JVC CMD Vertical Banding: Affects all currently shipping lamp based JVC Projectors - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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JVC CMD Vertical Banding: Affects all currently shipping lamp based JVC Projectors

Enabling JVC's brand of frame interpolation (Clear Motion Drive) results in visible vertical banding. The issue has been present for multiple generations and can be seen in the currently (as of this posting) shipping JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/X5000), JVC DLA-RS420 (DLA-X570R), JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000), and the JVC RS520/RS620 (X7500/X9500).

Per limited initial reports the JVC 4500 is NOT affected.

While I have not personally tested a 2016 model the issue is said to be much less noticeable with these units and reportedly can be mostly mitigated with MPC adjustments. The same can not be said for the 2017s. Update 4/17/17: Per JVC Customer Service the 2016 models are also affected. They didn't elaborate on the severity of the issue potentially differing from year to year.

The issue is NOT present if CMD is disabled.

Functional frame interpolation is in my opinion something that should be a given at this price point. While purists may prefer to play back content without 'enhancement' I don't feel like the native motion resolution of a LCoS panel is sufficient for all usage.

I will be posting examples in this thread as I come upon them during normal viewing. The projector in my case is a RS420.

Hopefully we can provide JVC with enough information to address this issue. Please feel free to post additional examples as you find them and if possible provide the following:

Content being watched (For example disc name and timestamp).

Source (What model disc player etc).

Settings on the source (Output resolution....Deep Color etc)

Settings on the Projector (MPC, E -Shift, CMD High or Low).

Are there any other devices in the chain (AVR, Darbee etc).

Personally unless otherwise mentioned above I have not found a combination of settings that entirely removes the artifacts but I believe it is important to determine if any external factors are contributing to the problem.

I've attached an example of the issue from a previous thread. The banding is visible on the woman's face with CMD enabled. As mentioned above I will be providing additional examples in this thread as I see them and have time to make note of the time stamp / take pictures.
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Name:	CMD On.jpeg
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ID:	2055953   Click image for larger version

Name:	CMD Off.jpeg
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Size:	198.2 KB
ID:	2055961  
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Last edited by AMartin56; 04-17-2017 at 01:07 PM.
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post #2 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 09:30 AM
 
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I find this tread to be rather pointless as there is a lot of info on this in the present JVC treads and it has been a problem for a long time I am afraid. I agree 100% this is should not be present on any PJ with FI.

Timestamps from movies is rather pointless as it happens very often in all movies.

I personally reported this to JVC a long time ago with screenshots and data as CMD also affects the grayscale in a negative way, but it has not resulted in any fix. Why this happened with the CMD upgrade of the RS4910/X500 series I have no idea and why JVC has not come up with a fix I find very disappointing.

Edit: I withdraw the statement that this tread is pointless as I see the need for it after all.

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post #3 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 09:39 AM
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I find it right on point,

I prefer to have one thread referencing this issue than to have to read many pages of different threads to know that JVC projectors have an issue with their CMD for the last 2 versions.
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post #4 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I find this tread to be rather pointless as there is a lot of info on this in the present JVC treads and it has been a problem for a long time I am afraid. I agree 100% this is should not be present on any PJ with FI.

Timestamps from movies is rather pointless as it happens very often in all movies.

I personally reported this to JVC a long time ago with screenshots and data as CMD also affects the grayscale in a negative way, but it has not resulted in any fix. Why this happened with the CMD upgrade of the RS4910/X500 series I have no idea and why JVC has not come up with a fix I find very disappointing.
Thanks for the feedback. I just don't agree that the thread is useless.

I think it's important that the subset of users that use FI be aware of how broken it is currently. I get that most owners don't use it and that leads to the lack of discussion on the subject but people should know that it's currently borked.

I don't blame my sales rep because by all accounts the banding is WORSE than on last year's model (which couldn't be anticipated...I pre-ordered) but we had lengthy conversations (I also appreciate the time they took for this) and the subject came up repeatedly. In this case I asked a very knowledgeable source if in their opinion (which I also realize is subjective) I would be able to achieve results similar to Sony Motionflow on Low with the options available on the JVC and I was given an immediate yes.

In hindsight I have ZERO problem with my retailer and how they handle things in general but it would have useful for me to be aware of the banding issues prior to my purchase. And I read near every thread I could get my hands on. But it is hardly ever discussed. Even knowing what I know now it's hard to find info because of a general 'I turn that $@&! off' mentality. Which is their right but this feature should still work when advertised as 'New and improved for 2017!'.

If I can help ONE potential buyer who likes FI ask the follow up question 'What about the banding?' when told the motion smoothing on the $4k + JVC compares well with a Sony I'll be satisfied.

