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Sony VPL-HW65ES severe loss of contrast (1275 hours)

26K views 186 replies 26 participants last post by  ltd76gold 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi all,

Well, it happened. The "Sony SXRD degradation thread" (just recently closed by mods because two users couldn't stay away from each other's throat) was saying that this model from Sony would be the first model in which Sony implemented countermeasures for the contrast degradation issue of SXRD panels ... well, I don't think so.

Starting 1-2 weeks ago or so, the black level on my HW65ES got brighter and brighter, and also a little blueish in my opinion, to the point where it's quite horrific compared to what I remember from last year. It now bothers me even when movies don't have dark scenes. It even spills/leaks outside the display area about 5-7cm. What was previously close to black is now depressingly gray (and slightly blueish).

It was bought in April 2016 from Amazon, and has been showing the most beautiful colors and contrast until recently. I have 1275 hours on it. It mostly ran in low lamp mode (flicker wasn't a problem, happened very rarely).

The contrast loss was a little sudden (though I may be biased as I started paying attention to it ever since I first noticed it), and kind of coincided with the time it asked me to clean the dust filter. It made the scvreen black and displayed the "clean dust filter message". I opened the dust filter pane at the front and it powered itself down instantly (didn't know it would do that). Cleaned the dust filter nicely (wasn't very dusty), and put it back on. Within about two weeks time, I started noticing the black was much brighter ...

I'll post some pictures soon, though I'm not sure how to capture it best for you - maybe you can let me know what kind of pics would you like to see.

Question: Has anyone here been successful in getting a HWxxES projector fixed by Sony wrt contrast loss? The stories I've read were not encouraging at all. Any advice? Anything I can do?

I'm really upset. It's pretty much the most expensive thing we have in our home, considering it a good investment because we love watching stuff :(
 
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#2 ·
Hi all,

Well, it happened. The "Sony SXRD degradation thread" (recently closed by mods because two users couldn't stay away from each other's throat) was saying that this model from Sony would be the first model in which Sony implemented countermeasures for the contrast degradation issue of SXRD panels ... well, I don't think so.

Starting 1-2 weeks ago or so, the black level on my HW65ES got brighter and brighter, and also blueish, to the point where it's quite horrific compared to what I remember from last year. It now bothers me even when movies don't have dark scenes. It even spills/leaks outside the display area about 5-7cm. What was previously close to black is now depressingly blueish/gray.

It was bought in April 2016 from Amazon, and has been showing the most beautiful colors and contrast until recently. I have 1275 hours on it. It mostly ran in low lamp mode (flicker wasn't a problem, happened very rarely).

The contrast loss was quite sudden as I started noticing it immediately, and kind of coincided with the time it asked me to clean the dust filter. It made the scvreen black and displayed the "clean dust filter message". I opened the dust filter pane at the front and it powered itself down instantly (didn't know it would do that). Cleaned the dust filter nicely (wasn't very dusty), and put it back on. Within about two weeks time, I started noticing the black was much brighter ...

I'll post some pictures soon, though I'm not sure how to capture it best for you - maybe you can let me know what kind of pics would you like to see.

Question: Has anyone here been successful in getting a HWxxES projector fixed by Sony wrt contrast loss? The stories I've read were not encouraging at all. Any advice? Anything I can do?

I'm really upset. It's pretty much the most expensive thing we have in our home, considering it a good investment because we love watching stuff :(
Do you have any measuring devices like an iD3 that you can use to measure your gamma?

I don't doubt your contrast has declined, I would think actually with this many hours on your projector that your gamma would also likely be quite shocking which will have a bigger impact on the image looking overall grey IMO.

Here is what my 300ES did by around the same time as your unit.

Grey scale looks OK, contrast even measured not too bad, but the overall image was very washed out I had noticed...



Then I took a look at gamma. This was with the 2.2 preset. Not good.



