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post #1 of 84 Old 07-22-2017, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Projector That compares to OLED 4K?

Hey everyone I'm brand new to the home theater game as far as projectors go. I currently have 2 OLED tv's E6 and B6. Is there any 4k projector that will compare to OLED quality for a decent price ? I'm currently helping my parents build a new theatre. Thank you!

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post #2 of 84 Old 07-23-2017, 09:03 AM
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What will be budget be for the projector plus screen.


Provide a description of the home theater, including::
  1. Will there full light control and will the viewing be done in total darkness or with some room lighting?
  2. What is the room size and what will the viewing distance be?
  3. Will the walls, ceiling, floor be a dark color or a lighter color (near white)?
  4. What size screen is being considered?
  5. What are the constraints on where the projector can be mounted (e.g., projector-to-screen throw distance)?
  6. Will this setup be used for viewing movies, sports TV programs, playing video games, etc.?
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post #3 of 84 Old 07-23-2017, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
What will be budget be for the projector plus screen.


Provide a description of the home theater, including::
  1. Will there full light control and will the viewing be done in total darkness or with some room lighting?
  2. What is the room size and what will the viewing distance be?
  3. Will the walls, ceiling, floor be a dark color or a lighter color (near white)?
  4. What size screen is being considered?
  5. What are the constraints on where the projector can be mounted (e.g., projector-to-screen throw distance)?
  6. Will this setup be used for viewing movies, sports TV programs, playing video games, etc.?
Hey thank you for your reply!

Here is what I am thinking for the home theater and I will post a picture of the room below and a drawing of the dimensions since it is not exactly square. It's basically a 23x14 room.

Budget for the projector $10k or under and Budget for the screen $2k or under (whatever is the best for the money.. I'm a newbie so I have no idea.. just trying to help my parents build a great movie room).

1) There will be full light control. As you can see in the below picture, there are dimming circular lights around the ceiling. There will be slight room lighting because there is a window and it has blackout curtains, but 95% dark.
2) The room size is basically 23x14 room but is not exactly square. Please see below diagram that I sketched. The actual photo of the room below is not the entire room and is just part of it.
Viewing Distance from screen 14 feet first row and 18 feet for the second row of seating.
3) The walls will be flat black, black blackout curtains, hopefully a black projector screen, the carpet is currently a standard tan I believe and I don't think we will do anything with the carpet, and the ceiling is standard white.
4) What screen size would you recommend for this size room? The projector will be mounted 14 ft from the projector approximately (if you can see in the picture, it is where the wall cuts off towards the back).
5) Please see above for the projector placement.
6) This will just be a movie room to play 4K UHD blu-rays and standard blu-rays off of an Oppo 4K player.

Any help would be greatly appreciated since I'm trying to help my parents build this movie room.

Thank you!

EDIT pictures here:



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post #4 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 12:08 AM
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First, to set expectations there are no projectors under $10k that compare to a 4k uhd OLED tv. You'd have to triple your projector budget at the minimum, and even then it still won't be as good as an OLED TV for a number of reasons. But, OLED TVs aren't 120"+ like projectors at a reasonable price, so you are giving up some quality for size.

I'd recommend a laser projector since your parents probably don't want the hassle of having to change bulbs, bulbs dimming, bulbs exploding if you don't replace them timely, etc.

Under 10k, your best right now for your parents is likely the Epson LS10500 laser projector. This projector is only native 1080p, but out of the box it also supports 4k input, HDR10, DCI-P3 and has a 4k enhancement pixelshifting mode that removes the 1080p pixel grid. It also has a number of convenience features they would likely appreciate. Next, combine this with a Stuart StudioTek 130 screen of 120"-140" size, I'd make it as big as you can in this range while still being centered in front of the viewing position and having room for speakers on sides. Finally, paint the ceiling flat black.

Also note in 2 months will be the CEDIA convention where all the projector manufacturers announce new models, and there will likely be new Laser models announced at that time.
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post #5 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
First, to set expectations there are no projectors under $10k that compare to a 4k uhd OLED tv. You'd have to triple your projector budget at the minimum, and even then it still won't be as good as an OLED TV for a number of reasons. But, OLED TVs aren't 120"+ like projectors at a reasonable price, so you are giving up some quality for size.

I'd recommend a laser projector since your parents probably don't want the hassle of having to change bulbs, bulbs dimming, bulbs exploding if you don't replace them timely, etc.

Under 10k, your best right now for your parents is likely the Epson LS10500 laser projector. This projector is only native 1080p, but out of the box it also supports 4k input, HDR10, DCI-P3 and has a 4k enhancement pixelshifting mode that removes the 1080p pixel grid. It also has a number of convenience features they would likely appreciate. Next, combine this with a Stuart StudioTek 130 screen of 120"-140" size, I'd make it as big as you can in this range while still being centered in front of the viewing position and having room for speakers on sides. Finally, paint the ceiling flat black.

