Vivitek HK2299 4K - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Vivitek HK2299 4K

According to media reports, Vivitek exhibited the 4K HK2299 Home Theater Projector at the Orlando InfoComm 2017. It claims supuuort for native 4k contents, and is to be retailed at $3490/-.

Does anyone have additional infomation?
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post #2 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 05:06 AM
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Only this:




Maybe it's a typo and it's supposed to be the HK2288, that's still listed as "new" on Vivitek's website: https://www.vivitekusa.com/category/Home-Theater-CEDIA/


Or it's the special 3D capable version (LOL).

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post #3 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 06:35 AM
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Looks like no horizontal lens shift and no lens memory. That will cut it from consideration for many.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Looks like no horizontal lens shift and no lens memory. That will cut it from consideration for many.
One more reason for Vivitek to make the user manuals available online for their UHD projectors.

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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Looks like no horizontal lens shift and no lens memory. That will cut it from consideration for many.
I'm not seeing these features on any of these new DLPs...is it harder to do for some reason compared to LCD variants?
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post #6 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I'm not seeing these features on any of these new DLPs...is it harder to do for some reason compared to LCD variants?
I don't think so.

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post #7 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I'm not seeing these features on any of these new DLPs...is it harder to do for some reason compared to LCD variants?
Nope it just makes the lens and hence the projector significantly more expensive.

DLP manufacturers are trying to hit low price points to make 4k uhd much more affordable and these are the types of sacrifices that may need to happen to do so. Most people can horizontally center their PJ so it is not a critical feature to most.
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post #8 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 07:42 AM
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Especially since we've established, thanks to Dave Harper, that we don't need a better lens. All the LCoS and 3LCD manufacturers can do it with decent, cost efficient lenses, why can't the DLP manufacturers? I won't buy a unit that can't be shelf mounted easily because I already have shelves mounted in both projector rooms, and ceiling mounts are a hassle.
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Sadly that's also a dealbreaker for me too. I need the vertical lens shift so that I don't get blinded by the projector beam while walking to my couch, as I like my image centered as close to eye level as possible. My only other solution would be for a UST laser model but I have an a-lens which is collecting dust and I want to at least try it out (for a lumens boost in HDR more than anything else).
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post #10 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 08:45 AM
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@RLBURNSIDE

We may not have the manuals for the Vivitek's yet, but we do have that information:

Wide 1.5x zoom range and vertical lens shift for greater installation convenience and flexibility

But will the Viviteks feature good frame interpolation?

Advanced video processor for fluid video streaming and 12-bit programmable RGB colour adjustments

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Especially since we've established, thanks to Dave Harper, that we don't need a better lens. All the LCoS and 3LCD manufacturers can do it with decent, cost efficient lenses, why can't the DLP manufacturers? I won't buy a unit that can't be shelf mounted easily because I already have shelves mounted in both projector rooms, and ceiling mounts are a hassle.
I would not accept that as gospel.

Have used shelf and ceiling mounts for years. My main projector is ceiling mounted in my dedicated room and right below it I have a shelf for secondary and demo projectors. I have found it is much easier to set up a ceiling mount projector, if using a good mount. If comparing to a cheap ceiling mount, I would probably pick the shelf mount.

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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Sadly that's also a dealbreaker for me too. I need the vertical lens shift so that I don't get blinded by the projector beam while walking to my couch, as I like my image centered as close to eye level as possible. My only other solution would be for a UST laser model but I have an a-lens which is collecting dust and I want to at least try it out (for a lumens boost in HDR more than anything else).
It has vertical. It does not have horizontal, nor lens memory.

