I owe an apology to Jeff (The Bland) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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A month or so ago I took issue with you. You're of the persuasion that increasing panel resolution should be the priority. And that's what primarily will give us the picture quality improvement we seek.
I, however, maintained that panel resolution was nearing a point that no further improvement is necessary. And that instead we would be better off if projector manufacturers were to concentrate on contrast and black level.

After living with an HT1000 for a while, I now realize that you were right and I was wrong. I now know that more and smaller pixels are the real road to improvement in DLP picture quality.
Why? Well of course it will permit the display to more finely resolve high resolution source material. But that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about here.

The fact is that DLP is burdened with a number of image artifacts. Some of which have not yet even been explored here.
And most all of these artifacts become less and less visible as pixels become smaller and smaller (or greater in number). It's just that simple.

Bob
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post #2 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:01 AM
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I agree. I will replace my HT1000 when a new generation of 4:3 projectors with 1400 x 1050 chips ( like JVC's DLA-SX21U projector ) come way down in price. 3 years maybe. And I'll be able to use my new Panamorph lens hopefully too!

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post #3 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
A month or so ago I took issue with you. You're of the persuasion that increasing panel resolution should be the priority. And that's what primarily will give us the picture quality improvement we seek.
I thought that Jeff's position was that increased resolution (like SXRD) was not necessary with today's content and that improving contrast ratio was more important. He is using 1360x1024 pixels from quite a viewing distance, where I'm pretty sure he has enough pixels. Maybe you mean that Jeff's position is that DLPs need more pixels (like LCOS).

--Darin

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post #4 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:20 AM
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I loved the Sharp 10K, but couldn't stand the pixelated image. It seemed blocky and unnatural. And that's 1280x720.

The SX21 with Panamorph is smooth as butter. Absolute black level and contrast aren't as nice during the darkest scenes, but the shadow detail is there in spades and the colors are smooth and natural.

I know there are a lot of HT1000 fans on this forum, and for it to be so popular it must have a lot going for it, so I'd never dream of bashing it. To each his own. Still, I could never understand how anyone could be satisfied with a 1024x768 panel.

And as you mentioned, that panel res isn't anywhere near enough to resolve all the detail in good HD broadcasts. The 1400x1050 panel is quite stunning on the SX21 when a good external scaler that properly deinterlaces 1080i is in the mix. Levels of detail that appear to match film.
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post #5 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:30 AM
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Yep,

If you want to sit close and have a BIG image, you are going to need something more than 1280X720 like D-ila and just have to live with the less than perfect blacks.

I watch my HD2 Virtuoso from 1.6 screen widths back and pixelization isn't a problem, but I know if I got too much closer it definitely would be.

My fearless prediction is that they will have the processing fast enough to enable one chip 1920X1080 by next CEDIA, but who knows what the price is going to be. That should allow most people to sit one screen width away and not see pixels

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post #6 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Darin,

Regarding Jeff's position:

As I think about it, you may be right. I don't recall all of it very well anymore. But I think his position may be more accurately stated as wanting both more panel and source resolution. I think he's in the same camp as your and my mutual friend, Jerome.

But if that's the case then, as I mentioned, it's not actually what I'm talking about here. Let me try to explain.

I have no doubt that the HT1000 is making the most accurate DLP picture I have yet seen (or I should say the most accurate among all the DLP's I've yet owned).
Ironically, however, what I'm seeing is that this results in both good and bad. In some ways the picture is greatly improved. But in other ways it's not. Because I'm beginning to believe that this is also making some of the artifacts inherent to DLP more visible than what I've seen with less accurate displays.
It gets even more interesting. A lesser DLP (My X1 for example) actually does not make some of these flaws visible (or at least less visible). And because of this, the resulting picture in some ways is actually more pleasing to me (notice I said "some ways).
But, my limited viewing of a native 1280 DLP image, tells me I'm then starting to see a "smoothing out" of some of the things I'm seeing with my HT1000. And I'm now convinced that further increases in DMD resolution will make all this even less visible. While at the same time maintaining all the pleasing aspects of the DLP picture.

Again, what I'm observing with this has nothing to do with resolving source resolution. Fortunately, that will of course improve right along with this. But what I'm describing is just as relevant to viewing DVD.

Bob
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post #7 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:51 AM
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Bob, you're not trying the jedi mind trick on on us are you? Jeff's position is more resolution won't be benefitial.

Obviously a ridiculous sentiment as more resolution in any part of the chain will be better. Less resolution can only be better if you want to see LESS.
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post #8 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Well if that's the case I'm remembering Jeff all wrong (it's been a while since those posts were made). And I should have left Jeff out of this. Sorry for that confusion.
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post #9 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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What I am trying to do is get a handle on why I'm seeing some bad s**t with the HT1000 picture that I aint seeing with the X1 picture.
And why some of that bad s**t starts to go away with the HD2 picture. And I'm speculating that it will go away even more as the panel resolution increases beyond HD2. ;)
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post #10 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 11:57 AM
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because you're feeding it **** and you're just seeing more of it

better processing can reduce this
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post #11 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Well if a Radeon 7500 and Theater Tek (using either RGB or DVI) is s**t, then somebody tell me what I do to get out of the crapper. :D
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post #12 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Look. Let me say this and then I'll shut up. :)

I know Bob's eyeballs have to be wrong about this. Because Bob's eyeballs are just not seeing what every other person who owns an HT1000 is seeing. Their eyeballs are telling them something entirely different. That the picture is just all good. That there is no bad.

