Bluray and not my OLED (which I also might do today).

I'm wondering if part of the issue is that we're targeting 77 instead of 64 (on RM's black level test pattern).

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post #4963 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
- without filter
- 132x54 (11 feet wide 2.35:1)
- High power, -5 iris
Is your projector mounted near head height? If so, you should have plenty of brightness. A calibrator should be able to make HDR look really good on your screen, if you are getting the gain (2.0+) that I am thinking you are getting.

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post #4964 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Is your projector mounted near head height? If so, you should have plenty of brightness. A calibrator should be able to make HDR look really good on your screen, if you are getting the gain (2.0+) that I am thinking you are getting.
My screen is an ST130 so I get 30% gain.

The projector is mounted above my head - 6" or so from ceiling, right around the top of the screen about 18 feet from the screen.

I don't think it's a question of brightness (HDR highlights can be blinding and shut your iris down!) it's a question of the gamma being too dark. Black crush. Dim look.

Did Chad B make custom curves for you with the Arve tool?

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post #4965 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
Good to hear you're doing this. Please share whatever you learn. While I haven't looked at the Revenant yet (it's still shrink-wrapped), I will probably do so. I have a bunch of scenes that I use, but I've been comparing with the Bluray and not my OLED (which I also might do today).

I'm wondering if part of the issue is that we're targeting 77 instead of 64 (on RM's black level test pattern).
Could be. I know why Manni thought to do this though as some titles seem to be mastered at .005 instead of true black, which I think is caused by a misunderstanding of the specs. Yes, the mastering monitor's black level is .005 and not 0, but that doesn't mean that the actual black level shouldn't be 0. But I've also seen a lot of movies theatrically at Dolby Cinemas that have raised blacks, so it seems to be a trend. But how a display comes out of black is another matter altogether. I want to see how my OLED looks with the black level setting pattern to see how the other steps look after black to get an idea of how fast or slow it is coming out. I've been told by the guys at Spectracal that most of the better flat panels out there are doing adaptive tone mapping on a frame by frame basis (basically HDR10+ but without the metadata) and they are not just doing it for the upper end, but looking at the bottom as well. This may be a lot of the reason they look a lot different for shadow detail.

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post #4966 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
My screen is an ST130 so I get 30% gain.

The projector is mounted above my head - 6" or so from ceiling, right around the top of the screen about 18 feet from the screen.

I don't think it's a question of brightness (HDR highlights can be blinding and shut your iris down!) it's a question of the gamma being too dark. Black crush. Dim look.

Did Chad B make custom curves for you with the Arve tool?
When you said you had a high power screen, I took that to be an old DaLite High Power screen. That is why I said you would have plenty of brightness. Yes, Chad did custom gamma curves for me. One for HDR without P3 filter and one for HDR with P3 filter.

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post #4967 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 02:06 PM
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When you said you had a high power screen, I took that to be an old DaLite High Power screen. That is why I said you would have plenty of brightness. Yes, Chad did custom gamma curves for me. One for HDR without P3 filter and one for HDR with P3 filter.
I meant high laser.

Is the curve with the P3 filter bright enough?

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post #4968 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 03:06 PM
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I picked up another movie too. I can't believe it, but I now have ANOTHER version of this movie. This WILL BE my last

Same here - I can't imagine it can look any better. But speaking of Blade Runner on 4K, some scenes look absolutely amazing !













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post #4969 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 03:53 PM
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Blade Runner was interesting. Any time they had a shot of that main pyramid looking building it was jaw dropping on the 4500. So much small detail that I've never seen before.
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post #4970 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 03:56 PM
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Blade Runner was interesting. Any time they had a shot of that main pyramid looking building it was jaw dropping on the 4500. So much small detail that I've never seen before.
I agree - looked like a different movie during those scenes. Impressive considering the age of the film.