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post #13 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Especially since we've established, thanks to Dave Harper, that we don't need a better lens. All the LCoS and 3LCD manufacturers can do it with decent, cost efficient lenses, why can't the DLP manufacturers? I won't buy a unit that can't be shelf mounted easily because I already have shelves mounted in both projector rooms, and ceiling mounts are a hassle.
The cheapest LCD/Lcos 4k uhd projector with horizontal lens shift is $8000. Compare that to the HK2288 at $3499. Thus reducing horizontal lens shift travel and hence lens cost is one way DLP manufacturers can get to that price point which is $4500 less, as it is an infrequently critical feature for consumers.
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post #14 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 10:02 AM
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There are plenty eShift projectors with lens shift that are not near that cost. The ONLY native 4K projector under $10K is the Sony 365ES. All others are a form of shifting technology regardless of what is on the screen.

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When the DLP projectors have vertical lens shift, do they allow you to mount the projector on a drop so the lens is below the top of the screen? I shoot off of a 2.5' drop and that seems to rule out most of these for me.
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post #16 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 10:47 AM
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There are plenty eShift projectors with lens shift that are not near that cost. The ONLY native 4K projector under $10K is the Sony 365ES. All others are a form of shifting technology regardless of what is on the screen.
Both your statement and my statement are correct.

I am using 4K UHD as defined by the CE industry. Note I did not say native 4k.
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post #17 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 03:01 PM
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Especially since we've established, thanks to Dave Harper, that we don't need a better lens.
It is unfortunate that you have been misinformed and that this misinformation has spread to another thread on the AVScience forum. You would have to believe that with totally incoherent light just sending native 2.7k frames would require just as good a lens as sending two native 2.7k eShift sub-frames through the lens at the same time, in order to believe that all of Dave's expert's positions are true. I doubt you believe those require the same quality of lens, but that is what you would have to believe to think we had established that we don't need a better lens for eShift than not, since Dave's expert said with totally incoherent light an eShift projector with both sub-frames sent at different times requires just as good a lens as if they were sent at the same time and a native projector requires just as good a lens as an eShift projector with both sub-frames sent at different times (when all native resolutions and chip sizes are the same).

I have put a response in the dedicated thread for this subject matter.

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post #18 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 03:29 PM
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I'm asking nicely (the first time), please keep the discussion focused on the Vivitek projector. If we get more complaints, posts will be deleted etc.

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post #19 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 04:31 PM
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Looks like no horizontal lens shift and no lens memory. That will cut it from consideration for many.
No power zoom / focus / lens shift and lens memory, no dice. I'm also not going back to no power steering and no power brakes.
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post #20 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
The cheapest LCD/Lcos 4k uhd projector with horizontal lens shift is $8000. Compare that to the HK2288 at $3499. Thus reducing horizontal lens shift travel and hence lens cost is one way DLP manufacturers can get to that price point which is $4500 less, as it is an infrequently critical feature for consumers.
I should be clear. I don't care about horizontal lens shift, but I want a centered lens and 50~60% vertical shift.
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post #21 of 192 Old 06-21-2017, 10:07 PM
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I should be clear. I don't care about horizontal lens shift, but I want a centered lens and 50~60% vertical shift.
Then you will want to wait for the BenQ W11500 scheduled for this fall:

Vertical: ± 65% / Horizontal: ± 27%

.. Or if you want solid state the X12500
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Problem is they will cost as much or more than a JVC that will blow them away overall.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CollectedDust View Post
When the DLP projectors have vertical lens shift, do they allow you to mount the projector on a drop so the lens is below the top of the screen? I shoot off of a 2.5' drop and that seems to rule out most of these for me.

From what I've been able to research thus far, that will not be possible with the Acer H7850 and V7850 and the Optomas UHD 550X/60/65 and UHZ 65, the center of the lens with these has to be on the same horizontal level as the top edge of your projection image or further above, but not below!


As for other UHD projectors I can only advise to read the user manuals, at this stage a lens shift range of only 15% most likely suggests the aforementioned, but if you get something like 60% that could be an indicator that your projection lens can hang lower than the top edge of your projection image.

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Nope it just makes the lens and hence the projector significantly more expensive.

