UPGRADE BUG from JVC DLA-RS20. Suggestions for a poor man? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Red face UPGRADE BUG from JVC DLA-RS20. Suggestions for a poor man?

I've enjoyed my JVC RS20 for quite a while now...in fact, I have logged close to 15,000 hours on her. I've got a recent bug to upgrade, but I also need to stay in my 'poor man' reality....I will cross-post this in the <$3K forum as well. So TOP BUDGET IS $3000. I love my JVC for its' native contrast and overall PQ, but I would love to get into 4K (or Faux 4K) with the possibility of HDR. Any JVC lovers out there that have switched to Epson/Optima?

Things I would not give up...

1. Motorized zoom/shift/focus
2. Sealed Optics
3. My anamorphic Lens. (it's a panamorph 100PU vertical stretch lens). long throw here.

Am I really missing so much better PQ with today's offerings? And what would be a decent upgrade, without breaking the bank? Many thanks in advance.
PS. I need the throw ratio to be very similar to the HS20 ------>16feet.
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post #2 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 03:53 PM
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Seems like an easy answer - a later but not current generation JVC with DI and the brighter lamp.

Either a used one or ask Craig Peer or Mike Garrett at AVS if they have any deals on closeouts or B-stock.
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post #3 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post
Yeah Highjinx I've certainly gotten a LOT of use out of this machine! So, if I couldn't get the X550, what would be a close alternative to the 550? And what is the equivalent JVC to the X550??? (it's been a while since a projector hunt, lol)....

Terry
The RS400 is the equivalent.

Official JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/X5000) Owner's Thread
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post #4 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 07:42 PM
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I've enjoyed my JVC RS20 for quite a while now...in fact, I have logged close to 15,000 hours on her. I've got a recent bug to upgrade,
Have you got it fully calibrated and cleaned the glass that sits in front of the lamp? If not, you'll get a boost in brightness and picture quality (from calibration) that its probably better spent than getting another JVC. Picture quality on the RS20 when fully calibrated still can stand side by side with the latest JVC's for 1080p's.
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post #5 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 703 View Post
Have you got it fully calibrated and cleaned the glass that sits in front of the lamp? If not, you'll get a boost in brightness and picture quality (from calibration) that its probably better spent than getting another JVC. Picture quality on the RS20 when fully calibrated still can stand side by side with the latest JVC's for 1080p's.
703, Yes, I know ALL about that, and do it fairly frequently! It is a wonderful trick to clean the internal glass of the HS20, as keep the air filter clean etc...NOW TO THE CALIBRATION....My current bulb (my 8th one!) is dying slowly, to the point where basic WOW calibration is of no use. I have never calibrated it professionally. I know what this machine can do PQ wise, however, and I mostly am interested in more punch, with the major bonus of Eshift....or any faux 4K that WORKS. I sit fairly close to my 115" 2.40 scope screen (1st row), so any bump-up in rez is greatly appreciated. Plus the excitement of 4K UHD BD will be a nice treat (eventually).
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post #6 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 09:31 PM
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Unfortunately, I think you have to take the pj apart and clean both the front and back of both those tiny piece of glasses.

A RS400 will be a huge increase in brightness.

Current projector - JVC RS25 and Marantz VP15S1
Future projector - pre-ordered new JVC from AVScience
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post #7 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post
703, Yes, I know ALL about that, and do it fairly frequently! It is a wonderful trick to clean the internal glass of the HS20, as keep the air filter clean etc...NOW TO THE CALIBRATION....My current bulb (my 8th one!) is dying slowly, to the point where basic WOW calibration is of no use. I have never calibrated it professionally. I know what this machine can do PQ wise, however, and I mostly am interested in more punch, with the major bonus of Eshift....or any faux 4K that WORKS. I sit fairly close to my 115" 2.40 scope screen (1st row), so any bump-up in rez is greatly appreciated. Plus the excitement of 4K UHD BD will be a nice treat (eventually).
Man, I hate to imagine what your gamma plot looks like...