Then again a couple hundred hours later, this time with 2.6 preset. At this point, the mediocre gamma controls in the Sony were utterly maxed out and useless. Despite asking for the Software to fix it, I heard nothing back.



 
#6 ·
It's pretty straight forward. You'll need some sort of test disc. There are some really good free ones out there such as AVSforum's 709 calibration disc (found here). The best and most accurate way is to measure from the lens, not the screen. You'll need a tripod or something to position your light meter so that it will not move whatsoever while taking the readings. You'll want to position the meter facing the lens of the projector, perpendicular to the face of the lens and as close to center image as you can. The meter should be pretty close to the lens, within a foot or so. You'll know if you have the meter too close if it maxes out the light meters reading capability, so position it as close as you can without maxing out the reading capabilities when putting up the full field 100% white pattern. From there it's pretty simple. Once you know you have the meter setup properly, pull up the 100% IRE full field pattern and write down the reading. Next, pull up the 0% IRE full field pattern and take the reading. Just as a reminder, you'll want to disable the dynamic iris so you can measure the projector's native contrast as I think this is a more revealing number (and accurate as dynamic contrast is harder to measure unless you have a high end light meter). Once you have both numbers, divide the two to get your contrast number.
 
#54 ·
It's pretty straight forward. You'll need some sort of test disc. There are some really good free ones out there such as AVSforum's 709 calibration disc (found here). The best and most accurate way is to measure from the lens, not the screen. You'll need a tripod or something to position your light meter so that it will not move whatsoever while taking the readings. You'll want to position the meter facing the lens of the projector, perpendicular to the face of the lens and as close to center image as you can. The meter should be pretty close to the lens, within a foot or so. You'll know if you have the meter too close if it maxes out the light meters reading capability, so position it as close as you can without maxing out the reading capabilities when putting up the full field 100% white pattern. From there it's pretty simple. Once you know you have the meter setup properly, pull up the 100% IRE full field pattern and write down the reading. Next, pull up the 0% IRE full field pattern and take the reading. Just as a reminder, you'll want to disable the dynamic iris so you can measure the projector's native contrast as I think this is a more revealing number (and accurate as dynamic contrast is harder to measure unless you have a high end light meter). Once you have both numbers, divide the two to get your contrast number.
I have the 0% and 100% on the DVE HD Basics bluray, but they're called "100% Window w/New Pluge" and "Video Black w/New Pluge". In other words they have the proper amplitude in a large rectangle centered on the screen with a black field around it. If I have the meter at the center of the lense, is it okay to use these patterns for readings, or does the surround black field throw off the measurement?
 
#7 ·
@Seegs108 - Many thanks for the concise write up! I have all I need for that. I take it the two images you speak of are simply a fullscreen white and a fullscreen black images. Also, I take it I should set the lamp mode to "high" and the contrast and brightness to "max"? Should I also disable the other features for sharpness, noise, etc?
 
#9 ·
You'll want the brightness and contrast set to how you'd normally view content. There are test patterns on the 709 disc for this. Believe it or not the lamp setting won't make much of a difference. Just be sure to set the dynamic iris to off.
 
#8 ·
Seems to me that the contrast lost described in the old thread was a lot more insidious... it cropped up slowly over time. I don't think it usually went from nothing to 'oh my that looks awful' in two weeks.

Having said that what you are describing is not right and definitely suggests some sort of optical block failure.

Not trying to be a jerk but have you even called Sony yet? It seems like running to buy a meter etc assumes they won't help you but if it's truly bluish they might repair it with pictures alone.

If they haven't refused service it just seems a bit premature to assume they won't and start in with all the contrast measurements.
 
#10 ·
If he did call it would be better to know exactly what happened. Also there are plenty of people here interested to know if this unit is susceptible to contrast loss. We've already seen one 5000ES be swapped out due to degradation. It's looking more and more like Sony hasn't actually fixed the issue.
 
#14 ·
Did you pay full MSRP for the projector ($3,999)? If you did not and your receipt shows a lower price, then I doubt you are covered by Sony Warranty.
 