DLP manufacturers are trying to hit low price points to make 4k uhd much more affordable and these are the types of sacrifices that may need to happen to do so. Most people can horizontally center their PJ so it is not a critical feature to most.
Still, it's interesting how Epson can incorporate plenty of lens shift (60%V 32%H) in a $1299 MSRP projector.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...tm?page=Set-Up

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Still, it's interesting how Epson can incorporate plenty of lens shift (60%V 32%H) in a $1299 MSRP projector.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...tm?page=Set-Up
And this $1299 projector is as sharp as the DLP 4k projectors? Because I know the 5040UB and Ls10500 are tremendously less sharp with more aberrations, and those are their flagship projectors. The lens quality is one area I'm less impressed with Epson than JVC, for instance.

The more sharp a lens is with least artifacts, the more expensive it is. And shift significantly raises the price as well. You could have a lens in a $1299 pj that does a wide shift range but it will likely be a junky lens compared to a similarly priced lens without shift.

Since lens is one thing DLP manufacturers can control to increase sharpness and contrast whole reducing artifacts, it's wise to invest in an excellent lens, especially when a weak lens with blurriness and artifacts will spoil the 4k effect. And an excellent lens with shift is a lot more expensive than one without.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
And this $1299 projector is as sharp as the DLP 4k projectors? Because I know the 5040UB and Ls10500 are tremendously less sharp with more aberrations, and those are their flagship projectors. The lens quality is one area I'm less impressed with Epson than JVC, for instance.

The more sharp a lens is with least artifacts, the more expensive it is. And shift significantly raises the price as well. You could have a lens in a $1299 pj that does a wide shift range but it will likely be a junky lens compared to a similarly priced lens without shift.

Since lens is one thing DLP manufacturers can control to increase sharpness and contrast whole reducing artifacts, it's wise to invest in an excellent lens, especially when a weak lens with blurriness and artifacts will spoil the 4k effect. And an excellent lens with shift is a lot more expensive than one without.
I think his response was in regards to DLP not providing much lens shift as a cost saving method, yet Epson is able to do so on even cheaper projectors.
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I think his response was in regards to DLP not providing much lens shift as a cost saving method, yet Epson is able to do so on even cheaper projectors.
IIRC Epson is the manufacturer of both the LCD display elements and the projectors while DLP manufacturers have to buy the DLP DMDs from Texas Instruments exclusively, so there are two parties involved with DLP devices that want to earn money, but I don't know the details.

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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
And this $1299 projector is as sharp as the DLP 4k projectors? Because I know the 5040UB and Ls10500 are tremendously less sharp with more aberrations, and those are their flagship projectors. The lens quality is one area I'm less impressed with Epson than JVC, for instance.

The more sharp a lens is with least artifacts, the more expensive it is. And shift significantly raises the price as well. You could have a lens in a $1299 pj that does a wide shift range but it will likely be a junky lens compared to a similarly priced lens without shift.

Since lens is one thing DLP manufacturers can control to increase sharpness and contrast whole reducing artifacts, it's wise to invest in an excellent lens, especially when a weak lens with blurriness and artifacts will spoil the 4k effect. And an excellent lens with shift is a lot more expensive than one without.
Just a few thoughts...

The JVC RS420 (with lens shift) has a good lens by most standards and it has a $3,999.95 MSRP and very close price to the Vivitek. We're seeing much higher priced DLPs still with no lens shift (or just a tad of vertical i.e, 10%). I used to own the LS10000 and it still had a good lens even if not as good as JVC's, but I bet it's on par with these cheap "4K" DLPs. I suspect it's more of a DLP market base with primary users having 16x9 screens (who do a lot of gaming & TV versus mostly scope films), and/or maybe something where there is some kind of issue (or more difficulty) with the lens shift implementation as we've seen very little lens shifting for years in most DLPs. I recall Sharp made a DLP with shift and lens memories.

