Epson Pro Cinema LS10500 HDR Laser-Phosphor Projector CEDIA 2016 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Epson Pro Cinema LS10500 HDR Laser-Phosphor Projector CEDIA 2016

Epson is bringing a new flagship projector to CEDIA 2016. The Epson Pro Cinema LS10500 is an update to the LS10000 projector first introduced two years ago.



Like its predecessor, the new model uses three reflective-LCD imagers and a blue-laser/yellow-phosphor-wheel illumination source for super-quiet operation, nearly instant power on and off, and an estimated 30,000-hour lifespan with almost no decrease in brightness. It also incorporates Epson's 4K Enhanced feature that shifts each pixel in the 1080p imagers back and forth by half a pixel diagonally to double the number of effective pixels on the screen from 2 million to 4 million, and it can accept and display a 4K/UHD signal from UHD Blu-ray or streaming sources.

But the LS10500 goes a big step farther with support for high dynamic range (HDR) in the form of the open HDR10 standard. That means even deeper blacks—Epson claims 0 lumens, or what it calls Absolute Black—and a maximum peak white and color brightness of 1500 lumens with a high-speed dynamic iris. And thanks to the laser/phosphor light source, the color gamut reaches sRGB in any mode and full DCI/P3 in Digital Cinema mode.

Other features retained from the LS10000 include a high-resolution, powered lens with memory that can store up to 10 presets of zoom, focus, and lens shift settings for different aspect ratios, including 2.4, 2.35, 1.85, and 1.78 without an anamorphic lens. Also provided are ISF calibration tools and lockable memories to ensure accurate performance.

Even better, the LS10500 will carry a list price of $8000—the same price as the LS10000 when it was introduced. It will be available this fall through CEDIA and specialty retailers with a three-year warranty.

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post #2 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 10:13 AM
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This is good news! The previous version of the laser-illuminated Epson was very nice.

But Scott... you gotta stop with this "HDR means deeper blacks" stuff you keep posting.

HDR does not improve blacks. We already had 0 IRE (darker than black) and 7.5 IRE (black) before HDR video grading. We have more "steps" in illumination now with HDR but not more below 0. So yes, we can have more detail in shadow but not darker blacks.

It's other advances in video projection and display technology that are improving black levels. Not HDR itself.

Last edited by Scott Simonian; 09-14-2016 at 10:21 AM.
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post #3 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Even better, the LS10500 will carry a list price of $8000—the same price as the LS10000 when it was introduced.
Shouldn't the price be dropping after 2 years of production, not holding steady? I don't see how that's worthy of an "even better".
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post #4 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Shouldn't the price be dropping after 2 years of production, not holding steady? I don't see how that's worthy of an "even better".
Yeah....I was anticipating a change, and was looking and hoping for a drop with this update....

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post #5 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Shouldn't the price be dropping after 2 years of production, not holding steady? I don't see how that's worthy of an "even better".
Ummm, perhaps because it will realize improved performance in multiple areas yet carry an identical list price from two years ago?

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post #6 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:06 AM
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Ummm, perhaps because it will realize improved performance in multiple areas yet carry an identical list price from two years ago?

James

Or they just haven't been selling that well.
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post #7 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:07 AM
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Seems to me it's about the same but with rated support for HDR.

Don't see anything new besides that.
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post #8 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:11 AM
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^ Yeah, that too (potentially not flying off the shelves). I wouldn't know if they have or have not- and certainly less so about the anticipated volume of an $8,000 projector. I DO know that it's not realistic (read: most times unfeasible) for a company to put "$x" more R/D, features, performance into a product and see the price spiral downward- especially so in a "new tech" product like this, 2 years in. Insert accurate (but boring and predictable) internet car-analogy, here:

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post #9 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Seems to me it's about the same but with rated support for HDR.

Don't see anything new besides that.
Didn't realize the former unit also included their 4K tech. Guess people will have units soon and we'll know what kind of rip-off (or "buy") it is, staying at the same price-point.

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post #10 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:17 AM
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It's not a "rip-off", imho. It's very nice. Just...more expensive than most can afford spend on 1080p resolution.

The main feature is the laser illumination and worth it if you use your projection system like a tv and we all should be able to.