Also note in 2 months will be the CEDIA convention where all the projector manufacturers announce new models, and there will likely be new Laser models announced at that time.

The only area where no projector can match an OLED is with regards to black level reproduction.
But there is a hell a of a lot more going on with regards to the integrity of an image than just contrast.

I have eye-balled all 3 major 4K OLEDs(Sony,Panasonic and LG) up close and pixel peeped them until I was blue in the face.
As an owner of the Sony 1000es native 4K projector(complemented with an ISCO 1.25 anamorphic lens) I can tell you categorically that I would never trade in any PJ(in the 5-10k range or higher) for these TVs.

Image processing on the LG OLEDs is pretty shocking......sure you get wonderful blacks.....but you get digital noise,exacerbated grain levels(for film stock based material), color banding,motion judder and even posterization(very pronounced in HDR mode). The respective Panasonic and Sony OLEDs image processing capabilities are better than the LG's , but even they are not immune to the same discrepancies.

I have not seen the Epson laser PJ in person so cannot comment in a personal capacity.
But my assumption would be that it would provide an image that is much more "cinematic" than any of the OLEDs in question.
Right off the bat you will have greater immersion (at the expense of some contrast and perceived sharpness).

Even though there are disagreements within the PJ community(Sony Vs Epson Vs JVC Vs Optoma ect)......one thing all PJ fans will agree on is that bigger is better
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post #6 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
The only area where no projector can match an OLED is with regards to black level reproduction.
But there is a hell a of a lot more going on with regards to the integrity of an image than just contrast.

I have eye-balled all 3 major 4K OLEDs(Sony,Panasonic and LG) up close and pixel peeped them until I was blue in the face.
As an owner of the Sony 1000es native 4K projector(complemented with an ISCO 1.25 anamorphic lens) I can tell you categorically that I would never trade in any PJ(in the 5-10k range or higher) for these TVs.

Image processing on the LG OLEDs is pretty shocking......sure you get wonderful blacks.....but you get digital noise,exacerbated grain levels(for film stock based material), color banding,motion judder and even posterization(very pronounced in HDR mode). The respective Panasonic and Sony OLEDs image processing capabilities are better than the LG's , but even they are not immune to the same discrepancies.

I have not seen the Epson laser PJ in person so cannot comment in a personal capacity.
But my assumption would be that it would provide an image that is much more "cinematic" than any of the OLEDs in question.
Right off the bat you will have greater immersion (at the expense of some contrast and perceived sharpness).

Even though there are disagreements within the PJ community(Sony Vs Epson Vs JVC Vs Optoma ect)......one thing all PJ fans will agree on is that bigger is better
Damn straight ! Even a 65" TV is postage stamp sized.

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post #7 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 10:37 AM
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Damn straight ! Even a 65" TV is postage stamp sized.
I totally agree with this, I struggle with the 70" TV I have in my living room when I have 120" in the theater room.

But just as recent as two days ago, I was talking to someone about the benefits of immersion of a larger screen over OLED's positive qualities, and this person simply could not agree to the idea that immersion of a larger screen played a significant role in picture quality.

Thus, when people say "OLED quality" I try to set expectations that projectors are simply different and can't match several aspects of OLED quality. However, I personally feel much larger size is of greater benefit than OLED's quality improvement, and I have always felt this way about size vs quality. Though it appears not all do.
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post #8 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 11:43 AM
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While the Epson LS10500 is very good projector, I would suggest the JVC DLA-RS620 or the very similar but less expensive DLA-RS520 models. These projectors produce very high contrast with very deep blacks, with closer to OLED performance than the Epson or Sony projectors. While not a native 4K projector, with its pixel shifting technique (basically the same as what Epson is doing), the on-screen resolution is better than 1080p but just a little short of full 4K (its not really by much with real world 4K/UHD video sources). As for a screen suggestion I would look at a Stewart fixed frame screen (such as their Deluxe WallScreen) perhaps in a "scope" format (e.g. 2:35:1 aspect ratio) if the home theater will be used mainly for viewing movies. In any case, I suggest using a matte white fabric. In Stewart's regular product line that would mean their excellent StudioTek 100 (gain 1.0) or their StudioTek 130 (gain 1.3) fabric and a screen size in the range approx.110" to 125" wide. If you go with a standard 16 x 9 aspect ratio screen this means one with a diagonal size of approx. 125" to 140" or for a ."scope" screen with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio this would mean a diagonal size of approx. 120" to 135" Stewart also offers a less expensive Cima series of screens with their Neve screen material (gain 1.1) that are also very good and is offered only in certain fixed sizes. See below for your limitations on the max. screen size.