I would imagine you have significant gamma droop. For which a calibration will make your unit look brand new and probably will frankly shock you.

You could even do this yourself with a $200 meter and a PC running HCFR. Or Autocal if your unit has it.

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post #8 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Man, I hate to imagine what your gamma plot looks like...' Yeah, that's what my Doctor said! lol....so it looks like there's two camps-o-thought here. Give my current PJ a facelift, or bite a brighter bullet. Please note that I am not looking for only a brighter projector. In fact, when I throw new bulbs at it, the image is quite satisfying in brightness... in my 'Duck and Cover' theater (bat cave). So a $200 meter, eh Javs ? Please enlighten me So $200 for calibration + $165 for a new bulb ===$365 for the facelift, or the new/old JVC replacement at >$2K. Hmmmm. If only I could witness eShift in person, or any 4aux K at that Thanks so far Boyzzz.
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post #9 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 703 View Post
Picture quality on the RS20 when fully calibrated still can stand side by side with the latest JVC's for 1080p's.
Maybe, but what about higher brightness and contrast, and I believe the newer lamps last longer too.
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post #10 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 10:23 PM
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703, Yes, I know ALL about that, and do it fairly frequently! It is a wonderful trick to clean the internal glass of the HS20, as keep the air filter clean etc...NOW TO THE CALIBRATION....My current bulb (my 8th one!) is dying slowly, to the point where basic WOW calibration is of no use. I have never calibrated it professionally. .
Just do the calibration yourself, buy a second hand spectroradiometer, and you can use the free HCFR to begin with. The RS20's default white balance is horrible. Once you have dialed that in, you get a much more 3D picture. I would not calibrate anything other than brightness/contrast by eye. Learn to do it, its fun. And when you finally upgrade your PJ, you can do the same.
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post #11 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 10:24 PM
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Man, I hate to imagine what your gamma plot looks like...' Yeah, that's what my Doctor said! lol....so it looks like there's two camps-o-thought here. Give my current PJ a facelift, or bite a brighter bullet. Please note that I am not looking for only a brighter projector. In fact, when I throw new bulbs at it, the image is quite satisfying in brightness... in my 'Duck and Cover' theater (bat cave). So a $200 meter, eh Javs ? Please enlighten me So $200 for calibration + $165 for a new bulb ===$365 for the facelift, or the new/old JVC replacement at >$2K. Hmmmm. If only I could witness eShift in person, or any 4aux K at that Thanks so far Boyzzz.
Well, a meter, and a little tiny bit of know how goes a long way, you don't need to be a pro to get your gamma flat and correct a gamma droop. Just a bit of tinkering, in fact, does your projector have a built in 12pt gamma calibration? I know the new ones moved that option to Autocal, but I do know it used to be in the actual JVC menu which makes it easier for you.

And remember the $200 meter will last you for years, its not a perishable item compared to something like a lamp. So, you should be able to get fairly consistent readings for multiple projectors in its life time.

Some calibrators will say you need Spectro's to 'profile' your cheaper meter to be sure its truly accurate, but my point is, $200 gets you pretty darn close, at least close to the realm of variances in accuracy not being visible to the human eye. Gamma is one thing that will completely destroy a projectors image and kind of wash everything out a bit, when corrected, at least you can be sure you are in the ballpark of where you need to be as it were.

Even if you bought a new JVC, I would be recommending you buy a meter since you will only need to correct your inevitable gamma droop anyway within the first few hundred hours.
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post #12 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 10:27 PM
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Maybe, but what about higher brightness and contrast, and I believe the newer lamps last longer too.
Depending on how the OP have their viewing environment setup. Even I have a bat cave, I like watching with some ambient light. So the difference between 50,000:1 contrast to 100,000:1 contrast is not noticeable.