And do we know how "excellent" these lenses actually are in these relatively low cost "4K" DLPs? As we all know, a good lens is not cheap whether we are talking cameras, telescopes, or anything else.

However, I do think DLP technology actually allows manufacturers to get away with a lesser lens quality compared to LCD variants in order to maintain good sharpness. I think DLP has some inherent advantages here (and uniformity that matter). Heck, I saw a $750 Benq HT2050 and was impressed with its natural sharpness. It sort of shocked me to be honest. I thought for the money, the lens was pretty good although there was more chromatic aberration with the lens than I've ever seen on the LS10000 or any JVC at $4000+.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Just a few thoughts...

The JVC RS420 (with lens shift) has a good lens by most standards and it has a $3,999.95 MSRP and very close price to the Vivitek. We're seeing much higher priced DLPs still with no lens shift (or just a tad of vertical i.e, 10%). I used to own the LS10000 and it still had a good lens even if not as good as JVC's, but I bet it's on par with these cheap "4K" DLPs. I suspect it's more of a DLP market base with primary users having 16x9 screens (who do a lot of gaming & TV versus mostly scope films), and/or maybe something where there is some kind of issue (or more difficulty) with the lens shift implementation as we've seen very little lens shifting for years in most DLPs. I recall Sharp made a DLP with shift and lens memories.

And do we know how "excellent" these lenses actually are in these relatively low cost "4K" DLPs? As we all know, a good lens is not cheap whether we are talking cameras, telescopes, or anything else.

However, I do think DLP technology actually allows manufacturers to get away with a lesser lens quality compared to LCD variants in order to maintain good sharpness. I think DLP has some inherent advantages here (and uniformity that matter). Heck, I saw a $750 Benq HT2050 and was impressed with its natural sharpness. It sort of shocked me to be honest. I thought for the money, the lens was pretty good although there was more chromatic aberration with the lens than I've ever seen on the LS10000 or any JVC at $4000+.
Most of the lower cost DLP's use a small lens with limited throw. This saves them money, but also reduces the amount of lens shift that is possible. Looks like these new XPR DLP's are following that same path with regards to the lens.

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post #30 of 192 Old 06-23-2017, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Just a few thoughts...

The JVC RS420 (with lens shift) has a good lens by most standards and it has a $3,999.95 MSRP and very close price to the Vivitek. We're seeing much higher priced DLPs still with no lens shift (or just a tad of vertical i.e, 10%). I used to own the LS10000 and it still had a good lens even if not as good as JVC's, but I bet it's on par with these cheap "4K" DLPs. I suspect it's more of a DLP market base with primary users having 16x9 screens (who do a lot of gaming & TV versus mostly scope films), and/or maybe something where there is some kind of issue (or more difficulty) with the lens shift implementation as we've seen very little lens shifting for years in most DLPs. I recall Sharp made a DLP with shift and lens memories.

And do we know how "excellent" these lenses actually are in these relatively low cost "4K" DLPs? As we all know, a good lens is not cheap whether we are talking cameras, telescopes, or anything else.

However, I do think DLP technology actually allows manufacturers to get away with a lesser lens quality compared to LCD variants in order to maintain good sharpness. I think DLP has some inherent advantages here (and uniformity that matter). Heck, I saw a $750 Benq HT2050 and was impressed with its natural sharpness. It sort of shocked me to be honest. I thought for the money, the lens was pretty good although there was more chromatic aberration with the lens than I've ever seen on the LS10000 or any JVC at $4000+.
Initial reports of the UHD60/UHD65 indicate it can display 4k video as sharp as the native 4k $10k Sonys (less artifacts too from comparisons I've seen) so I'd say that is quite the accomplishment for a $2k projector. Using a lens with less shift helped allow that happen for such a low price.

For 4k uhd dlp you need to spend about $4k to get more shift range while retaining that pristine sharpness.

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