The JVC projectors have a lens with a throw ratio of 1.4:1 up to 2.8:1 (a 2x zoom). This means the minimum throw distance required from the front of the projector's lens to the screen is 1.4 times the screen width and thus for a 125 inch wide screen the minimum throw distance is 125 x 1.4 = 175 inches or 14.58 feet. So you will need to get accurate measurements for the projector mounting options and remember the throw distance is from the front of the projector's lens and you will need to allow around 2 feet behind that for the projector itself and for ventilation behind the projector. So in your case your max. screen size may very well be limited by the constraints on projector mounting location. Also allow a few extra inches of throw distance as there can be some small variations from projector-to-projector (true for any brand of projector).


I would suggest adding a quality Ultra HD Blu-ray player such an Oppo UDP203 or for a lower price the Sony UDP-X800.


If the projector is to be ceiling mounted I would suggest a mount from the manufacturer Chief.


Also I would suggest the AV Science store as a great source for these products. I see Craig Peer posted above and I suggest you contact him for prices and advice - 877-823-4452 ext 106 -- store link: https://avscience.com/


Some links of interest:


http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL102474
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/cim...art-filmscreen
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/ste...llscreen-(sndq)
http://www.projectorreviews.com/stew...screen-review/
https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/
https://www.sony.com/electronics/blu...ayers/ubp-x800

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post #9 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
While the Epson LS10500 is very good projector, I would suggest the JVC DLA-RS620 or the very similar but less expensive DLA-RS520 models. These projectors produce very high contrast with very deep blacks, with closer to OLED performance than the Epson or Sony projectors. While not a native 4K projector, with its pixel shifting technique (basically the same as what Epson is doing), the on-screen resolution is better than 1080p but just a little short of full 4K (its not really by much with real world 4K/UHD video sources). As for a screen suggestion I would look at a Stewart fixed frame screen (such as their Deluxe WallScreen) perhaps in a "scope" format (e.g. 2:35:1 aspect ratio) if the home theater will be used mainly for viewing movies. In any case, I suggest using a matte white fabric. In Stewart's regular product line that would mean their excellent StudioTek 100 (gain 1.0) or their StudioTek 130 (gain 1.3) fabric and a screen size in the range approx.110" to 125" wide. If you go with a standard 16 x 9 aspect ratio screen this means one with a diagonal size of approx. 125" to 140" or for a ."scope" screen with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio this would mean a diagonal size of approx. 120" to 135" Stewart also offers a less expensive Cima series of screens with their Neve screen material (gain 1.1) that are also very good and is offered only in certain fixed sizes. See below for your limitations on the max. screen size.


The JVC projectors have a lens with a throw ratio of 1.4:1 up to 2.8:1 (a 2x zoom). This means the minimum throw distance required from the front of the projector's lens to the screen is 1.4 times the screen width and thus for a 125 inch wide screen the minimum throw distance is 125 x 1.4 = 175 inches or 14.58 feet. So you will need to get accurate measurements for the projector mounting options and remember the throw distance is from the front of the projector's lens and you will need to allow around 2 feet behind that for the projector itself and for ventilation behind the projector. So in your case your max. screen size may very well be limited by the constraints on projector mounting location. Also allow a few extra inches of throw distance as there can be some small variations from projector-to-projector (true for any brand of projector).


I would suggest adding a quality Ultra HD Blu-ray player such an Oppo UDP203 or for a lower price the Sony UDP-X800.


If the projector is to be ceiling mounted I would suggest a mount from the manufacturer Chief.


Also I would suggest the AV Science store as a great source for these products. I see Craig Peer posted above and I suggest you contact him for prices and advice - 877-823-4452 ext 106 -- store link: https://avscience.com/


Some links of interest:


http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL102474
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/cim...art-filmscreen
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/ste...llscreen-(sndq)
http://www.projectorreviews.com/stew...screen-review/
https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/
https://www.sony.com/electronics/blu...ayers/ubp-x800
Excellent, excellent advice.
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post #10 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 09:24 PM
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If you want to get as close to OLED blacks as you can you really don't have any choice other than a JVC 520/620.

But personally I don't think chasing contrast after a certain point is reached is the be all end all of picture quality.
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post #11 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
If you want to get as close to OLED blacks as you can you really don't have any choice other than a JVC 520/620.

But personally I don't think chasing contrast after a certain point is reached is the be all end all of picture quality.
The best JVC you have seen is what, the 420? And you also said you were barely hitting 20k:1 IIRC.

Seeing proper 100k+ Native is a different story all together, before you even get into the dynamic iris multipliers.

Agree that after true 100k:1 native and good DI, there is not too much more room for improvement right now. Pair that with a laser engine that can fully shut off on Fade to black, thats a winner.