#15 ·
My perception of "sudden" loss over 2 weeks may also be inaccurate. I don't exclude the possibility of it having been more gradual (but I actually hope there is an actual problem that Sony will agree to fix/exchange, rather than the gradual contrast SXRD problem).

I've only started paying attention to it once I first noticed it about 2 weeks ago in a video that had a 21:9 aspect ratio (instead of the 16:9 content that I normally display). I was a little struck by the fact that I could really notice the difference between the black bars in the actual display area, and the wall around it, and that it spills beyond the actual display area (there is leakage beyond the 4 borders), whereas previously that wasn't the case; previously black borders were much darker ... since then, it kept bothering me and I feel it's getting worse.

I'll do measurements later tonight after I can make a totally dark room.
 
#19 ·
Ok so I made measurements. Lamp on high, reference mode set (no auto iris, no reality creation etc), lens in the center. I measured at a few distances different distances to the projector, corresponding to the end scales on my lux meter, including at about 10cm away, and also varied the color temperature (D65 and D75).

The measured contrast varied between 2750:1 and 3050:1. This is quite lower than what @Seegs108 mentioned. What's the verdict?

I'll try to make some photos too.
 
#21 ·
Native contrast should be much closer to 6000:1 if not a little higher than this with a new un-degraded unit. If your measurements were repeatable and setting up the meter in different locations to supplement your measurements I'd say you're looking at panel degradation. Also I would also make a strong argument of losing half the native contrast would yield a very visible difference, hence what you've recently witnessed with blacks not looking anywhere near as "black" as they once did.
 
#22 ·
I made measurements at at least 6 different locations where I was getting blacks as low as 0.7 lux (about half a meter away) and as high as 60.8 lux (about 10 cm away), and 3-4 different values in-between. Contrast was always within those bounds.

So I guess it's time to call Sony. What would you guys advise me to tell them to persuade them to fix/exchange it, preferably without wasting my "youth" arguing my case?
 
#25 ·
Many thanks for the advice. I'm in the UK, so I'm not sure the same email address works. Should it?

Last year when I called the UK Prime support number regarding the convergence issue I spoke to someone who was actually quite knowledgeable (Femi, japanese chap) and who created a support case very quickly ... didn't end well ultimately though.
 
#27 ·
So I found some photos I took last year (when testing the convergence issue) and I setup the same camera with the same manual settings and in the same location as much as possible (from memory, and from the props in the original photo). Both photos are of the same static image on the projector, which in both cases was set on Reference mode with all features disabled -- no settings were changed on the projector since last year.

I can see contrast loss, as well as some brightness loss, and also a blueish shift (I wasn't wrong in my previous perception).

Here are cropped and distorted versions (to fit the same area) for direct comparison so you can flip between images:

21 May 2016: https://i.gyazo.com/0880e6e7ebb5759b48fb5c9782df7286.jpg
28 Apr 2017: https://i.gyazo.com/1c194232eadb02fab4a6cf0ad2658c52.jpg

Original photos (uncropped, undistorted, with EXIF info):

21 May 2016: https://i.gyazo.com/db1fb9700f1fc55a8467427e9abe065b.jpg
28 Apr 2017: https://i.gyazo.com/374b7a59052f15764309da9558b3eb78.jpg

Calling Sony tomorrow (or Monday if they don't do Saturdays).
 