Bulbs are so 20th century.
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post #11 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
^ Yeah, that too (potentially not flying off the shelves). I wouldn't know if they have or have not- and certainly less so about the anticipated volume of an $8,000 projector. I DO know that it's not realistic (read: most times unfeasible) for a company to put "$x" more R/D, features, performance into a product and see the price spiral downward- especially so in a "new tech" product like this, 2 years in. Insert accurate (but boring and predictable) internet car-analogy, here:

James
The reason I don't think it's selling well is, there has been such a very small number of people over the last two years that have posted in the LS10000 thread. I've checked other forums and the number seems small too. We see many more people posting in the (far more expensive) Sony 4K projector threads and, of course, the JVC threads.
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post #12 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
The reason I don't think it's selling well is, there has been such a very small number of people over the last two years that have posted in the LS10000 thread. I've checked other forums and the number seems small too. We see many more people posting in the (far more expensive) Sony 4K projector threads and, of course, the JVC threads.


This projector at 2,500 lumens looks like a winner. Still a little on the dark side for my 150" screen. I don't want to look at projector this expensive and wish it had a little more pop.
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post #13 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:26 AM
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This projector at 2,500 lumens looks like a winner. Still a little on the dark side for my 150" screen. I don't want to look at projector this expensive and wish it had a little more pop.
But how many lumens calibrated at rec 709 and wider color gamut?
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post #14 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:29 AM
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But how many lumens calibrated at rec 709 and wider color gamut?


The previous version put out about 1,200 in THX mode. Will have to see the specs on the new one in the reviews.
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post #15 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:38 AM
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This projector at 2,500 lumens looks like a winner. Still a little on the dark side for my 150" screen. I don't want to look at projector this expensive and wish it had a little more pop.
I have a 150" with a Panny AR-100 rated for 2800 (less, calibrated of course) and I know what you mean. Sometimes I think it may be a bit dim, other times I think it's perfect from 14'.

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post #16 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:54 AM
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I would consider this projector (if it could be purchased under $6000 from an authorized dealer), but given the LS10000 would only give me around a 20:000:1 native contrast ratio and my current RS4810 gives me 40-45,000:1, I just cannot take that big of a hit in my black pit room especially when I can get at least double of what I have today with an RS500 in my set-up. My RS4810 also gives me more than enough light for a while even as the lamp dims as I only put on around 600 hours a year or so. The laser stability for holding calibration long term would be appealing and I've heard some people say they like the image of a laser projector better (more natural, stable, etc.) but I would have to see one properly set-up to make a judgment. Earlier this year I went to a local A/V store to look at an LS10000 in their demo room and it was pathetic how it was set-up along with the fairly bright room. Of course, there is also the UHD aspect but I am okay holding off that for now and I don't watch 3D.
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post #17 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 12:02 PM
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Posting this question here as well as this seems to be the official thread for continued discussion about this projector:

This might just be completely unrealistic dreaming on my part, but do we know for sure that the panels have not been updated in any way and are completely identical to the panels in the LS10000? Sure they are still 1080p, but is it possible they could've made some tweaks to them, like improving the contrast performance a bit?
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post #18 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 12:08 PM
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I actually preferred the LS10000 to the JVC RS400 and Sony 320 (IIRC), and in split screens, the only way to tell the Epson was because of the better blacks in some scenes, and it's smoother less noisy image compared to the JVC. With BD I would take the Epson of the three. The Sony is just way over priced IMHO.

With the 10500 supporting P3 and HDR (for what its worth) Epson seem to have made a great projector even better for the same money. I can see the 10000 coming down in price further - they dropped it $750 retail recently here in the UK so maybe a further drop could happen to clear old stocks.
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post #19 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 12:08 PM
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I would consider this projector (if it could be purchased under $6000 from an authorized dealer), but given the LS10000 would only give me around a 20:000:1 native contrast ratio and my current RS4810 gives me 40-45,000:1, I just cannot take that big of a hit in my black pit room especially when I can get at least double of what I have today with an RS500 in my set-up. My RS4810 also gives me more than enough light for a while even as the lamp dims as I only put on around 600 hours a year or so. The laser stability for holding calibration long term would be appealing and I've heard some people say they like the image of a laser projector better (more natural, stable, etc.) but I would have to see one properly set-up to make a judgment. Earlier this year I went to a local A/V store to look at an LS10000 in their demo room and it was pathetic how it was set-up along with the fairly bright room. Of course, there is also the UHD aspect but I am okay holding off that for now and I don't watch 3D.
Definitely would be difficult to switch for people like you who own a JVC projector. The contrast and blacks are so good...hard to move away from that. So it's about priorities. Laser illumination is definitely the "next big thing" for projection. Wouldn't it be nice to have all those things you wanted? JVC with laser illumination and UHD? Oh yeah... there is one coming out. Only $30,000.

