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LED projectors

12K views 186 replies 31 participants last post by  blee0120 
#1 ·
At what price point would a 1,000 lumen, 0.95", 1080P LED projector need to get to, for AVS members to be interested? We are looking at a buyout on some units.
 
#2 ·
With the new Epson 4040 being priced at $2700 and the JVC RS400 being priced a few hundred more at street price, one would think it has to be under $2500. However, with the history of these LED units, I doubt we will see them new for under $2500. The low CR and no 3D is too much for the majority in this forum to purchase for even $2000 IMO.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Is that 1,000 lumen calibrated lumens? (otherwise it would be a dim bulb ;))

I think with 4k and HDR on the horizon and 3D, they've missed the boat for anything over $3,000 (and possibly over $2,000). :(

Gaming lag? If acceptable it might be useful as a second projector for gaming.

My .002 cent worth.


blee0120: Where are you seeing the JVC RS400 being priced a few hundred more than $2700 street price?
 
#4 · (Edited)
Keep in mind these are 0.95" DLP projectors and yes they will have low lag. Yes on 1,000 calibrated lumens. I currently have been viewing one of these for a couple months and they throw a very good image. No LCD projector can compete with this image. These were 10K MSRP projectors.
 
#8 ·
I think the problem is that people view them as a downgrade, even though they are the best DLP can offer. I owned the lower lumen output equivalent and I would pay maybe $1500 for it at max because I have little use for it. 750-800 lumen calibrated, non 4k, and non 3D projector have to be in a dark environment or under 90in screen for acceptable brightness during regular viewing. Just hard for educated buyers to spend over $2500 on something like this today. 2 years ago it would be different.
 
#56 · (Edited)
I'm afraid that for home theater 1080p is where 720p was when 1080p dropped to $3,000.
The irony is that this will likely be sharper than all of the under-20k 4k projectors currently out on 99.9999% of content (1080p) due to no convergence errors and best motion resolution. And it probably won't be too far off on 4k since most of said 4k projectors aren't native 4k anyway.
 
#6 ·
FWIW the projector Mike will be selling for the group buy epitomizes what DLP can look like in it's best. Being a single .95" DLP DMD it's going to have a super sharp image without issues revolving around convergence. Lens quality is excellent. High ANSI contrast, high native on/off contrast for a DLP projector, excellent Gennum video processing, extremely low input lag for gaming, the best motion resolution, next to zero chance of seeing RBE to the LED sequential color, an excellent dynamic LED dimming solution, and the ability to display P3 color. There will be devices released where you can take advantage of the P3 color gamut this unit is capable of with UHD bluray content. So, you really miss out on some 4K detail and HDR with this unit. This unit could work well for some who don't care about HDR.
 
#7 ·
My personal thresholds (which may have no basis in reality) for this as the secondary (gaming, casual TV, kids) projector in my room assuming its not a long-throw 1.85+ only lens; at these prices I'd still have to think hard if it was worth the upgrade of my existing Mitsubishi DLP:

$2000-2500 -- if it also has a manual iris for limiting brightness & good 3-5x range dynamic iris (or equivalent led modulation maybe), lens memory for CIH, 80%+ vertical lens shift, and was as quiet as the JVCs on low lamp

$1200-1500 -- if no dynamic iris / led modulation but yes manual brightness, no lens memory, anamorphic stretch, 70%+ vertical lens shift, and still fairly quiet
 
#11 ·
Looks like this is not going to happen. Our cost is more than you guys are willing to pay for the projector. Shame, because for a 1080P unit, they are really that good.
 
#15 ·
It is a moot point. We are not going to get them, since it looks like people are not willing to pay what it would take to buy one. As to your questions:
Yes on different lens being available.
No on 3D
No on lens memory.
 
#16 ·
Yeah, it's a shame, problem is for me it would be to replace my Planar 8150, which would make it an almost entirely lateral move. I'd have been interested for the longevity and instant on/off. But that means it would have only been in the $1000 ballpark for me.

I'm guessing you were needing something like $5000 to make it work. It's too bad DLP is so far behind, that's almost the cost of an RS500 which would smoke these in brightness and contrast, and be a decent match in pretty much everything else (but lag).
 
#17 ·
Talking lower than that, but above the $3,000 price point some were talking here.

Added
Around 4K delivered.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Hopefully when the 4K chips are really rolling out, these become the $1000 units.

