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Sony VPL-VW885ES / VPL-VW760ES laser projector announced

221K views 3K replies 170 participants last post by  Archibald1 
#1 · (Edited)
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#2 ·
Yep, I may even have a good look at this one...

Hoping they have new panels inside them with no banding and posterization.

Hoping they slightly improved the contrast, but with 100% fade to blacks will be appealing, interesting to see with that enabled what the contrast will be at 1, 2 & 3% APL. The Sony's used to start pulling ahead after about 5% APL anyway vs the JVC's due to the higher ANSI, so this might be the one to get.

Laser... excellent.

High Quality Lens - Guessing is the same as the 1100ES and the 5000ES, if so, excellent! My major gripe with the current Sony's solved.

Price is very good too IMO.

As long as they have fixed the posterization and added 18gbps boards, this will be tough to look past IMO.

I wonder if the colour will be comparable to the 5000ES, if so, excellent again!
 
#10 ·
Smart move .Will be interesting to see how the Sony compares and the price point . JVC may have made some improvements, may have a better price and then there is the possibility of other
manufactures that can surprise us .

I have to move into a smaller theater next year this time so size is a factor too. I may very well have to settle on the Sony short throw option the VZ1000 but would prefer the choice other short
throw options. I don't think other short throw 4K laser options are on the table from others, we shall see .
 
#11 ·
I think the HDMI board upgrade is a guarantee as is the better optics like the 5000 . FI at 4K I have my fingers crossed as that will take more processing power
and some cooling issues to make it happen. A new chassis over the VW1100 for sure if 4K FI happens.
@RickAVManiac , this would be the machine for me at this point but only if the price is close to the $25K US mark . If it goes beyond this I'm out, that is my limit
for sure.
 
#9 ·
I think for projector technology to get the most out of the UHD benefit of HDR laser light source is necessary. The Z1/5000ES provide a very good look at what is possible and will be further improved upon as time passes, but the cost of those units limits them to many. The vw1200 will hopefully give us a good part of the reference laser projectors at a price that more of us can indulge. I'm sure it will have its warts like even the big boys have but hopefully not enough to make it an unworthy value. I'm long overdue to upgrade to 4k and this one is at least a price that more of us can attain. They can't release this one soon enough for me.
 
#14 ·
Only thing that makes me nervous about laser is that it's new. New means it will certainly go through upgrades, improvements and then there is the unknown issues that surface down the road.

I'd still like to see some lamp based stick around with reasonable improvements affordable by many. At least we know what to expect from lamp based product at this point, at the price and
performance we are seeing now, they are still certainly holding their own performance wise.
 
#15 ·
This could be a real winner, if it has 18Gbps chips, DCI P3 filter and does not lose a ton of light with filter in place. Looking forward to seeing this one.
 
#21 ·
Sony VW1100 replacement to be unveiled at IFA 2017





But does the DCI P3 filter even matter? I don't know of anyone with either a Sony 5000ES or the JVC RS4500 who runs HDR with the filter in place.

No one seems to choose to give up light output to go from around 87% P3 to 100% P3. Everyone can see the light output loss, not many seem to care about the slight increase in color gamut.

But I agree, being able to achieve P3 without any loss would be great, I just don't believe it's remotely necessary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
#41 ·
I was talking about "NEW" laser / phosphor technology.

If that's the addition of a Red laser in conjunction with the Blue or if that some new in-organic phosphor material.

I just finished watching "Hidden Figures", so I certainly don't think just because a technology like a laser / phosphor projector has been around for a few years, that means no more advancement is possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
#43 ·
I was talking about "NEW" laser / phosphor technology.

If that's the addition of a Red laser in conjunction with the Blue or if that some new in-organic phosphor material.

I just finished watching "Hidden Figures", so I certainly don't think just because a technology like a laser / phosphor projector has been around for a few years, that means no more advancement is possible.
Yes, that is how I took you to mean it. Thanks for clarifying.
 
#47 · (Edited)
NEC and Christie already have Red / Blue phosphor laser units. It's still phosphor based.

This could very well be the direction of HT projectors before we see Direct RGB.

This can certainly increased color saturation further than just blue Phosphor.


I'm not disputing any of that. I'm just saying that it isn't a laser/ phosphor enhancement, but more of a direct laser enhancement. Semantics but also what I've been saying all along. Direct laser is the way to go and anything closer to it is a step in the right direction. :)
 
#54 ·
If this projector is demoed at CEDIA 2017, I might just make the effort and attend. Would be nice to see both the 1100ES replacement and the new JVC in one setting...........................

Still loving my 1100ES, yet panel degradation is apparent and is getting long in the tooth. Hoping this new projector does not double in weight.......I'm a little worried hanging more weight on ceiling.
 
#56 ·
As long as you are attaching to the ceiling structural support/supports, you will be fine. The supports are designed to hold a lot more weight than a 90 pound projector. If you have floor above your theater, a person walking across the room, puts a lot larger load than the projector.
 