Yes, the higher brightness will help, but I don't particularly like a bright picture in a bat cave, it's not as comfortable to watch. The whites becomes a torch shining into your eyes.
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post #13 of 33 Old 08-03-2017, 10:45 PM
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Some of those RS20 had light engines with on/off contrast in excess of 100,000:1 @ -15

I did a recal using my Spyder 3() and spectracal 4.0?,came out lookin' quite good, except a slight magenta stripe on the RHS, 5% mask and it's not visible.

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post #14 of 33 Old 08-04-2017, 04:57 AM
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If only I could witness eShift in person, or any 4aux K at that Thanks so far Boyzzz.
I don't think e-Shift is going to knock your socks off, I got back and forth and, with 1080p sources at least, the difference is rather subtle.

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Originally Posted by 703 View Post
Depending on how the OP have their viewing environment setup. Even I have a bat cave, I like watching with some ambient light. So the difference between 50,000:1 contrast to 100,000:1 contrast is not noticeable.
Well ambient light crushes your contrast so that would explain things, for me, the difference in contrast between my RS4910 and RS600 was quite apparent.

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Yes, the higher brightness will help, but I don't particularly like a bright picture in a bat cave, it's not as comfortable to watch. The whites becomes a torch shining into your eyes.
The biggest advantage of the extra light output for SDR, isn't a brighter image, it's being able to close down the aperture much farther, resulting in much higher native contrast at the same on screen brightness.
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post #15 of 33 Old 08-04-2017, 06:15 AM
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post #16 of 33 Old 08-05-2017, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, a meter, and a little tiny bit of know how goes a long way, you don't need to be a pro to get your gamma flat and correct a gamma droop. Just a bit of tinkering, in fact, does your projector have a built in 12pt gamma calibration? I know the new ones moved that option to Autocal, but I do know it used to be in the actual JVC menu which makes it easier for you.
An ODD thing happened last night, while I was trying to run some basic calibrations! I selected 'reset' on my RS20, within the picture adjust menu, and it RESET MY FIRMWARE to its' previous version! Now, at first, I was pretty bummed b/c it took a lot of effort to upgrade the firmware a few years back...BUT, You know what? It actually looks sharper now, even with all the gamma 'options' gone from the menu. I can't explain it, it just looks SHARPER. With that all-aside though, I still want to buy a calibration tool (to correct for gamma) when I get my new bulb next week. COULD YOU SEND ME A LINK TO THAT CALIBRATER??? This might be hard to correct gamma, now that my firmware is back to square1. I will keep my projector, atleast until CEDIA is over. Thanks so much guys, and it was fun for the last few days 'shopping'. Man, I missed that projector bug for a while!
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post #17 of 33 Old 08-05-2017, 04:49 PM
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I use this meter.

http://www.xrite.com/categories/cali.../i1display-pro

$279USD RRP.

I am sure you can find it way cheaper, hell I paid $280 AUD for mine.

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post #18 of 33 Old 08-05-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 703 View Post
Depending on how the OP have their viewing environment setup. Even I have a bat cave, I like watching with some ambient light. So the difference between 50,000:1 contrast to 100,000:1 contrast is not noticeable.

Yes, the higher brightness will help, but I don't particularly like a bright picture in a bat cave, it's not as comfortable to watch. The whites becomes a torch shining into your eyes.
I'm guessing you have never seen 50K CR compared to a 100K CR. It's a clear difference.
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post #19 of 33 Old 08-05-2017, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 703 View Post
Have you got it fully calibrated and cleaned the glass that sits in front of the lamp? If not, you'll get a boost in brightness and picture quality (from calibration) that its probably better spent than getting another JVC. Picture quality on the RS20 when fully calibrated still can stand side by side with the latest JVC's for 1080p's.
When one reads statements such as these, as an owner of a RS20, one tends to be hesitant about upgrading......surely many strides have been made since 2008-9.