#31 ·
Is this just the dimming of the lamp (ie if no settings were changed) versus a loss of contrast? Don't get me wrong, I am not ignoring the contrast loss issue as i have seen it, but at 1275 hours, the lamp will not be as bright so if the contrast and brightness settings were the same as when new, i would expect the picture to be dimmer and potentially some shift in color balance may even occur. I like the suggestion of JAVS to work towards calibrating the projector or at least setting the brightness and contrast to consistent levels as when new (actual measurements at the screen)

I have found that i have improved my picture quality by calibrating my projector (500es), getting the white balance right, gamma adjusted back to simulate 2.2 (i havent figured out yet how to change the gamma response other than bumping up to a 2.4 setting recognizing that i am getting 2.2 to 2.25 measured gamma). I am still learning how to use the Sony calibration pro software and Chromapure, but it has definitely helped. i am about to tackle the color gamut to make sure its close. I hope to have some data to post this weekend
 
#29 ·
I was going to post after the case was finalized by Sony, but sure. See full exchange until now with Sony rep below. All very civil and swift. It's going to be collected tomorrow. I'm not holding my breath (last year for a convergence issue they eventually said they couldn't find any fault), but I'm hoping for the best.

Sent: 29/04/2017 15:35
To: primesupport@eu.sony.com
Subject: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES

Dear Sony,

I purchased a VPL-HW65ES in April 2016, serial number 5000051. It has been displaying the most beautiful colors and contrast, up until about 1-2 weeks ago when I observed a noticeable contrast loss. It almost coincided with the time it asked to clean the dust filter (which I did). The blacks are not at all as black as they used to be, they are much brighter (and slightly blueish). There is also some background lighting leakage outside the display area, a halo of about 5-8cm.

Something is wrong, most likely a problem with the optical block.

I would be grateful if you could investigate and fix the problem. Feel free to call me on the number at the bottom.

I note that I also measured the contrast using an accurate lux meter at various distances from the projector in a dark room (in reference mode, no iris) and all my measurements show a contrast between 2750:1 and 3050:1, which is less than half of what others are getting on the same projector model, and is inline with my observation of the loss of contrast and brighter black levels.

Best wishes,

Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 09:21:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Sony PrimeSupport
Subject: RE: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES [ ref: ]

Dear

Sorry to learn that, would you please send us a clip showing the issue?
- Which input is used and what the unit is connected to?
- How was the Air filter? ( Clean / DIrty)
- have you modified the settings ?
- was the unit's firmware upgraded to latest version?

Regards
Ben

Sent: 01/05/2017 16:43
To: primesupport@eu.sony.com
Subject: Re: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES [ ]

Dear Ben,

Thanks for getting back. The problem is a loss of contrast so a video clip will be useless since there is nothing to compare it to, nor do I have any high quality video recording equipment. I do however have photos taken 10 months ago and then again last week, using the same digital camera and identical camera and projector settings and conditions, which show the colors are washed out compared to 10 months ago. Links are below.

I have not modified any of the projector's settings, nor did I disconnected the projector from the PC. It has been connected to the same PC continuously, on the HDMI 1 port. When I cleaned the air filter, it looked relatively clean (not a lot of dust came out of it when I blew). I have not upgraded the firmware (firmware version is 1.002). Like I said, I have not changed any of the projector settings or location since May 2016, when the first photo was taken.

The photos are large so I uploaded them here for you:

Cropped to the same area:

21 May 2016: https://i.gyazo.com/0880e6e7ebb5759b48fb5c9782df7286.jpg
28 Apr 2017: https://i.gyazo.com/1c194232eadb02fab4a6cf0ad2658c52.jpg

Original, uncropped (with EXIF info):

21 May 2016: https://i.gyazo.com/db1fb9700f1fc55a8467427e9abe065b.jpg
28 Apr 2017: https://i.gyazo.com/374b7a59052f15764309da9558b3eb78.jpg

Best wishes,

Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 08:42:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Sony PrimeSupport
Subject: Re: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES [ ref: ]

Dear

We will collect the unit for testing. Would you please confirm the address where i can send you the box to pack the unit?

Regards
Ben

Sent: 02/05/2017 12:01
To: primesupport@eu.sony.com
Subject: Re: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES [ ref: ]

Dear Ben,

Thank you. Would it be possible to have a replacement unit while you are testing mine? My address is:



Best wishes,

Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 11:34:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: Sony PrimeSupport
Subject: Re: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES [ ref: ]

Dear

Unfortunately we do not send loan unit unless you have a contract that stipulate so, nevertheless, i could send you a box to collect your unit as soon as possible.