#59 · (Edited)
If Vincent notices faint banding while standing close to the screen on the Sony VPL-VZ1000ES short throw projector (which apparently the 1200ES is based on?) in his Youtube first look does that mean the VW1200ES will likely suffer from it?



Or as the Sony VW1100 replacement will use a different lens from the above Short Throw 1000ES it is not indicative either way?
 
#60 ·
If Vincent notices faint banding while standing close to the screen on the Sony VPL-VZ1000ES short throw projector (which apparently the 1200ES is based on?) in his Youtube first look does that mean the VW1200ES will likely suffer from it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLiVrU42kqE

Or as the Sony VW1100 replacement will use a different lens from the above Short Throw 1000ES it is not indicative either way?
This kind of banding is something I've seen on ALL previous Sony SXRD 4K projectors. It's no surprise at all that it's still there. This is one of the bigger complaints I have with 4K SXRD. Unfortunately it looks like they still haven't fixed this issue. :(
 
#62 ·
The fact that it's still there is disconcerting and an acceptable level is subjective. There are plenty of people sensitive to artifacts like these. JVCs native 4K panels don't have this issue at all. Kris Deering confirmed this. For the price this unit is going to be at it's a ridiculous issue to have on such an expensive projector. When JVC (and eventually) Epson have 4K panels without the problem, it's something that will make SXRD look bad by comparison. This issue with banding/posterization and the panel degradation are the two biggest flaws in an otherwise excellent 4K technology. Fix them and Sony will see more sales.
 
#67 ·
Ultimately it's very similar to JVCs CMD banding with the exception being that of course you can turn CMD off on the JVC (but then blech..IMO JVC native motion is less than adequate). Some people may find one or both issues below their level of perception.

Personally I see some occasional posterization on a Sony but IMO it is nowhere near as objectionable as CMD banding since it's my preference to have some mild frame interpolation on at all times (and this is IMO impossible on the current lamp based JVCs..the banding is too frequent).

So to me Sony posterization is a non-issue just like CMD banding is to those that don't use CMD.
 
#66 · (Edited)
ccool96 and wolfgang talked about it quite a bit actually. Chris has mentioned a firmware update helped but did not fully resolve the issue. For me that's unacceptable, for others it might be okay. Oddly enough it was mentioned in that preview of this model too. So, no, I'm not the only person who's ever talked about it. I've owned an 1000ES and an 1100ES for many months and I've had two separate 665ES units here for a few months each. While I'm not currently a Sony owner I have been in the past despite what Rick would like people to think.

Sony fanboys have tried to down play issues like this and panel degradation for years so everybody be aware.
 
#79 ·
As a side not, my images posted are from an 1100ES and Javs are from a more recent model, the 320ES. I've personally see the issue just as bad on two separate 665ES (520ES outside the US). Sony needs to fix these problems with future models. The presenter saying he still sees this issue on the pre-production unit is disconcerting to me. Between this and the possibility of panel degradation are a non starter for me. Sony needs to come out of the dark and talk to us publicly about what they've done to stop the possibility of panel degradation. I would also really need them to fix the issue in the images above. It really holds back the otherwise stellar potential for higher image quality especially as it relates to image sharpness. But I suspect by the time they fix it, Epson and JVC will have their own cheaper native 4K units out. If Sony can fix these two issues and get contrast a bit higher, I would also consider owning one. I do think Sony excels in a few areas where the JVCs fall behind.
 
#80 ·
Try taking the same pictures with a current VW675 or the VW5000 and then VW1200 when it shows up. My guess the software/processing has been updated I have none of the issues you are posting, I'd see that from the next street let alone the seat. lol .


I don't think this was pervasive on all previous models either or you wouldn't have the comments from every corner of the planet discussing the superior image of the Sony.
If people were seeing this silliness nothing would ever have left the shelf. What a joke .


What I do see switching from the RS600 to the VW675 is detail , stability and richness that only a true 4K provides and it's not an illusion . What you show is not in that picture that I can guarantee . :D
 
#82 ·
I just take the time to check the screenshots of Oblivion vs the real movie. On my Sony 675, with my HTPC (madvr) both side by side, I can say that my 675 is at least 50% better than the screenshots in this thread. But I have to admit I can see what you guy are talking about.

I also look at other movie like Allied and Draft Day and I can report that for those movies my 675 is 90% better than the screenshots. On those 2 movies, I can even say it's not a problem at all. Even very close to the screen.

But granted in Oblivion, I can see some people complain if sitting close to a very big screen.

Also, since it's a non issues on some movies, it seem to be content related in a way or another. I will do more test and report back.
 
#84 ·
I just take the time to check the screenshots of Oblivion vs the real movie. On my Sony 675, with my HTPC (madvr) both side by side, I can say that my 675 is at least 50% better than the screenshots in this thread. But I have to admit I can see what you guy are talking about.