....but will be quite happy to hear the improvements have been minor.

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post #20 of 33 Old 08-05-2017, 09:01 PM
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I'm guessing you have never seen 50K CR compared to a 100K CR. It's a clear difference.
I never said there is no difference. I just said in most viewing environments, where there is an amount of ambient illumination from lights, or reflection off walls/furniture, the difference is not clear. I have both - one that is 50K and another one that is well over 100K CR.
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post #21 of 33 Old 08-05-2017, 09:09 PM
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I never said there is no difference. I just said in most viewing environments, where there is an amount of ambient illumination from lights, or reflection off walls/furniture, the difference is not clear. I have both - one that is 50K and another one that is well over 100K CR.
With an extreme situation, a $50K projector will look similar to a $500 projector in a bad viewing environment. I took it as a good environment or one than can take advantage of a 100K CR projector. However, even in an environment that is not ideal, there will still be a noticeable difference.
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post #22 of 33 Old 08-06-2017, 03:38 AM
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When one reads statements such as these, as an owner of a RS20, one tends to be hesitant about upgrading......surely many strides have been made since 2008-9.

....but will be quite happy to hear the improvements have been minor.
I actually had a RS35 at the same time with RS400. My RS35 probably hit 70K with the iris closed at 200 lumens. I had a HP 2.4, so it barely worked, had to open it up for more light and less CR. However, with the RS400, I was able to close the iris for max contrast with a great DI. Better contrast due to the DO with a brighter picture was much better on the RS400. The picture was brighter, sharper, and high resolution. Along with excellent 3D and UHD BD ready, the RS400 smashed the RS35 that I was extremely happy with. Now the RS420 has lower lag for gaming and a better implementation of HDR and eshift, it's the best deal around for under $3K.
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post #23 of 33 Old 08-06-2017, 04:26 AM
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I actually had a RS35 at the same time with RS400. My RS35 probably hit 70K with the iris closed at 200 lumens. I had a HP 2.4, so it barely worked, had to open it up for more light and less CR. However, with the RS400, I was able to close the iris for max contrast with a great DI. Better contrast due to the DO with a brighter picture was much better on the RS400. The picture was brighter, sharper, and high resolution. Along with excellent 3D and UHD BD ready, the RS400 smashed the RS35 that I was extremely happy with. Now the RS420 has lower lag for gaming and a better implementation of HDR and eshift, it's the best deal around for under $3K.
Just finished watching Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children on Blu Ray, looked lovely, freshly calibrated RS20/HD75 -15 Iris 2.4HP 106". I was thinking, who needs HDR, when Emma Blooms dress light up by the light! I get 20+ Ft/lamberts on my set-up.

Let's see what the new JVC's bring to the table, perhaps I need to borrow/rent one of the new ones for a week-end and do a comparison. Would hate to buy only to find a marginal improvement...but these improvements are so subjective. Marginal to some, huge to others!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
When one reads statements such as these, as an owner of a RS20, one tends to be hesitant about upgrading......surely many strides have been made since 2008-9.

....but will be quite happy to hear the improvements have been minor.
I have had several customers that moved from an RS20 to an RS520 and every one of them said it was a huge improvement. I still have an RS20 and I have an RS400 also. While I was waiting for my RS4500 to come in, I had both the 400 and the 20 set up at the same time. After watching the RS400, it was hard to watch the RS20. The sharpness difference alone was huge.
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post #25 of 33 Old 08-06-2017, 06:08 AM
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I have had several customers that moved from an RS20 to an RS520 and every one of them said it was a huge improvement. I still have an RS20 and I have an RS400 also. While I was waiting for my RS4500 to come in, I had both the 400 and the 20 set up at the same time. After watching the RS400, it was hard to watch the RS20. The sharpness difference alone was huge.
I am itching for an UpGrade!.....I don't mind spending the money if it is indeed an upgrade. Thanks for the input. Let's see what the X9900 brings to the image.
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post #26 of 33 Old 08-14-2017, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I use this meter.

http://www.xrite.com/categories/cali.../i1display-pro

$279USD RRP.