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post #12 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 10:26 PM
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The best JVC you have seen is what, the 420? And you also said you were barely hitting 20k:1 IIRC.

Seeing proper 100k+ Native is a different story all together, before you even get into the dynamic iris multipliers.

Agree that after true 100k:1 native and good DI, there is not too much more room for improvement right now. Pair that with a laser engine that can fully shut off on Fade to black, thats a winner.
Correct. A 420. And I was only getting around 10k:1. Not far from what Projection Dream was measuring for native on a RS400 (http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dla-x5000-review-projector/).

And I never felt like it lacked contrast. It looked pretty good...until things started moving...

How did we ever enjoy any display before OLED and JVC came along??? It was the dark ages I guess but without darkness!

Hell even JVCs fans are coming around regarding what is sufficient contrast once the 4500 was released. Suddenly ridiculous numbers weren't so important anymore...
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post #13 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 10:30 PM
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Correct. A 420. And I was only getting around 10k:1. Not far from what Projection Dream was measuring for native on a RS400 (http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dl...iew-projector/).

And I never felt like it lacked contrast. It looked pretty good...until things started moving...

How did we ever enjoy any display before OLED and JVC came along??? It was the dark ages I guess but without darkness!

Hell even JVCs fans are coming around regarding what is sufficient contrast once the 4500 was released. Suddenly ridiculous numbers weren't so important anymore...
Well, we had plasmas before OLED, those were quite good. Better than OLED to be honest as far as I am concerned. I will take the last gen Panasonic Plasma over the new OLEDs any day if it could have been had in 4K.
People with the 4500 are getting phenomenal fade to blacks with the laser modulation and very high DI multipliers so it really increases that base number.
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post #14 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 10:40 PM
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Well, we had plasmas before OLED, those were quite good. Better than OLED to be honest as far as I am concerned. I will take the last gen Panasonic Plasma over the new OLEDs any day if it could have been had in 4K.
People with the 4500 are getting phenomenal fade to blacks with the laser modulation and very high DI multipliers so it really increases that base number.
I would also prefer a late generation plasma over a current OLED for general viewing. Like everyone else I marvel at the black levels with OLED in the showroom and then I start seeing the flaws. They have a lot to iron out. I doubt I'll own one anytime soon because only the kids watch flat panels in my house anymore. I'm almost always in front of the projector if I'm watching TV at all. Or occasionally with the F8500. And despite doubling the contrast of my current projector I never wish I was watching my plasma instead of it.
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post #15 of 84 Old 07-24-2017, 11:37 PM
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First, to set expectations there are no projectors under $10k that compare to a 4k uhd OLED tv. You'd have to triple your projector budget at the minimum, and even then it still won't be as good as an OLED TV for a number of reasons. But, OLED TVs aren't 120"+ like projectors at a reasonable price, so you are giving up some quality for size.

I'd recommend a laser projector since your parents probably don't want the hassle of having to change bulbs, bulbs dimming, bulbs exploding if you don't replace them timely, etc.

Under 10k, your best right now for your parents is likely the Epson LS10500 laser projector. This projector is only native 1080p, but out of the box it also supports 4k input, HDR10, DCI-P3 and has a 4k enhancement pixelshifting mode that removes the 1080p pixel grid. It also has a number of convenience features they would likely appreciate. Next, combine this with a Stuart StudioTek 130 screen of 120"-140" size, I'd make it as big as you can in this range while still being centered in front of the viewing position and having room for speakers on sides. Finally, paint the ceiling flat black.

Also note in 2 months will be the CEDIA convention where all the projector manufacturers announce new models, and there will likely be new Laser models announced at that time.
Not a very good suggestion with a 140in screen for uhd BD. Or for the best black levels under $10K

Maybe a 110in 1.3 gain screen with the Epson

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post #16 of 84 Old 07-25-2017, 04:30 AM
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Not a very good suggestion with a 140in screen for uhd BD. Or for the best black levels under $10K

Maybe a 110in 1.3 gain screen with the Epson
It's for his parents, who may not be the most technically minded if he is doing their setup for them. Are you going to service the projector for them when the bulb goes on a JVC? The Epson prevents them from worrying about this, and they'd probably appreciate this more than slightly better blacks they might not notice anyway. Remember, bulbs dont blow on OLED TVs.

Also i used a projector with 20% less lumens than the Epson on a 120" screen with effective 1.1 gain and it was more than bright enough as long as room was blacked out. The Epson should be just fine on a 120" 1.3 gain screen or even 140" 1.3 gain screen if room is prepared, but 140 would be tops IMO.

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post #17 of 84 Old 07-25-2017, 04:42 AM
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I am a B6 OLED owner and I can tell you that yes, you can get a projector with the picture quality of an OLED TV.