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post #4971 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 06:01 PM
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I have a calibration with lens in place and a calibration with lens not in place. Contrast without dynamic dimming is 22,000:1 this is with medium laser power and iris at -7. Picture has nice depth to it and good shadow detail. I also have a calibration for two different HDR modes, one with filter and one without. The calibration with filter uses high laser power and without filter uses medium laser power. I am going to compare these two and decide which one I like best.
Mike one other area I'm curious about. Did Chad do anything or comment about the gamma settings menu for various modes (SDR and HDR)? I was watch GOTG2 UHD last night and was testing +2 level vs +1 level in picture tone along with using Kris' full dark level setting (as usual). Picture looked pretty right with that slight picture tone level bump to +2.
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Blade Runner was interesting. Any time they had a shot of that main pyramid looking building it was jaw dropping on the 4500. So much small detail that I've never seen before.
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I agree - looked like a different movie during those scenes. Impressive considering the age of the film.
That would be because all the effects shots were shot exclusively in the 65mm Super Panavision 70 format.
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post #4973 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
I meant high laser.

Is the curve with the P3 filter bright enough?
It is below 30FL, but looks good on my screen. My screen is 9' wide, but 0.75 gain. I do gain extra brightness from my A-lens.

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post #4974 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 06:45 PM
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It is below 30FL, but looks good on my screen. My screen is 9' wide, but 0.75 gain. I do gain extra brightness from my A-lens.
Wow, 30FL, holy bright! I don't get anywhere near that.

So which look do you prefer - with the P3 or without?

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post #4975 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
Wow, 30FL, holy bright! I don't get anywhere near that.

So which look do you prefer - with the P3 or without?
With what I looked at last night, I had a hard time telling the difference. It could be the movie scenes that I looked at, so will compare some more, hopefully this weekend. Only have two soccer games this weekend and they are home games, so will not eat up the whole day.

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post #4976 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 09:59 PM
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Wow, 30FL, holy bright! I don't get anywhere near that.

So which look do you prefer - with the P3 or without?
I'm getting around 38FL for 4K, with the pre-set HDR. The color looks fine ( since it was calibrated that way ), and the extra brightness looks better in my opinion !
















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post #4977 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 11:08 PM
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Did a LOT of HDR testing and comparing to my OLED tonight. The Arve tool does a good job but I was not getting the right gamma in the low end no matter how much I tried. The scene with Leo's son laying next to the tree in The Revenant looked drastically different compared to watching on the OLED or looking at the Blu. But if I added +4 to the dynamic range adjustment on the Penny I could get it to look identical. A clear indicator that the Panny is manipulating both ends of the gamma. Everything looked fantastic after this and more in line with the OLED. I will look at more content tomorrow for any issues but need to hit the skid tonight.
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post #4978 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Did a LOT of HDR testing and comparing to my OLED tonight. The Arve tool does a good job but I was not getting the right gamma in the low end no matter how much I tried. The scene with Leo's son laying next to the tree in The Revenant looked drastically different compared to watching on the OLED or looking at the Blu. But if I added +4 to the dynamic range adjustment on the Penny I could get it to look identical. A clear indicator that the Panny is manipulating both ends of the gamma. Everything looked fantastic after this and more in line with the OLED. I will look at more content tomorrow for any issues but need to hit the skid tonight.
Did that raise the black floor and, or, lower the clipping point by a whole lot though?

I would be interesting to hear what combination you arrive at to still have a solid black floor and clipping point to 4k nits, and I will try it out.

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Shootout - JVC RS500 (X7000) & Sony 320ES | My Panasonic UB900 HDR and SDR Settings | My MadVR Settings
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post #4979 of 4997 Old 09-13-2017, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Did a LOT of HDR testing and comparing to my OLED tonight. The Arve tool does a good job but I was not getting the right gamma in the low end no matter how much I tried. The scene with Leo's son laying next to the tree in The Revenant looked drastically different compared to watching on the OLED or looking at the Blu. But if I added +4 to the dynamic range adjustment on the Penny I could get it to look identical. A clear indicator that the Panny is manipulating both ends of the gamma. Everything looked fantastic after this and more in line with the OLED. I will look at more content tomorrow for any issues but need to hit the skid tonight.