Regards
Ben

Sent: 02/05/2017 13:43
To: primesupport@eu.sony.com
Subject: Re: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES [ ref: ]

Dear Ben,

Last year in May I was sent a loan unit when an issue was being looked at. It would be nice if it was possible to do so again.

Best wishes,

Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 14:50:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: Sony PrimeSupport
Subject: Re: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES [ ref: ]

Dear

Last year was a replacement as the unit was new, unfortunately this time i cannot replace the unit and we need to collect for repair.

Regards
Ben

Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 15:53:42 +0100
To: Sony PrimeSupport
Subject: Re: contrast loss on VPL-HW65ES [ ref: ]

Dear Ben,

I see, thanks for clarifying.

Best wishes,

Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 18:00:30 +0100
From: PSE.UKTec@eu.sony.com
Subject: Sony Service - Job Number: 427293

Dear customer,

We have despatched packaging for your Sony VPLHW65/B from our service centre.

Prime Support Ref:
Job Number:
Model: VPLHW65/B
Serial Number: 5000051
Courier: UPS
Tracking Number:
We expect the packaging to be delivered on the next working day.

Kind regards,
Sony Europe Limited
 
#33 ·
In my case, if Sony repairs it, then I may keep it for another year, then send it back to them to fix, and do this back and forth until my 3 year Prime warranty expires. Then I'll either sell it or keep it for another year or so, and sell it then. If I get 4 years out of this projector then I will have enjoyed it sufficiently without being frustrated that I wasted a lot of money (although $60k is a lot more than I paid for mine, $3k is still a lot of money for me).

If Sony claims there is no fault and refuses to fix anything, then, well, I'll have to decide whether to (a) keep it until the degrading becomes unbearable, (b) try to send it back to Amazon, or (c) sell it as is since even in the current state it's still better than many projectors out there.

Regardless of the outcome in my case, it should be informative for all of us.
 
#45 ·
the amec ca813 light meter can be purchased from ebay or amazon for about $150 usd. it has good low level accuracy and is what a lot of people have used for measuring contrast. However, IMO, getting a good colorimeter and calibration software is much more valuable. The light meter is good to measure contrast, but thats about all. with an X‐Rite i1 Display Pro III and chromapure software, you can measure and properly adjust your projector. I have purchased the light meter and the colorimeter but find the colorimeter a much more valuable tool.
 
#48 ·
If Sony repairs the projector then I may buy the X-Rite i1Display Pro (this). If not then I'm not sure I want to invest even more alongside a projector that has already degraded. I may just sell it or ask Amazon for a refund.

Seems others here are happy to keep a degrading unit and tinker with settings, getting a lower brightness and brighter black levels, but I'm not happy with that. I could put up with a slightly dimmed brightness, but not with noticeably brighter blacks even on low lamp mode (which now annoy me for all movies that are less than 16:9, which is most of them nowadays).

This degrading behaviour wasn't advertised by Sony so I consider it unacceptable.
 
#51 ·
Which sucks because Sony offers a lot for the money if the contrast loss isn't an issue. I would have bought a 45ES instead of the Epson 3100 of it weren't for the potential of contrast loss and the $500 lamps.
 
#53 ·
I have seen these issues for years with all SXRD products be they consumer or commercial. I have helped some of my client's get replacement products and repairs with good data. Unfortunately, many of the repairs appear to use used optical blocks that may be as defective as the original ones. I would only accept a replacement unit, but you usually have to get it repaired and then show that unit is bad as well.

It tends to be very difficult to get them to fix this even under warranty.

When Sony lost the class action suit on their rear projection SXRD products getting resolution was much easier.

The panel below is a 625ES with discoloration and uneven light output after less than 500 hours. I see these problems in as little as 250 hours of use.

.

I recommend people avoid SXRD.


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