And quite frankly JVC seems to have very limited engineering resources compared to larger companies and it's quite possible that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. They've ignored the subject for long enough.





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post #5 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 10:09 AM
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Looks like it's time to sell your JVC and go buy a Sony projector.
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post #6 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 10:45 AM
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AMartin56, thanks for starting this thread and as you know I'm right there with you on this issue. It's important to make potential buyers aware of the currently broken CMD as this is a very important feature for many of us. I am hopeful for a fix for a few reasons, most recently Kris's post today about working with the engineering guys from JVC on this today. With any luck, a fix will be here shortly.
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post #7 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 11:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Thanks for the feedback. I just don't agree that the thread is useless.

I think it's important that the subset of users that use FI be aware of how broken it is currently. I get that most owners don't use it and that leads to the lack of discussion on the subject but people should know that it's currently borked.

I don't blame my sales rep because by all accounts the banding is WORSE than on last year's model (which couldn't be anticipated...I pre-ordered) but we had lengthy conversations (I also appreciate the time they took for this) and the subject came up repeatedly. In this case I asked a very knowledgeable source if in their opinion (which I also realize is subjective) I would be able to achieve results similar to Sony Motionflow on Low with the options available on the JVC and I was given an immediate yes.

In hindsight I have ZERO problem with my retailer and how they handle things in general but it would have useful for me to be aware of the banding issues prior to my purchase. And I read near every thread I could get my hands on. But it is hardly ever discussed. Even knowing what I know now it's hard to find info because of a general 'I turn that $@&! off' mentality. Which is their right but this feature should still work when advertised as 'New and improved for 2017!'.

If I can help ONE potential buyer who likes FI ask the follow up question 'What about the banding?' when told the motion smoothing on the $4k + JVC compares well with a Sony I'll be satisfied.

And quite frankly JVC seems to have very limited engineering resources compared to larger companies and it's quite possible that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. They've ignored the subject for long enough.





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I agree with you on everything regarding the issue, but I dont agree on we needing a whole tread for this. And it seem like it was a surprise to you guys and I find that rather surprising as this have been mentioned for years in the forum and have now been a problem with the last three generations.
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post #8 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I agree with you on everything regarding the issue, but I dont agree on we needing a whole tread for this. And it seem like it was a surprise to you guys and I find that rather surprising as this have been mentioned for years in the forum and have now been a problem with the last three generations.
I think this might be because JVC is getting a whole new audience with the new low lag mode. That's what convinced me to return my Sony and get the JVC.
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post #9 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I agree with you on everything regarding the issue, but I dont agree on we needing a whole tread for this. And it seem like it was a surprise to you guys and I find that rather surprising as this have been mentioned for years in the forum and have now been a problem with the last three generations.
It was a surprise to ME. I can't speak for others. Prior to purchasing my current JVC projector I'd heard about potential streaking and bright corners. I was aware that motion resolution was not ideal even with FI on...Most people seemed to define JVC CMD off as 300 lines of resolution, CMD Low as 600 and CMD High as 900... Sony Motionflow Low was described as 700 lines (I have no way of confirming any of this since I don't have the test pattern they use) but had no reason to suspect it was broken...Just slightly behind the Sony in performance. Everything else was awesome in JVC land if you go by how it was talked about.

I'm not sure what determines thread worthiness. There is another well know defect with another brand that is reportedly been going on for generations and it got its own thread. How is this any different?
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post #10 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
I think this might be because JVC is getting a whole new audience with the new low lag mode. That's what convinced me to return my Sony and get the JVC.
I think this is a very good point. JVC is reaching a new audience with Low Latency mode (which seems to work extremely well by the way) and the 'new blood' is most likely coming from a projector with better motion handling.
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post #11 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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A few additional pictures I previously posted elsewhere. I don't have an accurate time stamp. Source is 1080p Blu-ray discs with MPC at defaults and E Shift off.







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post #12 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I agree with you on everything regarding the issue, but I dont agree on we needing a whole tread for this. And it seem like it was a surprise to you guys and I find that rather surprising as this have been mentioned for years in the forum and have now been a problem with the last three generations.
The fact that it was mentioned before, yet so many people are surprised is precisely why a thread is a good idea. I've been reading about JVC projectors for the last two years, but it wasn't until a few people moved from other projectors to JVC to take advantage of the x20's low latency mode did it become clear to me that this is a very real issue, and not just a few random occurrences.

AMartin56 - Can you please provide the information you suggest gathering for the photos in the first post?
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post #13 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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The fact that it was mentioned before, yet so many people are surprised is precisely why a thread is a good idea. I've been reading about JVC projectors for the last two years, but it wasn't until a few people moved from other projectors to JVC to take advantage of the x20's low latency mode did it become clear to me that this is a very real issue, and not just a few random occurrences.