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post #4980 of 4997 Old 09-14-2017, 07:05 AM
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I spent 8 -10 hours with my projector yesterday. I learned a lot.

First, let me say I WAS very happy with the HDR for the most part by using the HDR gamma curve combined with high laser and +2 or +3 Dynamic Range adjustment in the Panny. It wasn't until Guardians of the Galaxy 2 that I thought something was very wrong. The opening scene, which takes place outdoors, was abnormally dim, whereas the Bluray was bright (and more natural looking).

This one scene led me down a rabbit hole.

I started playing with the Arve tool and was able to make the movie look pretty punchy, without over-blowing the high end. I was pretty happy and I had a GOTG2 party and enjoyed the film.

During the past week, I checked out Red and Red 2. Both of these movies (made with film, not digital) look great on regular Bluray but looked bad on my projector (using my custom gamma curve). Some colors were off, upper end was off and the film grain did not look natural. Then I got Van Helsing - a film I happen to know really well and it was, again, worse than the Bluray. Lots of black crush and other issues. Every so often I would go back to the HDR gamma and instantly dismissed it because it was much darker looking.

So... I got frustrated (as you can tell from an earlier post). Since I received Ray M's UHD test disc recently, I decided to see if the patterns could tell me anything - even though I'm not an expert and don't have color filters or any measurement tools. What I quickly took away from these was that any of my custom curves did not show any information in the color ramps - nothing was flashing where it should have been - whereas with the HDR gamma there was indeed information. So in trying to make the image brighter and come out of black quicker, I was squashing (clipping?) information.

I also learned that targeting .005 doesn't work well (at least for me). In fact, even if you do, if you ever use the Panny's Dynamic Range, it will elevate the blacks you purposely clipped. Resolving down to 68 seems important to not get crushed blacks.

I then tried watching Van Helsing again with a fresh perspective. The black crush and blinding highlights that bothered me in the first scene (which is black and white) before were not there. In fact the highlights were wonderful. I didn't expect to do much other than check out a few chapters but I ended up watching the entire movie. To some degree that's saying a lot because the movie itself is rather weak, but I was mesmerized by the HDR. I have no doubt that there could be some improvement in shadow detail in the darkest elements, but for the most part the amount of information, color saturation and highlights were stunning. I couldn't stop watching!

I then checked out Red and Red 2 and they looked MUCH better. The weird colors that I saw (e.g. unnatural yellow tint on the side of a brown brick building in daylight) were gone.

The big test was to put on GOGT2 again. Yes, the opening daylight scene was dim (I knew that would be the case) but I ignored that and continued. While I didn't watch the entire disc (I skipped around), I was blown away by color saturation. By trying to get the movie to be punchy bright I not only depleted color saturation but lost a lot of texture detail. I knew this could happen when I was trying to brighten up the image and thought I had found a good compromise, but there is no comparison.

I continued checking out disc after disc and was blown away.

So all this to say that I'm going to give up on the Arve tool for now. These are my settings for HDR:
- HDR gamma
- Dark Level +7
- Iris -5
- Dynamic Mode 2
- High laser
- Panasonic dmp-ub900 Dynamic Range +3

I am relying on the Panasonic in order to be happy with HDR and I recommend this player to anyone using this projector for that reason.

TECHNICAL ISSUE?
The only thing I want to mention - in case someone can shed some light on it - is that in viewing Ray M's test patterns, my red was only resolving up to 400 nits while all other colors went up to 1000+. I

Is this a weakness in the projector or a calibration issue - anyone know?

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Last edited by Ian_Currie; 09-14-2017 at 07:13 AM.
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