Sony VPL-VW885ES / VPL-VW760ES laser projector announced - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 1580 Old 05-11-2017, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony VPL-VW885ES / VPL-VW760ES laser projector announced

The new Sony laser have been annouce at IFA:

- Model : VPL-VW885ES (US) or VPL-VW760ES (Europe)
- 4K HDR
- Laser light source
- 2000 lumens
- New improved lens
- 18gbs HDMI
- FI in 4k
- 25000$ US or 15 000 Euro

Full specs : https://www.sony.com/electronics/projector/vpl-vw885es

First look impression by projector reviews: http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony...jector-review/

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post #2 of 1580 Old 05-11-2017, 07:03 PM
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Yep, I may even have a good look at this one...

Hoping they have new panels inside them with no banding and posterization.

Hoping they slightly improved the contrast, but with 100% fade to blacks will be appealing, interesting to see with that enabled what the contrast will be at 1, 2 & 3% APL. The Sony's used to start pulling ahead after about 5% APL anyway vs the JVC's due to the higher ANSI, so this might be the one to get.

Laser... excellent.

High Quality Lens - Guessing is the same as the 1100ES and the 5000ES, if so, excellent! My major gripe with the current Sony's solved.

Price is very good too IMO.

As long as they have fixed the posterization and added 18gbps boards, this will be tough to look past IMO.

I wonder if the colour will be comparable to the 5000ES, if so, excellent again!

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post #3 of 1580 Old 05-11-2017, 08:02 PM
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It will be great if the price is correct. Just means we are gettting closer to cheaper laser 4k projectors
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post #4 of 1580 Old 05-11-2017, 08:47 PM
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I agree with all points @Javs has made. This sounds like a very intriguing option!
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post #5 of 1580 Old 05-11-2017, 09:04 PM
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Same info I posted back in January, except now even a lower price!!

Sony 1100ES Replacement - 4K Laser
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post #6 of 1580 Old 05-11-2017, 11:16 PM
 
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Very interesting. I would love to see this unit in action!
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post #7 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 01:11 AM
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I was about to place an order for the Z1/RS4500......will now wait and see how the Sony pans out....
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post #8 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 03:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I hope this new Sony will have a manual iris and a working FI with 4k source.

Also, if Sony could allow hdmi board upgrade (like the 5000), it will be icing on the cake.
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post #9 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 04:39 AM
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I think for projector technology to get the most out of the UHD benefit of HDR laser light source is necessary. The Z1/5000ES provide a very good look at what is possible and will be further improved upon as time passes, but the cost of those units limits them to many. The vw1200 will hopefully give us a good part of the reference laser projectors at a price that more of us can indulge. I'm sure it will have its warts like even the big boys have but hopefully not enough to make it an unworthy value. I'm long overdue to upgrade to 4k and this one is at least a price that more of us can attain. They can't release this one soon enough for me.
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post #10 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
I was about to place an order for the Z1/RS4500......will now wait and see how the Sony pans out....
Smart move .Will be interesting to see how the Sony compares and the price point . JVC may have made some improvements, may have a better price and then there is the possibility of other
manufactures that can surprise us .

I have to move into a smaller theater next year this time so size is a factor too. I may very well have to settle on the Sony short throw option the VZ1000 but would prefer the choice other short
throw options. I don't think other short throw 4K laser options are on the table from others, we shall see .

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
I hope this new Sony will have a manual iris and a working FI with 4k source.

Also, if Sony could allow hdmi board upgrade (like the 5000), it will be icing on the cake.
I think the HDMI board upgrade is a guarantee as is the better optics like the 5000 . FI at 4K I have my fingers crossed as that will take more processing power
and some cooling issues to make it happen. A new chassis over the VW1100 for sure if 4K FI happens.
@RickAVManiac , this would be the machine for me at this point but only if the price is close to the $25K US mark . If it goes beyond this I'm out, that is my limit
for sure.

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post #12 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
.... JVC may have made some improvements, may have a better price and then there is the possibility of other
manufactures that can surprise us .


It will be interesting to see if JVC releases another laser true 4K at a lower price point to the Z1 this year. It would seem to stay competitive they would considering the expected vw1200, unless they don't want to play in that price sandbox.
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post #13 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
It will be interesting to see if JVC releases another laser true 4K at a lower price point to the Z1 this year. It would seem to stay competitive they would considering the expected vw1200, unless they don't want to play in that price sandbox.
A laser in the JVC RS5xx series would be a smart move . 2500 lumens even with a bit of loss in the contrast would be a perfect combo IMHO and probably not raise the price much.