They just need to start putting two DMDs in series for under 3K. Even without lasers, 1000+ calibrated lumens is possible with lamps and the 68% efficiency per DMD.
 
#19 ·
They just need to start putting two DMDs in series for under 3K. Even without lasers, 1000+ calibrated lumens is possible with lamps and the 68% efficiency per DMD.
Even if that's the total of the inefficiencies, that's still only 46% efficient if you stack two. Considering how hard it seems to be to get over 1000 Lumens (calibrated) with just one DMD, adding something else that consumes almost half your remaining light seems like it would be a big problem.
 
#24 ·
Have had a few people contact me regarding this projector, so we are going to try to get just a few of them. Interested parties should contact us.
 
#27 ·
A lot of people seem to know which PJ this is, but I don't. Can someone give me a hint so that I can narrow my search?
 
#30 ·
Lag of 16ms. Does not get much better than that with a front projector. This would be a great all around projector for someone that games and/or a lot of TV watching.
 
#31 · (Edited)
If you think about it, in addition to its excellent cinema performance, this is actually the ultimate 1080p gaming projector:

1. Significantly below 20ms input lag
2. No motion blur due to DLP technology - LCD/LCOS will not give you the best gaming PQ due to pixel blur in motion.
3. No chance of burn-in whatsoever.
4. 0.95" DMD gives ridiculously better performance than cheap gaming PJs like the BenQ w1070
5. LED light source means you can game all day with no worry of bulb burning out

So if you are into games and can afford it, can't beat this one.
 
#34 ·
It's a really tough sell, it sounds like the price is going to be right in the ballpark of the RS400, and the RS400 would be significantly brighter, higher contrast, and probably overall better image quality for just about everything, plus it gets you in the door for 4K with at least support for accepting all 4K signals.

The big distinguishing feature, IMO, is the lag. Knowing what I know now (having a Planar 8150 which should be a good stand in for this LED, PQ wise) and an RS4910, if I didn't have either, it would be a tough choice between an LED DLP and an RS400. Ignoring gaming it would be an easy choice for the RS400, but throw gaming in (LAG) and this LED DLP might be a good compromise. It will surely throw a great image, my Planar still puts a smile on my face, it basically doesn't do anything wrong. Of course my JVC puts a smile on my face when ever things get really dark.

I guess what I'm saying is for anyone interested in gaming, you're really not going to be able to do better than an LED DLP, not for
 
#35 ·
With a little help from the friends of AVS, I think I've found this one. I get the impression that this is about as good as 1-chip DLP 1080p gets. It's notable for the LED light source, large DMD, and excellent lenses. I see the following negatories, vis-a-vis PJ's that will appear at Cedia in roughly the same cost range: 1) No lens memories 2) Blacks not as good as JVC, 3) No ability to display 4K sources, and 4) 1000 lumens. So--what to do? Mike, I think the time to decide about this PJ is after we see what Cedia brings, because at $4K I think that the JVC RS 400 is a better choice AT THIS TIME. And there will be even more choices in Sept. Could be why this is being made available now, because it will be untenable at $4K in 3 months.
 
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#36 ·
With a little help from the friends of AVS, I think I've found this one. I get the impression that this is about as good as 1-chip DLP 1080p gets. It's notable for the LED light source, large DMD, and excellent lenses. I see the following negatories, vis-a-vis PJ's that will appear at Cedia in roughly the same cost range: 1) No lens memories 2) Blacks not as good as JVC, 3) No ability to display 4K sources, and 4) 1000 lumens. So--what to do? Mike, I think the time to decide about this PJ is after we see what Cedia brings, because at $4K I think that the JVC RS 400 is a better choice AT THIS TIME.
I don't think CEDIA is going to change things that much. There will be some "4K" DLPs, but they're unlikely to be even a match in quality at similar price point. It's possible the BenQ X12000 could be in the same class as this, but it sounds like it will probably be closer to $10k.

IMO it really comes down to gaming. If I were buying today (I enjoy some gaming), with a
 
#37 · (Edited)
Gaming is certainly a huge draw here. I challenge anyone to find an overall better gaming projector under $20k, don't think it exists.

But remember, for the same reason DLP is good at gaming, it also excels at areas of cinema and sports without needing excessive processing. Fast action and pans generally look better on DLP due to the exceptional motion resolution. Given the lens and model details, fine detail is likely superior to JVC RS400 even with e-shift enabled 1080p sources (which defines 99.999% of content in the near future). While blacks are not as good as JVC, they still can be excellent and frankly sometimes LCOS can look oversaturated at times while DLP does not have this issue.