The Sony VW1100es produces OLED-esque picture but costs $30,000 ... Which sounds expensive compared to a $3000 OLED, but bear in mind that the OLED is 65" while the VW1100es could easily be 150". the cheapest 77" OLEDs are still $20,000 MSRP which is roughly 66% of the cost of a VW1100es but only 25% of the image size if you choose to project on a 150" screen.

I imagine if LG made a 100" display (still MUCH smaller than a 120" PJ, let alone 150"...) it would cost many times the cost of a VW1100es. Possibly $100,000 if not more.

Even the Sony VW1000es from 2011 is pretty close to OLED in my opinion a friend of mine has one and I've seen many movies at his place. Obviously the contrast is neither infinite nor are the blacks absolute but the contrast is still ridiculously high and punchy and blacks are very close to true blacks. Very '3D-like' image in 2D.

Obviously they don't go as bright and aren't HDR compatible but they are very close to 4K OLED especially in SDR.
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post #18 of 84 Old 07-25-2017, 04:47 AM
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Then there's the X5 series JVC D-ILA projectors which have superior blacks to any Sony Projector despite costing 1/10th of its MSRP. (VW5000es)


its only 1080p but the image is still crystal sharp and contrast is higher than any non-OLED display on the market.


So for the price of a 65" OLED you get an image which is 3 or 4 times larger, blacks almost as deep, contrast almost as high and overall image quality relatively comparable.


OLED IS better, but not by that

If I had the room for it, I'd go PJ in cinema room and OLED in the living room... Any day of the week.
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post #19 of 84 Old 07-25-2017, 07:17 AM
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To me, there's only one option in that price range. The JVC rs620.

It is clearly superior in my eyes to anything Sony or other brand puts out in that price range. Contrast, color sharpness, depth of PQ.....it's hands-down the best projector, even if it "cheats" with the pixel shift. Some complain about issues with CMD, but I don't use that stuff anyway, and with the right 4K upscale player, you get virtually 4K PQ out of simple blu ray discs.

Put in "Planet Earth II UHD" and try to find an artifact. It's as close to OLED that I've seen from a projector.

These are phone pics off my screen.
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post #20 of 84 Old 07-25-2017, 07:45 AM
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Not a very good suggestion with a 140in screen for uhd BD. Or for the best black levels under $10K

Maybe a 110in 1.3 gain screen with the Epson
It's for his parents, who may not be the most technically minded if he is doing their setup for them. Are you going to service the projector for them when the bulb goes on a JVC? The Epson prevents them from worrying about this, and they'd probably appreciate this more than slightly better blacks they might not notice anyway. Remember, bulbs dont blow on OLED TVs.

Also i used a projector with 20% less lumens than the Epson on a 120" screen with effective 1.1 gain and it was more than bright enough as long as room was blacked out. The Epson should be just fine on a 120" 1.3 gain screen or even 140" 1.3 gain screen if room is prepared, but 140 would be tops IMO.
Don't think you understood my post, I said for uhd BD. First time I ever heard of the Epson not needing any type of service. Didn't know it was a service free projector or that one of those exist. Also, what you are saying is that his parents don't know anything about technology and to just get them anything, even though a 140in would not provide a uhd BD experience at all. Maybe, you should not provide an opinion if you are not capable of giving a reasonable resolution. It just confuses buyers with incorrect information.

Also, I think this is the reason forum members disagree with you so much. You are corrected and you respond with negative comments. Just like you said if I am going to go to his parents house and service the projector when the bulb blows or need any repairs. Extremely uncalled for. Then, we all get hit with infractions for responding specially to you. The Espon cannot provide enough lumens for a 140in screen for uhd BD, but a 110in screen would be much better. No need to be defensive.

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post #21 of 84 Old 07-25-2017, 07:47 AM
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If looking for OLED blacks in the projector world, the closest is JVC. Some of the other projectors have other advantages, but not in the contrast department, if contrast is what you care about.
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Hey everyone! Thank you for the replies. This Theater Room is for me as well since I will be living there for 4 years while my girlfriend finishes pharmacy school. I know technology really well and have always had the latest OLED so I wanted something within the same realm because I hooked my parents on OLEDs and they know the quality now.. Will they settle for something slightly less, of course, especially if they are getting a bigger screen.

I'm updating the first post with actual pictures of the room now. Can anyone direct me to the place where I would see exactly what size screen I need in this room? It is kind of an awkward size room, but we are planning on sitting about 14 feet back from the screen. I do not want an overkill size for this room. So please direct me where I can see what size we would need. Also, keep in mind I will need to put 1 big ultra SVS towers on each side of the screen as well.

Also, can anyone direct me to the JVC projector that was mentioned as the best option for our family? I do not see where to purchase it at when googling. It always brings up other countries other than the USA. Please tell me where I can get the best deal. If you would like to PM me please do so since pricing typically can't be talked about here.