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post #14 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 07:39 AM
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I think for projector technology to get the most out of the UHD benefit of HDR laser light source is necessary. The Z1/5000ES provide a very good look at what is possible and will be further improved upon as time passes, but the cost of those units limits them to many. The vw1200 will hopefully give us a good part of the reference laser projectors at a price that more of us can indulge. I'm sure it will have its warts like even the big boys have but hopefully not enough to make it an unworthy value. I'm long overdue to upgrade to 4k and this one is at least a price that more of us can attain. They can't release this one soon enough for me.
Only thing that makes me nervous about laser is that it's new. New means it will certainly go through upgrades, improvements and then there is the unknown issues that surface down the road.

I'd still like to see some lamp based stick around with reasonable improvements affordable by many. At least we know what to expect from lamp based product at this point, at the price and
performance we are seeing now, they are still certainly holding their own performance wise.

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post #15 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 07:47 AM
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This could be a real winner, if it has 18Gbps chips, DCI P3 filter and does not lose a ton of light with filter in place. Looking forward to seeing this one.
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post #16 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Only thing that makes me nervous about laser is that it's new. New means it will certainly go through upgrades, improvements and then there is the unknown issues that surface down the road.

I'd still like to see some lamp based stick around with reasonable improvements affordable by many. At least we know what to expect from lamp based product at this point, at the price and
performance we are seeing now, they are still certainly holding their own performance wise.


I think economically lamps will be around quite a while, and likely lasers in the top tier models for the near future. The noise issue for the cooling needs of the laser is problematic, to the point that one owner posted that he doesn't run the laser in high for the best HDR because of the noise, and similar issues on the Z1 have been noted. I guess we'll see how the vw1200 handles it, they should have mufflers for these rather than needing a ventilated hush box.


I think more of the UHD benefits for projectors won't be fully realized until we get RGB lasers like the one Sony is bringing to the commercial market, but that is still a long way off from the residential market, at least in the sub $20K range.
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post #17 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
I think economically lamps will be around quite a while, and likely lasers in the top tier models for the near future. The noise issue for the cooling needs of the laser is problematic, to the point that one owner posted that he doesn't run the laser in high for the best HDR because of the noise, and similar issues on the Z1 have been noted. I guess we'll see how the vw1200 handles it, they should have mufflers for these rather than needing a ventilated hush box.


I think more of the UHD benefits for projectors won't be fully realized until we get RGB lasers like the one Sony is bringing to the commercial market, but that is still a long way off from the residential market, at least in the sub $20K range.
sounds very interesting if the price is towards the low side of $20K, but if the panels still have issues, it will be like many of the 1000 and 1100 projectors many people have been greatly disappointed in.
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post #18 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
I think economically lamps will be around quite a while, and likely lasers in the top tier models for the near future. The noise issue for the cooling needs of the laser is problematic, to the point that one owner posted that he doesn't run the laser in high for the best HDR because of the noise, and similar issues on the Z1 have been noted. I guess we'll see how the vw1200 handles it, they should have mufflers for these rather than needing a ventilated hush box.


I think more of the UHD benefits for projectors won't be fully realized until we get RGB lasers like the one Sony is bringing to the commercial market, but that is still a long way off from the residential market, at least in the sub $20K range.
That's surprising to hear, I would have thought that one of the biggest advantages to the laser engine was less noise, even in high brightness mode.
It wouldn't be difficult to make it quiet, increase the surface area of the rad (not the thickness) and add more fans.
The increase in surface area allows slower fan speed.
And hopefully for such expensive machines that they take advantage of all this "quiet fan" technology and not use a 5.00 dollar off the shelf computer fan(s).

The noise would be a deal breaker for me, especially at such a high price point.
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post #19 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 08:39 AM
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That's surprising to hear, I would have thought that one of the biggest advantages to the laser engine was less noise, even in high brightness mode.
It wouldn't be difficult to make it quiet, increase the surface area of the rad (not the thickness) and add more fans.
The increase in surface area allows slower fan speed.
And hopefully for such expensive machines that they take advantage of all this "quiet fan" technology and not use a 5.00 dollar off the shelf computer fan(s).

The noise would be a deal breaker for me, especially at such a high price point.

The Z1 does have an optional vent baffle to direct air away from the lens, which may help lessen the whooshing sound from being directed towards the seating area. From my understanding the direct RGB lasers in the commercial unit Sony is working on doesn't build as much heat and needs far less cooling than the current residential phosphor laser projectors. But it will be years off before such technology is available in the residential market at less than stratospheric prices.
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That's surprising to hear, I would have thought that one of the biggest advantages to the laser engine was less noise, even in high brightness mode.
It wouldn't be difficult to make it quiet, increase the surface area of the rad (not the thickness) and add more fans.
The increase in surface area allows slower fan speed.
And hopefully for such expensive machines that they take advantage of all this "quiet fan" technology and not use a 5.00 dollar off the shelf computer fan(s).