AMartin56 - Can you please provide the information you suggest gathering for the photos in the first post?
The photos in the first post are not mine so I don't have any background on those. It looks like a screen grab of World War Z from early in the film where he's still with his wife.

For the three pictures directly above I'm using a Sony S6500 outputting 1080p/24 in 12 bit 4:4:4 (this didnt improve anything over the defaults so I just left it). No Darbee. It's going through a Denon AVR currently but I saw the same banding when going directly to my projector with my old AVR that had to be bypassed. Disc is Jupiter Ascending 2D Blu-ray. Chapter 3 or 4 where they go visit the 'bee keeper guy'. It's very repeatable.

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post #14 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I should also mention that I will try to improve the quality of the photos but I doubt I will reach the quality of the well thought of comparison photos that are so popular elsewhere in this forum.

But frankly the defects are so obvious that I'm not sure professional photography is required to bring them out. But it may be more useful to be as precise as possible with camera placement etc. The above shots were taken with a phone.
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post #15 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 01:43 PM
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Try turning off deep colour and not running 4:4:4.

You should not have banding in 1080p

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post #16 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Try turning off deep colour and not running 4:4:4.

You should not have banding in 1080p
Already did that. Same results.
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post #17 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I agree with you on everything regarding the issue, but I dont agree on we needing a whole tread for this. And it seem like it was a surprise to you guys and I find that rather surprising as this have been mentioned for years in the forum and have now been a problem with the last three generations.
Why not have a thread on it ? Its a pretty focused topic.
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post #18 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Try turning off deep colour and not running 4:4:4.

You should not have banding in 1080p
My viewing habits are mostly 1080p. My only 4K sources are about half a dozen UHD discs. The rest of my viewing is original Blu-ray.

I actually rarely notice the banding with a UHD disc. And I notice it less with 1080p upscaled to 4k (although I prefer 1080p native with EShift off).

So you might start to see why this is a bit troubling. I could probably understand if CMD choked on a 4K signal but 1080p/24 with no bells and whistles should not be a problem at all.

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post #19 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I agree with you on everything regarding the issue, but I dont agree on we needing a whole tread for this. And it seem like it was a surprise to you guys and I find that rather surprising as this have been mentioned for years in the forum and have now been a problem with the last three generations.
Read a lot of JVC projector threads since 1 year and never catch this issue, so at least for me, this thread is useful.
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post #20 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 02:31 PM
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I agree that making a dedicated thread about it is completely fine if it can serve to put pressure on JVC to finally address this issue. Especially if they have actually gone backwards with the newest machines being worse with CMD banding than the previous ones.

It certainly bothered me quite a bit on the RS400 I owned for a couple of months.

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post #21 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 03:35 PM
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I find this tread to be rather pointless as there is a lot of info on this in the present JVC treads and it has been a problem for a long time I am afraid. I agree 100% this is should not be present on any PJ with FI.

Timestamps from movies is rather pointless as it happens very often in all movies.

I personally reported this to JVC a long time ago with screenshots and data as CMD also affects the grayscale in a negative way, but it has not resulted in any fix. Why this happened with the CMD upgrade of the RS4910/X500 series I have no idea and why JVC has not come up with a fix I find very disappointing.

If it's an issue it is not pointless. Talk about it, deal with it, find a solution and possibly pressure JVC to apply a fix.


Don't do what they did with Kaggy when he said JVC image was garbage in a thread he started, VW675 vs RS600 . The guy used a strong remark and yes he needed to take more time but he should not have been attacked and pressured into removing the thread. Ridiculous and the members who attacked him should have been ashamed .
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post #22 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Enabling JVC's brand of frame interpolation (Clear Motion Drive) results in visible vertical banding. The issue has been present for multiple generations and can be seen in the currently (as of this posting) shipping JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/X5000), JVC DLA-RS420 (DLA-X570R), JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000), and the JVC RS520/RS620 (X7500/X9500).

The issue is NOT present if CMD is disabled.

Functional frame interpolation is in my opinion something that should be a given at this price point. While purists may prefer to play back content without 'enhancement' I don't feel like the native motion resolution of a LCoS panel is sufficient for all usage.

I will be posting examples in this thread as I come upon them during normal viewing. The projector in my case is a RS420.

Hopefully we can provide JVC with enough information to address this issue. Please feel free to post additional examples as you find them and if possible provide the following:

Content being watched (For example disc name and timestamp).

Source (What model disc player etc).

Settings on the source (Output resolution....Deep Color etc)

Settings on the Projector (MPC, E -Shift, CMD High or Low).

Are there any other devices in the chain (AVR, Darbee etc).

Personally unless otherwise mentioned above I have not found a combination of settings that entirely removes the artifacts but I believe it is important to determine if any external factors are contributing to the problem.