Finally, will I actually be able to play real UHD 4k blu-rays on this projector or is there no point since it is not native 4k?

Thank you everyone!

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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
To me, there's only one option in that price range. The JVC rs620.

It is clearly superior in my eyes to anything Sony or other brand puts out in that price range. Contrast, color sharpness, depth of PQ.....it's hands-down the best projector, even if it "cheats" with the pixel shift. Some complain about issues with CMD, but I don't use that stuff anyway, and with the right 4K upscale player, you get virtually 4K PQ out of simple blu ray discs.

Put in "Planet Earth II UHD" and try to find an artifact. It's as close to OLED that I've seen from a projector.

These are phone pics off my screen.
Thank you for those pictures! What if I have actual 4K UHD discs, will it not do anything with these? Would it be pointless to use these discs in my 4K player with this projector? So the JVC will beat out the Sony 4K UHD projector that is 10k dollars? Thanks

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If looking for OLED blacks in the projector world, the closest is JVC. Some of the other projectors have other advantages, but not in the contrast department, if contrast is what you care about.
I definitely care about contrast and blacks since I am used to my old Panny ZT60 and my current E6.

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Originally Posted by SnellTHX View Post
Then there's the X5 series JVC D-ILA projectors which have superior blacks to any Sony Projector despite costing 1/10th of its MSRP. (VW5000es)


its only 1080p but the image is still crystal sharp and contrast is higher than any non-OLED display on the market.


So for the price of a 65" OLED you get an image which is 3 or 4 times larger, blacks almost as deep, contrast almost as high and overall image quality relatively comparable.


OLED IS better, but not by that

If I had the room for it, I'd go PJ in cinema room and OLED in the living room... Any day of the week.
Thanks for your reply. I definitely agree that I should go with a projector for the cinema room and an OLED for my living room. It looks like I will go with the JVC RS620 per everyone's opinion. I just hope I can play UHD 4K's and it is worthwhile on it since it is not native 4k like other projectors.

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While the Epson LS10500 is very good projector, I would suggest the JVC DLA-RS620 or the very similar but less expensive DLA-RS520 models. These projectors produce very high contrast with very deep blacks, with closer to OLED performance than the Epson or Sony projectors. While not a native 4K projector, with its pixel shifting technique (basically the same as what Epson is doing), the on-screen resolution is better than 1080p but just a little short of full 4K (its not really by much with real world 4K/UHD video sources). As for a screen suggestion I would look at a Stewart fixed frame screen (such as their Deluxe WallScreen) perhaps in a "scope" format (e.g. 2:35:1 aspect ratio) if the home theater will be used mainly for viewing movies. In any case, I suggest using a matte white fabric. In Stewart's regular product line that would mean their excellent StudioTek 100 (gain 1.0) or their StudioTek 130 (gain 1.3) fabric and a screen size in the range approx.110" to 125" wide. If you go with a standard 16 x 9 aspect ratio screen this means one with a diagonal size of approx. 125" to 140" or for a ."scope" screen with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio this would mean a diagonal size of approx. 120" to 135" Stewart also offers a less expensive Cima series of screens with their Neve screen material (gain 1.1) that are also very good and is offered only in certain fixed sizes. See below for your limitations on the max. screen size.


The JVC projectors have a lens with a throw ratio of 1.4:1 up to 2.8:1 (a 2x zoom). This means the minimum throw distance required from the front of the projector's lens to the screen is 1.4 times the screen width and thus for a 125 inch wide screen the minimum throw distance is 125 x 1.4 = 175 inches or 14.58 feet. So you will need to get accurate measurements for the projector mounting options and remember the throw distance is from the front of the projector's lens and you will need to allow around 2 feet behind that for the projector itself and for ventilation behind the projector. So in your case your max. screen size may very well be limited by the constraints on projector mounting location. Also allow a few extra inches of throw distance as there can be some small variations from projector-to-projector (true for any brand of projector).


I would suggest adding a quality Ultra HD Blu-ray player such an Oppo UDP203 or for a lower price the Sony UDP-X800.


If the projector is to be ceiling mounted I would suggest a mount from the manufacturer Chief.