The noise would be a deal breaker for me, especially at such a high price point.
Laser is one component , extremely hot processors are another issue, combined they make a lot of heat . One of the reasons they ( supposedly) did not put FI in the VW675 was the extreme heat caused
by the electronics that the chassis had no way to deal with . Liquid cooling is the only thing that makes sense, certainly works in the PC world on the high performance systems. Try to deal with
all this heat with fans and you end up with the problem JVC has with the RS4500 . Then again, Sony would have been wise to turn up the fans in the VW1100 with that 350 watt lamp. The heat
produced by my VW675 is excessive compared to the RS600 I owned, can't imagine how much heat was saturated within the VW1100 . Heat was bad for SXRD, trying to keep the projector quiet
caused another underlying problem IMHO. That is why the VW5000 has liquid cooling, layer # 5 of the suggested fix for panel degradation .

Laser light itself probably not the issue, the diodes necessary to run this probably are the source of heat. Just a guess, I'm sure others will confirm .

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Sony VW1100 replacement to be unveiled at IFA 2017

Quote:
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This could be a real winner, if it has 18Gbps chips, DCI P3 filter and does not lose a ton of light with filter in place. Looking forward to seeing this one.


But does the DCI P3 filter even matter? I don't know of anyone with either a Sony 5000ES or the JVC RS4500 who runs HDR with the filter in place.

No one seems to choose to give up light output to go from around 87% P3 to 100% P3. Everyone can see the light output loss, not many seem to care about the slight increase in color gamut.

But I agree, being able to achieve P3 without any loss would be great, I just don't believe it's remotely necessary.


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But does the DCI P3 filter even matter? I don't know of anyone with either a Sony 5000ES or the JVC RS4500 who runs HDR with the filter in place.

No one seems to choose to give up light output to go from around 87% P3 to 100% P3. Everyone can see the light output loss, not many seem to care about the slight increase in color gamut.

But I agree, being able to achieve P3 without any loss would be great, I just don't believe it's remotely necessary.


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It really depends on the amount of light loss as Mike points out. For instance, the eshift JVCs only lose about 10% light loss to get 99-100% P3 coverage. For those without massive screens, this is a great extra option to have. On my modest 10 foot wide 2.35:1 unity gain screen, I can easily afford the 10% light loss to gain more saturated colors. The amount of light loss on the RS4500 is obviously too much, even on my screen, that it doesn't make sense to use it. But as we've seen from the eshift JVCs it can be done a small-loss yellow notch filter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Laser is one component , extremely hot processors are another issue, combined they make a lot of heat . One of the reasons they ( supposedly) did not put FI in the VW675 was the extreme heat caused
by the electronics that the chassis had no way to deal with . Liquid cooling is the only thing that makes sense, certainly works in the PC world on the high performance systems. Try to deal with
all this heat with fans and you end up with the problem JVC has with the RS4500 . Then again, Sony would have been wise to turn up the fans in the VW1100 with that 350 watt lamp. The heat
produced by my VW675 is excessive compared to the RS600 I owned, can't imagine how much heat was saturated within the VW1100 . Heat was bad for SXRD, trying to keep the projector quiet
caused another underlying problem IMHO. That is why the VW5000 has liquid cooling, layer # 5 of the suggested fix for panel degradation .

Laser light itself probably not the issue, the diodes necessary to run this probably are the source of heat. Just a guess, I'm sure others will confirm .
I spent a fair amount of time reading up on liquid cooled computers, a number of factors are involved on how efficient a cooling system is.
Heat sink design (how well does it cover the component that needs to be cooled and what material it's made of _ cooper is the best when it comes to price)
The design of the internal fins where the coolant passes over.
Pump speed
The coolant itself (water is best, but not practical)
The size of the radiator. (thickness and surface area play a big part here as well as the design of the tubes and the matrix in-between the tubes)
How many fans and how fast they run.

The maximum amount of heat remains constant, the only thing one can do is ramp up the efficiency of the cooling system and one way is to increase the fan speed _ cheap, but a noisy way to do it.

I get the impression that if the fans are running too fast, then someone didn't put enough thought into the liquid cooling system.

The cabinets on these laser projectors are already big, another few inches in a number of directions to accommodate a bigger rad and more fans, isn't going to matter is it ?

If I had one of these projectors I would be tempted to add some external rad(s) and run them somewhere, where the heat could be dissipated more efficiently then in a warm home theatre room.
An external pump may be needed to push the extra coolant required.