I've attached an example of the issue from a previous thread. The banding is visible on the woman's face with CMD enabled. As mentioned above I will be providing additional examples in this thread as I see them and have time to make note of the time stamp / take pictures.

I have the RS600 and have never seen this and believe me I have been looking critically . Now in saying that I guess I have not used CMD very often. I did like the process in the beginning but at some point just stopped using it altogether. I did notice SOE but never banding. I have seen plenty of posterization though. But it was in the source because it showed up on the VW675 exactly at the same places .
Will fire up CMD and have a closer look, I'm sure it's there .


Hope you can pressure a solution for the issue in the form of a software update, I'm sure all would appreciate the efforts.

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post #23 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
I have the RS600 and have never seen this and believe me I have been looking critically . Now in saying that I guess I have not used CMD very often. I did like the process in the beginning but at some point just stopped using it altogether. I did notice SOE but never banding. I have seen plenty of posterization though. But it was in the source because it showed up on the VW675 exactly at the same places .


Hope you can pressure a solution for the issue in the form of a software update, I'm sure all would appreciate the efforts.
There are reports that it's worse in the latest generation. It may be hard to prove. Not sure how many people jumped in a year for low latency.

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post #24 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 04:19 PM
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I am yet to be sold on the need for CMD to be anything but Off.
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post #25 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hellohowareyou View Post
I am yet to be sold on the need for CMD to be anything but Off.
Thank you for your feedback. Be sure to vote in the poll that went up yesterday.

If you don't use CMD at all it's a non-issue. For those that do it's a big problem.
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post #26 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 04:31 PM
 
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If it's an issue it is not pointless. Talk about it, deal with it, find a solution and possibly pressure JVC to apply a fix.


Don't do what they did with Kaggy when he said JVC image was garbage in a thread he started, VW675 vs RS600 . The guy used a strong remark and yes he needed to take more time but he should not have been attacked and pressured into removing the thread. Ridiculous and the members who attacked him should have been ashamed .
I dont deny there is a problem and I have reported and provided data to JVC a couple of years ago with reports of the grayscale problem CMD makes and pictures of the banding. I am also the first to say the JVCs have many problems and are far from perfect as all other projectors. But you seem to ignore this completely and ony think of me as a JVC fanboy. What you actually need to know is as a small side job I work as an agent for a store in Norway and sell and calibrate projectors for that store. It sells Epson, Sony and JVC projectors. So I have nothing to gain for simply just bashing Sony like you say and think I am doing.

If Kaggy is the one posting about the VW675 vs RS620 I just told him one hour is not enough to make a good opinion with two different projectors, I never attacked him and have nothing to be ashamed for.
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post #27 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 04:36 PM
 
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There are reports that it's worse in the latest generation. It may be hard to prove. Not sure how many people jumped in a year for low latency.

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I own both a RS600, RS420 and will pick up a RS520 tomorrow and I can confirm the problem is a little worse on this years models. Last years the banding could be removed by a great deal with the right MPC settings, this years models not that much. So I think it is a little worse, but if you set smooting in the MPC menu to 3-5 the banding will be reduced. The downside it softens the image a little.

I will withdraw my post about this not needing a tread as I see the need for it.
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post #28 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 04:38 PM
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Thank you for your feedback. Be sure to vote in the poll that went up yesterday.

If you don't use CMD at all it's a non-issue. For those that do it's a big problem.

No I am rather looking for you or anyone else to tell me the reason for creating an artificial frame interpolation when the content creator didn't do it themselves. Obviously a computer algorithm trying to interpolate between two scenes won't be perfect.

I am not a fan of some device's doctoring algorithm to be better or even equal than the creators themselves. And I should expect to see imperfections/bastardisations when using those doctoring measures, no? At least in first principles. And when the doctoring amounts to every alternate frame that one sees, you have got to have credible reasons why you are doing that.

Last edited by Hellohowareyou; 03-29-2017 at 04:42 PM.
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post #29 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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No I am rather looking for you or anyone else to tell me the reason for creating an artificial frame interpolation when the content creator didn't do it themselves. Obviously a computer algorithm trying to interpolate between two scenes won't be perfect.

I am not a fan of some device's doctoring algorithm to be better or even equal than the creators themselves. And I should expect to see imperfections/bastardisations when using those doctoring measures, no? At least in first principles. And when the doctoring amounts to every alternate frame that one sees, you have got to have credible reasons why you are doing that.
Sorry. Not my job.
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post #30 of 1415 Old 03-29-2017, 04:55 PM
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You don't have a reason why you are forcing frame interpolation? And yet complaining when the "option" produces subpar results?

Last edited by Hellohowareyou; 03-29-2017 at 04:59 PM.
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