Also I would suggest the AV Science store as a great source for these products. I see Craig Peer posted above and I suggest you contact him for prices and advice - 877-823-4452 ext 106 -- store link: https://avscience.com/


Some links of interest:


http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL102474
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/cim...art-filmscreen
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/ste...llscreen-(sndq)
http://www.projectorreviews.com/stew...screen-review/
https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-udp-203/
https://www.sony.com/electronics/blu...ayers/ubp-x800
I'm going to post actual pictures of the room. Please let me know what you would think for the projector placement and screen size. I was thinking of mounting it right where the wall dips down in the center of the room towards the back. I'm not sure how that would work with ventilation though. I will definitely look into these products. I'm definitely leaning towards the JVC RS620 per all of you guys on here. I already have the Oppo UDP 203. Will I be able to play UHD 4K's in the player and see a difference with this projector? Will it even recognize that I have a 4K UHD in? Will the picture be better than normal 4K's like on my current 4K OLED? I am assuming it won't do HDR, correct? Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Well, we had plasmas before OLED, those were quite good. Better than OLED to be honest as far as I am concerned. I will take the last gen Panasonic Plasma over the new OLEDs any day if it could have been had in 4K.
People with the 4500 are getting phenomenal fade to blacks with the laser modulation and very high DI multipliers so it really increases that base number.
I had the ZT60 and think it is pretty close to the E6 I have now. I think the E6 is actually better since it is 4K and not 1080p.

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Originally Posted by SnellTHX View Post
I am a B6 OLED owner and I can tell you that yes, you can get a projector with the picture quality of an OLED TV.


The Sony VW1100es produces OLED-esque picture but costs $30,000 ... Which sounds expensive compared to a $3000 OLED, but bear in mind that the OLED is 65" while the VW1100es could easily be 150". the cheapest 77" OLEDs are still $20,000 MSRP which is roughly 66% of the cost of a VW1100es but only 25% of the image size if you choose to project on a 150" screen.

I imagine if LG made a 100" display (still MUCH smaller than a 120" PJ, let alone 150"...) it would cost many times the cost of a VW1100es. Possibly $100,000 if not more.

Even the Sony VW1000es from 2011 is pretty close to OLED in my opinion a friend of mine has one and I've seen many movies at his place. Obviously the contrast is neither infinite nor are the blacks absolute but the contrast is still ridiculously high and punchy and blacks are very close to true blacks. Very '3D-like' image in 2D.

Obviously they don't go as bright and aren't HDR compatible but they are very close to 4K OLED especially in SDR.
The total room budget for them is $20k and that includes furniture so I really need to keep the projector cost at 10k or under so I have room to purchase another subwoofer from SVS, do the room treatments, wiring, etc. I already have an AVR, speakers, and a 4K player though. Even though I might even upgrade the AVR since mine is only 7.1 with 2 subwoofers capable. I could always start with that and see if any other speakers should be installed. I was really thinking getting a 9.1 AVR though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Don't think you understood my post, I said for uhd BD. First time I ever heard of the Epson not needing any type of service. Didn't know it was a service free projector or that one of those exist. Also, what you are saying is that his parents don't know anything about technology and to just get them anything, even though a 140in would not provide a uhd BD experience at all. Maybe, you should not provide an opinion if you are not capable of giving a reasonable resolution. It just confuses buyers with incorrect information.

Also, I think this is the reason forum members disagree with you so much. You are corrected and you respond with negative comments. Just like you said if I am going to go to his parents house and service the projector when the bulb blows or need any repairs. Extremely uncalled for. Then, we all get hit with infractions for responding specially to you. The Espon cannot provide enough lumens for a 140in screen for uhd BD, but a 110in screen would be much better. No need to be defensive.
Thanks for your reply. I am leaning towards the JVC and like the pictures above.

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post #23 of 84 Old 08-02-2017, 03:45 PM
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The best JVC you have seen is what, the 420? And you also said you were barely hitting 20k:1 IIRC.

Seeing proper 100k+ Native is a different story all together, before you even get into the dynamic iris multipliers.

Agree that after true 100k:1 native and good DI, there is not too much more room for improvement right now. Pair that with a laser engine that can fully shut off on Fade to black, thats a winner.


I must say that after true 100,000:1 contrast ratio it doesn't really get that much better than that. Infinity isn't that much better than 100K:1 IMO
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post #24 of 84 Old 08-02-2017, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Can someone tell me how this compares to the Sony VPLVW365ES? It's native 4k hdr and is just a little more money than the RS620. I'm going to be using the projector for strictly 4k uhd blu rays and regular blu ray watching so wouldn't the Sony be better and it's $8k. Thank you

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post #25 of 84 Old 08-02-2017, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Can someone tell me how this compares to the Sony VPLVW365ES? It's native 4k hdr and is just a little more money than the RS620. I'm going to be using the projector for strictly 4k uhd blu rays and regular blu ray watching so wouldn't the Sony be better and it's $8k. Thank you
I won't even choose it over the RS420 for less than $3K.
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post #26 of 84 Old 08-02-2017, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Can someone tell me how this compares to the Sony VPLVW365ES? It's native 4k hdr and is just a little more money than the RS620. I'm going to be using the projector for strictly 4k uhd blu rays and regular blu ray watching so wouldn't the Sony be better and it's $8k. Thank you
Wait until CEDIA 2017, it is now only about a month away and Sony is expected to update the VW365ES.