I am sure you can find it way cheaper, hell I paid $280 AUD for mine.
Hey Javs , I'm wondering if you, or anyone else, has had a chance to use their lower-end model, 'the ColorMunki', which looks pretty similar (in design) to their i1Display Pro model....I'm sure it has to have less features at this lower price...Comments???
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post #27 of 33 Old 08-16-2017, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post
Hey Javs , I'm wondering if you, or anyone else, has had a chance to use their lower-end model, 'the ColorMunki', which looks pretty similar (in design) to their i1Display Pro model....I'm sure it has to have less features at this lower price...Comments???
It's been awhile since I paid much attention to meters (I've been using Autocal via Calman, a id3 and a Lumagen for over a year) but if I remember correctly the main difference between the ColorMunki and the iD3 is that the cheaper meter is slower. Probably doesn't matter all the much unless you calibrate a lot. Having said that the iD3 routinely goes on sale in the US for around $180 or so. But then again I've seen the ColorMunki for around $130.
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post #28 of 33 Old 08-16-2017, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Well, a meter, and a little tiny bit of know how goes a long way, you don't need to be a pro to get your gamma flat and correct a gamma droop. Just a bit of tinkering, in fact, does your projector have a built in 12pt gamma calibration? I know the new ones moved that option to Autocal, but I do know it used to be in the actual JVC menu which makes it easier for you.

And remember the $200 meter will last you for years, its not a perishable item compared to something like a lamp. So, you should be able to get fairly consistent readings for multiple projectors in its life time.

Some calibrators will say you need Spectro's to 'profile' your cheaper meter to be sure its truly accurate, but my point is, $200 gets you pretty darn close, at least close to the realm of variances in accuracy not being visible to the human eye. Gamma is one thing that will completely destroy a projectors image and kind of wash everything out a bit, when corrected, at least you can be sure you are in the ballpark of where you need to be as it were.

Even if you bought a new JVC, I would be recommending you buy a meter since you will only need to correct your inevitable gamma droop anyway within the first few hundred hours.
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post #29 of 33 Old 08-16-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post
Hey Javs , I'm wondering if you, or anyone else, has had a chance to use their lower-end model, 'the ColorMunki', which looks pretty similar (in design) to their i1Display Pro model....I'm sure it has to have less features at this lower price...Comments???
I know nothing about that meter sorry.

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post #30 of 33 Old 08-20-2017, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post
Hey Javs , I'm wondering if you, or anyone else, has had a chance to use their lower-end model, 'the ColorMunki', which looks pretty similar (in design) to their i1Display Pro model....I'm sure it has to have less features at this lower price...Comments???
Hi, ColorMunki Display / i1Display PRO are based under the same hardware; they both have sealed and higher quality filters and they are less sensitive to drift over the time, you will get better and more stable/faster reading to any pulse display (Plasma/DLP projectors etc.) with i1Display PRO because it has better refreshing rate scan capability, I prefer i1Display PRO because is supported also from more calibration software solutions. ColorMunki has no refreshing rate scan (sync), which is important when you measure projectors, it will be a lot slower also, not so good repeatability like i1Display PRO.

If you want to calibrate TV/Projector, ColorMunki Display is not supported by CalMAN/ChromaPure calibration software.

You can use ColorMunki Display with HCFR and ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI (additionally with LightSpace; contact me here to send you the instructions)

The latest generation of i1Display PRO (Rev.B) it features a new refresh rate detection and synchronization AIO (All in One) measurement mode which can improve the measurement stability for certain displays and provide lower reading times.

AIO mode is supported from only from LightSpace and ChromaPure, HCFR/DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS has also custom code for providing similar results with adaptive exposure times/sync modes without using AIO mode.
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