Most theaters use DLP, so it is arguable the DLP "look" is more theatrical. This is more of a projector for purists and gamers, I think - but that is not a bad thing.
 
#39 ·
@stanger89. You make very good points. Gaming is not a consideration for me. I do flight sims where lag is not an issue and i use the 4K 75" Sammy for that. PJ is for movies. I want to get a better PJ than the interim Sony I'm using now. I have to close off my bat cave with velvet curtains (toe of an L-shaped room) and it blocks the A/C. Toward the end of a 2-hr movie, the room is getting hot with my lamp-based interim Sony PJ. So, half the watts heat dissipation from an LED light engine is very attractive. On the other hand, my eyeballs are 10' from a 120" screen and the improvement of 4K (including e-shift) will be noticeable. Do I go for a really good 1080P with an LED light source, or an RS400 or an RS500 with a hotter lamp for a little more but with e-shift, HDR lite and CR. AND, how does that play with true 4K, Laser or LED and fully implemented metadata for HDR for $10K in 2 or 3 years? Add in that I get all my current release Blu rays from NetFlix and when will they add Ultra Blu Ray to the menu? I just wish that Mike had this offer a little later because we don't know what the callibrated lumens will be for the Epson LCD's, any changes for the Epson LS10000, or anything at all about the wobulated DMD's from Benq. I think we do have a pretty good idea that the JVC's will be much the same for another year and the only variable MAY be price pressure from Epson/Optoma.
 
#41 ·
@stanger89 . You make very good points. Gaming is not a consideration for me. I do flight sims where lag is not an issue and i use the 4K 75" Sammy for that. PJ is for movies. I want to get a better PJ than the interim Sony I'm using now. I have to close off my bat cave with velvet curtains (toe of an L-shaped room) and it blocks the A/C. Toward the end of a 2-hr movie, the room is getting hot with my lamp-based interim Sony PJ. So, half the watts heat dissipation from an LED light engine is very attractive. On the other hand, my eyeballs are 10' from a 120" screen and the improvement of 4K (including e-shift) will be noticeable. Do I go for a really good 1080P with an LED light source, or an RS400 or an RS500 with a hotter lamp for a little more but with e-shift, HDR lite and CR.
The lower power consumption of the LED machines is a myth. The DPI Cine 100 LED (for example) is spec'd at 330W, the JVC RS500 is spec'd at 380, and my Planar 8150 400. They're all in the same ballpark.

AND, how does that play with true 4K, Laser or LED and fully implemented metadata for HDR for $10K in 2 or 3 years?
There will always be something better in 2-3 years.

Add in that I get all my current release Blu rays from NetFlix and when will they add Ultra Blu Ray to the menu?
I'm not holding my breath.

I just wish that Mike had this offer a little later because we don't know what the callibrated lumens will be for the Epson LCD's,
We know, PJC got ~900-950 Lumens in Cinema and Digital Cinema modes.

...any changes for the Epson LS10000, or anything at all about the wobulated DMD's from Benq. I think we do have a pretty good idea that the JVC's will be much the same for another year and the only variable MAY be price pressure from Epson/Optoma.
I doubt it. The early price reports on the BenQ/Optoma had them in the $8000-10000+ range. IMO the new Epson LCDs look like just modest updates to their LCD line. I doubt they'll change the price of their LS10000, but there are some indications there will be an update to it for better input compatibility (basically HDMI 2.0a support).

But most importantly, we don't yet know when this LED deal will happen, it could be a month or two still, I don't know how long it takes them to negotiate and work out the details. We could be past CEDIA before anyone really needs to make a decision.
 
#42 ·
I think it's fair to say that the raw image quality of this projector will outperform the new pseudo 4K machines from Optoma and BenQ. They're using the smaller DMD. Contrast will be worse. I'd actually wager image processing and lens quality will be better as well. Also with the LEDs you're not going to run into issues with RBE like you will with the lamp powered high brightness pseudo 4K machine. I just have very little faith in these new pseudo 4K machines, especially when you factor in the poor performance reports coming from people who've already seen them at trade shows. But as always, we'll see...
 
#46 ·
If I'm looking at the correct machine, the reported power consumption is 175W vs 267W for the Epson LS 10000 and around 350W as the median for Lamp-based PJ's
 
#47 ·
175 watts max power is correct.
 
#48 ·
Deal on limited quantity has been approved. :)
 
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