Off course this would void the warranty I'm sure.
Honestly though, if it was getting that warm and someone was spending that amount of money I would expect to have external rads where a professional installer would be needed.

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post #24 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 12:37 PM
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It really depends on the amount of light loss as Mike points out. For instance, the eshift JVCs only lose about 10% light loss to get 99-100% P3 coverage. For those without massive screens, this is a great extra option to have. On my modest 10 foot wide 2.35:1 unity gain screen, I can easily afford the 10% light loss to gain more saturated colors. The amount of light loss on the RS4500 is obviously too much, even on my screen, that it doesn't make sense to use it. But as we've seen from the eshift JVCs it can be done a small-loss yellow notch filter.


Is there a reason why the yellow notch filter, which limits light loss and gives >95% P3 isn't used in the RS4500 or equivalent in the Sonys ?
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post #25 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 12:43 PM
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Sony VW1100 replacement to be unveiled at IFA 2017

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It really depends on the amount of light loss as Mike points out. For instance, the eshift JVCs only lose about 10% light loss to get 99-100% P3 coverage. For those without massive screens, this is a great extra option to have. On my modest 10 foot wide 2.35:1 unity gain screen, I can easily afford the 10% light loss to gain more saturated colors. The amount of light loss on the RS4500 is obviously too much, even on my screen, that it doesn't make sense to use it. But as we've seen from the eshift JVCs it can be done a small-loss yellow notch filter.


I agree it can be done with minimal loss, same with my RS600.

I just don't see having the filter as a necessity. No one seems to use it on the RS4500 or 5000ES.

18Gbps input - absolutely a necessity.

Until we see considerably brighter units, I find light output is much more important for HDR than the small increase in color gamut.




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post #26 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 12:47 PM
 
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Is there a reason why the yellow notch filter, which limits light loss and gives >95% P3 isn't used in the RS4500 or equivalent in the Sonys ?

In the RS4500 they chose to use a filter to achieve much more than 100% P3 and this is why there's such a substantial level of light loss. In the eshift units they chose a filter to achieve only out to P3 saturation so there's much less light loss because of it. You only get 72.9% of REC2020 with 100% P3 support, the yellow notch filter in the RS4500 achieves 82% of REC2020. This is quite a bit more and as such more light loss was needed to achieve greater color saturation. For the price, I think the RS4500 should have had two different selectable filters, one for 100% P3 support and another for greater-than-P3 support (like the one that's already inside the RS4500). This would have allowed for greater than native color gamut support without the excessive light loss the filter in the RS4500 is taking away.
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post #27 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 12:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I agree it can be done with minimal loss, same with my RS600.

I just don't see having the filter as a necessity. No one seems to use it on the RS4500 or 5000ES.

18Gbps input - absolutely a necessity.

Until we see considerably brighter units, I find light output is much more important for HDR than the small increase in color gamut.




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They aren't using it because of the light loss associated with it, not because they don't want to have more saturated colors. If it were minimal like in the eshift JVCs I think you'd be seeing a lot more people using it.
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post #28 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 01:08 PM
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It will be interesting to see if JVC releases another laser true 4K at a lower price point to the Z1 this year. It would seem to stay competitive they would considering the expected vw1200, unless they don't want to play in that price sandbox.
I doubt JVC will release a new 4k projector this year. And I remain skeptical that the new Sony laser 4K will retail for $25K. Until Sony USA actually makes an official price announcement, that's just a rumor. They may price it at $32K for all we know. I see no reason they would price it less than the VW1100, seeing as it has laser.

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post #29 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I agree it can be done with minimal loss, same with my RS600.

I just don't see having the filter as a necessity. No one seems to use it on the RS4500 or 5000ES.

18Gbps input - absolutely a necessity.

Until we see considerably brighter units, I find light output is much more important for HDR than the small increase in color gamut.

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After doing back and forth comparisons, the BT 2020 filter just didn't do enough for the picture to offset the light loss. And on my smaller screens, I could use it. Now that Jeff has calibrated my RS4500, the HDR on movies like Deadpool really looks outstanding anyway - BT2020 or not !

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post #30 of 1580 Old 05-12-2017, 01:13 PM
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Sony VW1100 replacement to be unveiled at IFA 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
They aren't using it because of the light loss associated with it, not because they don't want to have more saturated colors. If it were minimal like in the eshift JVCs I think you'd be seeing a lot more people using it.


That's what I just said. Light output for HDR is more important to everyone than the slight increase in color gamut.

An even better option, would be new laser / phosphor combo where the filter wouldn't even be needed to achieve 100% P3 or beyond.










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