So for projectors in the under $10,000 range, your choices are limited. If you want it all... you can't have it all.

Man. Video gear is expensive.
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post #20 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
The reason I don't think it's selling well is, there has been such a very small number of people over the last two years that have posted in the LS10000 thread. I've checked other forums and the number seems small too. We see many more people posting in the (far more expensive) Sony 4K projector threads and, of course, the JVC threads.
Hi David, I also think you need a certain amount of stamina to post on the forums, particularly on AVS where tribal loyalties can be intense. For this reason amount others, numbers of posts may not be the best way of assessing the sales figures for a product. With regard to the new LS10500, I'm actually with you on the UHD issue. There seems a small but growing amount of material at the moment to support UHD and precious little standardised support for the domestic projection of HDR. The advantage for the LS10500 is its ability to process a 4k input and map 10 bit colour within the BT2020 container straight out of the UHD player. Us LS10000 owners are going to struggle to get SDR 10 bit colour with a downscaled 1080p input. I would love to compare the 10 bit colour of the new LS10500 to the old model just to see if the difference in colour was really worth all the hassle.
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post #21 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 02:11 PM
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Definitely would be difficult to switch for people like you who own a JVC projector. The contrast and blacks are so good...hard to move away from that. So it's about priorities. Laser illumination is definitely the "next big thing" for projection. Wouldn't it be nice to have all those things you wanted? JVC with laser illumination and UHD? Oh yeah... there is one coming out. Only $30,000.

So for projectors in the under $10,000 range, your choices are limited. If you want it all... you can't have it all.

Man. Video gear is expensive.
No kidding....I've been on the fence about jumping into the projector scene because a) I really want the laser tech due to the long life (at least two-three years) and lack of need for bulb replacement and b) I want something that we can watch for routine viewing and not just special purpose for movies. Something with a 15K or 30K laser life is perfect for that. I don't feel an urgent need to have 4K with true UHD/HDR/REC 2020 right now until there's more content and we get more stability in the blacks for video content. I can't justify spending $15K, let alone over $30K for the kitchen sink. To be honest, I need it closer to $5K or $6K if I'm going to get true 4K with laser, which is apparently a few years away still at least. Or for all I know the next hot thing two years from now will be 8K (LOL).
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post #22 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 02:32 PM
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I wish these CE's would stop using 4K and instead use UHD or 3840P http://www.uhdbdinnumbers.com/ There is no present or future agreement between the studios and BDA to ever offer DCI-4K 4096 x 2160 resolution.
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And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #23 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 02:34 PM
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Definitely would be difficult to switch for people like you who own a JVC projector. The contrast and blacks are so good...hard to move away from that. So it's about priorities. Laser illumination is definitely the "next big thing" for projection. Wouldn't it be nice to have all those things you wanted? JVC with laser illumination and UHD? Oh yeah... there is one coming out. Only $30,000.
So for projectors in the under $10,000 range, your choices are limited. If you want it all... you can't have it all. Man. Video gear is expensive.
Yes if JVC had released their Z projectoor at $8000 then they would be king of the hills at $30,000 good luck to them

The Epson looks cool but the same as when it fist launched it seems
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I'm disappointed that the lumen output has not increased -- I was truly hoping for a 20% bump so that I could run in medium laser mode SDR BT2020 to achieve 16 ftL on my planned 120"-wide AT screen with A-lens.
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post #25 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 04:23 PM
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So it's just a updated LS10000.....

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post #26 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 04:48 PM
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Compared to JVC rs500, is this one better? Thx
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post #27 of 87 Old 09-14-2016, 11:16 PM
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Compared to JVC rs500, is this one better? Thx
It depends what you want... what you consider "better". I'd stick with my RS500, but it's not laser.
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post #28 of 87 Old 09-15-2016, 04:51 AM
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Compared to JVC rs500, is this one better? Thx
If this really is just an LS10000 with a new "HDMI board" (ie new input support), then:

The RS500 will be cheaper, brighter, hugely higher contrast, maybe a bit sharper.

The LS10500 would have lasers.
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post #29 of 87 Old 09-15-2016, 05:21 AM
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The LS10500 would have lasers.
No sharks though so it's only half a solution.
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post #30 of 87 Old 09-15-2016, 07:18 AM
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No sharks though so it's only half a solution.
Yeah, it's disappointing
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