In addition, JVC might update their projectors and fix some of the current issues with autocal and CMD.
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post #27 of 84 Old 08-03-2017, 04:29 AM
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I must say that after true 100,000:1 contrast ratio it doesn't really get that much better than that. Infinity isn't that much better than 100K:1 IMO
The problem is that JVC only achieves those numbers on a black screen. In actual content with something on the screen, every projector contrast deteriorates very quickly to numbers that are a tiny fraction of on/off ratings. If you're not using masking, just watch those letterbox bars float up and down in brightness depending on what's on the screen. With the OLED, you keep the infinite contrast and absolute blacks regardless of content.

Try this calculator if you want to get some idea of what your projector is delivering on real content. If you're too lazy to enter the numbers, just see this plot as an example (source). Something similar happens with the higher-end JVC units but their peak contrast starts higher at 0 APL.

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post #28 of 84 Old 08-03-2017, 06:07 AM
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A few comments:


The Sony entry level native 4K projector (VW365) has limited contrast (it has no manual or automatic iris to help with that), and lacks some of the other features of Ultra HD (other than simply resolution). I would certainly pick a JVC RS620 (or RS520) over this Sony model. The link for the JVC RS620 is here:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL102475


As for where to purchase, the AV Science store sells the JVC projector at a good discount and offer great customer service. They also sell Sony projectors. I suggest you talk to either Craig or Mike (who have both posted above) for more info (see link below).
https://avscience.com/about-us/


As for screen size the "traditional" rule of thumb for HD was to use seating distance about 1.5 times the screen width or alternatively 3 times screen height. However, with 4K, including the 4K-lite (pixel shifting), many feel you can sit closer (e.g.,, 1.0 times the screen width or as close as 1.5 times screen height). Thus, for a 14 ft. seating distance you could go with a rather wide screen. For the 1.5X screen width rule that would mean a 114 inch wide screen and that should be minimum size screen to consider. However, I would suggest going with a large 'scope' screen, having an aspect ratio of either 2:35:1 (or better still 2.40:1) and with a width of around 130 to 140 inches for use with a JVC projector, with its lens memory feature to accommodate different aspect ratios. Since you will probably be watching a lot more 1080p (HD) source material than 4K then I suggest not going too extreme in terms of screen size. Also all else equal, the larger the screen the dimmer the image will be, so using a screen material with some gain (such as Stewart's ST130 with 1.3:1 gain) for the larger screen sizes makes sense. Remember screens are often listed by their diagonal size so check their specs for width and height.. Here is a link to a thread talking about screen size vs. viewing distance: What is Your Viewing Distance Relative to Screen Height?



Remember for a larger screen size you will need a longer projector-to-screen throw distance. From the picture of your room is the beam that runs across the room's ceiling at the 14 ft. distance from the screen wall? Perhaps you could use a ceiling mount beyond that beam with the projector lowered down from the ceiling far enough so that the you would still have clear line-of-sight from the projector's lens to the top of the screen, thus allowing you have a greater than 14 ft. throw distance to accommodate larger screen sizes.

As was mentioned above by another forum member the annual CEDIA Expo trade show is coming up just a month from now and that's where both Sony and JVC are expected to introduce their new projectors. However, the new models probably won't be available before late this year (JVC dealers typically being delivering the new models in December). So if you don't need the projector before Dec. 2017 or perhaps Jan. 2018, then why not wait until next month to decide which projector to go with. By the way I will be blogging from CEDIA with info on the new projectors that are being introduced (link: http://www.projectorreviews.com/home...echnical-side/)
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post #29 of 84 Old 08-03-2017, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iStorm View Post
Can someone tell me how this compares to the Sony VPLVW365ES? It's native 4k hdr and is just a little more money than the RS620. I'm going to be using the projector for strictly 4k uhd blu rays and regular blu ray watching so wouldn't the Sony be better and it's $8k. Thank you
Depends on your room. I would be happy to discuss the differences. Shoot me a PM or email.

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post #30 of 84 Old 08-03-2017, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
The problem is that JVC only achieves those numbers on a black screen. In actual content with something on the screen, every projector contrast deteriorates very quickly to numbers that are a tiny fraction of on/off ratings. If you're not using masking, just watch those letterbox bars float up and down in brightness depending on what's on the screen. With the OLED, you keep the infinite contrast and absolute blacks regardless of content.

Try this calculator if you want to get some idea of what your projector is delivering on real content. If you're too lazy to enter the numbers, just see this plot as an example (source). Something similar happens with the higher-end JVC units but their peak contrast starts higher at 0 APL.

I really like your post. I have observed this phenomena especially as my native C/R on my sony 500es got worse. thanks
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