I also look at other movie like Allied and Draft Day and I can report that for those movies my 675 is 90% better than the screenshots. On those 2 movies, I can even say it's not a problem at all. Even very close to the screen.

But granted in Oblivion, I can see some people complain if sitting close to a very big screen.

Also, since it's a non issues on some movies, it seem to be content related in a way or another. I will do more test and report back.
Thanks for confirming the issue is still there. I think we can put that dispute to rest now, the posterization still exists on the newest Sony models.

And yes, I sit one screen width from my screen, barely 3m, I see every single artefact on the screen.

Lets appreciate that there are those that find it acceptable and those that do not for whatever reason.

I can tell you a couple things for certain.

My next projector will be native 4K once again.

It will not have ANY internal lens reflections.

The lens will need to exceed the one in my X9500 right now at the very least.

No posterization or banding accepted whatsoever.

100% P3 at over 2000 lumens.

Laser preferred but not overly needed if another product meets the needs above.
 
#87 ·
@Javs

No doubt about the banding in the Sony shots there.
Was that banding present in every mode that Bandiyka's Sony had?

I can mitigate/obscure banding on the 1000es in either Cinema1 or DCI mode(not available on all Sonys) but at the expense of some contrast and light.

Be nice if we were all in one room together so we could hash this one out...pixel by pixel:)
 

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#88 · (Edited)
Your photos all seem to be washed out quite a bit and not completely in focus. You really need a nice digital camera and tripod to set the proper exposure time/ISO and Fstop of the lens, but also to nail down the focus so we can actually see what's going on. Do you see how much more detailed Javs and Zombie's photos are? What camera are you using? Is there anyway you can take some new photos? I've seen Javs recommend setting ISO really low at 100 and going with an exposure time as long as your camera can go. I've seen him recommend 1.3 seconds for an ISO of 100 and he recommends an f stop of around 5.6 for the sharpest images.
 
#97 ·
Using a Sony Errikson C510.
Yeah I know it's an outdated pile of crap but it does the basics for day to day stuff:)
In terms of visual representation with regards to the pics I have shown in this topic(and others)..... that is the best I can contribute at the moment.
Will upgrade soon(yeah i know I said that before too).

In terms of what I am seeing with my own eyes compared to that screen capture that Zombie took.......there is some difference.
It's weird.....I can maybe see the foundations of the "posterization patterns" that are present on Zombie's foto.......but they are nowhere near as pronounced.

It's almost like his screen capture has been post manipulated to emphasize the posterization(which is fine).
His shot also seems monochromatic in appearance and that is definitely not the way it looks in person. There is way more color saturation and delineation too with my projected image.

The detail that you are attributing to the corresponding Oblivion JVC shot(also taken by Zombie) are present on the 1000es's rendition that I see on my screen(1.0 matte reference white).
 
#91 ·
I think the posterization is just inherent in the way Sony decides to process the image. I think that you may see some of the banding go away however. It is sad that either issues are there, but ymmv in how much it bothers you. For me the banding it a little more noticeable that the posterization in my setup. To me these are not bad enough to be deal breakers. However, I think Sony needs to get a handle on uniformity and reliability issues. My unit is good but I could see uniformity being a deal breaker for me. I would rather not enter a panel lottery for my next purchase.
 
#92 · (Edited)
The explanation I was given, which came from someone higher up at Sony EU, was that the issue stems from a hardware limitation. More specifically the device that interfaces with with the video processing and feeds the actual SXRD panel information; the "panel driver". When there is a ton of chroma/luminace information in a frame it seems to have an issue feeding all that information on a per pixel basis and as such you end up with the banding and posterizaion seen on screen. With more "simple" images and video that has far less chroma/luminance gradations the atrifact is far less apparent on screen. It almost seems like some kind of bandwidth problem where it can't feed the panel enough information. Whether or not some of the video processing is at fault (I personally doubt it's at fault as none of the 1080p SXRD units have this issue and Sony is usually very good when it comes with video processing), wholly the panel driver, or partly due to the panel itself in it's design on how it receives data, who knows (probably on the SXRD engineers themselves) but I hope they figure out a solution soon. Despite what some might say or think, I do want Sony to fix the problem as I think their projectors (sans panel degradation issues) offer an amazing video quality potential and I would like to be able to consider owning one of their projectors in the near future when I pick up my first "full time" 4K HDR projector.

Since I've been told it's a hardware issue, my guess is they would need a revised .74" SXRD panel and panel driver to fix the solution. Whether or not Sony wants to invest in such new hardware I don't know. It is possible that this issue becomes more widely known when/if Epson and JVC have their native 4K panels without this issue. From my direct contact with Kris Deering it seems the new .69" DiLA 4K panels do not suffer from the same issue as he's taken a close look for me and confirmed it. We'll see what Epson comes up with. But if both of these companies have their own 4K panel without this problem it may force Sony to fix the issue as I suspect more and more pro-reviews might talk about it as a con when comparing native 4K technologies in the front projection world.
 
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