I had a long talk with Bob's eyeballs last night. I said "eyeballs, now you just listen to me. If I find out you're lying to me about this. If I find out you sons of bitches are just malcontent eyeballs that nitpick these subtle image qualities to death. Then I'm going to be pissed. And I may just think about getting me a new pair of eyeballs. Got that?"

Maybe that'll whip em into submission. We'll see (no pun intended). :)
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post #13 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
Well if a Radeon 7500 and Theater Tek (using either RGB or DVI) is s**t, then somebody tell me what I do to get out of the crapper. :D
I felt like TheaterTek showed quite a bit of mosquito noise and preferred the D1 with DVI by quite a bit. I had preferred TheaterTek by quite a bit over my RP82, also.

I'll just take a wild stab at what has happened here:

1. Bob gets HT1000 and is blown away.
2. Bob gets Bravo V880. Compares to TheaterTek and doesn't see much difference.
3. Bob sells V880.
4. Time marches on and Bob gets a little pickier.
5. Bob now sees artifacts that he hasn't seen before and decides that the HT1000 isn't up to the task.

That brings us up to today. Maybe the next step is:

6. Bob gets Bravo D1 and now that he has gotten more discriminating he sees how much of an improvement he gets over TheaterTek.

:D

--Darin

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post #14 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Well said, Darin. Bob does plan on getting a D1 or a D2. He's trying to decide which now. :D
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post #15 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Lordy. It's all a sign of rather extreme neuroses. Aint it. :D
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post #16 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 12:45 PM
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well if this intervention doesn't work, we'll have to resort to an exorcism
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post #17 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 01:54 PM
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post #18 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood

The fact is that DLP is burdened with a number of image artifacts. Some of which have not yet even been explored here.
And most all of these artifacts become less and less visible as pixels become smaller and smaller (or greater in number). It's just that simple.

Bob
Would you describe the artifacts that you are seeing so I know for sure what you are talking about?

The artifacts that I see in images from DLP PJs seem to be source related, not DLP related. They are in the DVD, and are not caused by the PJ. Some DVD movies are remarkabaly clear and clean, "Solaris", for example. Others have alot of video noise in them. If the noise were caused by the PJ or something else in the video chain, I would explect to see it all the time.

I have seen the same noise on CRT and on DILA images of the same movies. However, my viewing experience with CRT and DILA is very limited. (Perhaps others with more experience with these other technologies would provide their perspectives.) I will say this though, when I directly compared the SX21 to the SP7200 with the noisy movie, Matrix, they both showed the swarming pixel video noise which may be caused by Mpeg2 compression of a grainy print. However, the SP7200 showed it to a noticeably greater degree.

The SP7200 picture appeared sharper (no convergence errors from the single chip), and the SP7200s lighter gamma illuminated the shadows (where alot of this artifact resides) more than the SX21 did. So what is responsible for the difference in how visible the noise is? I am leaning towards the explaination that the increased sharpness and increased illumination of shadow detail of the particular DLP I used (and which I now own) made everything in the image more visible, including the video noise which is encoded on the DVD as part of the movie.

But I am not sure. I would like to hear other opinions as to what is responsible for this.
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post #19 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 02:09 PM
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"The artifacts that I see in images from DLP PJs seem to be source related, not DLP related." -

After having watched a fair bit of HDTV, I have to agree. Some dvd's might still look like crap even on a $ 30,000 3 chip Sony pj. While HDTV has very little to complain about picture wise on my lowly HT1000.

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post #20 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 02:17 PM
 
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I would think that both resolution and inproveed black levels (hence CR) would be a requirement for a better overall picture quality.
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post #21 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by glenned
Would you describe the artifacts that you are seeing.
Well, this will begin to describe it...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...67#post2755567

This may have some relationship to what is now being called "temporal contouring" that's being talked about in that other thread. But I can't say I've noticed what's being described in that thread.

What I do see, though, are other anomalies which I think are related to the objects sometimes looking pasted in or superimposed. One way to describe all of it in simple terms is an overall artificial look to the picture. I'm now thinking back to the many times those accustomed to only a CRT image have described it as "harshness" or "digital looking". I'm seeing that really for the first time with the HT1000 picture because I've never seen what I would describe that way until this. And prior to this I've owned and used three D-ILA's and eight different DLP projectors.

It cannot be explained by HDTV vs DVD. What I'm seeing is equally evident with both. Nor can it be explained as being caused by the source devices. Because I used exactly the same source devices with the X1.
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post #22 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 03:29 PM
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Darinp2 and Tryg are right. Jeff's generous position was essentially that as he doesn't like HDTV, we don't need higher resolution until HD-DVD comes out.

BTW, in the same vein of Robert and Bob, how did Darinp become Darinp2? Was this a software upgrade or an attempt to confuse HEAT? Enquiring minds want to know if more than one exorcism on this thread will be needed. :)


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post #23 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 03:33 PM
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Bob,

I followed the thread in your post above. It seems that your impression is confined to the hT1000 at this point.

On rare occasions I have seen the type of "artifact" that you are describing. I always presumed that it was in the source image, not created by anything in the hardware chain. It seems to me that you are seeing this effect in all video on your hT1000.

I didn't notice anything like this when I demoed the HT1000 (about 10 months ago).

It might be that you are particularly sensitive to the effect you are describing, and that most of us are oblivious to it. I haven't had the extensive experience with CRT that you have, so I may not have the same expectations about what makes an accurate image that you do.

Now that you see this problem on the HT1000, I wonder if you will find it on other digital PJs too, even ones where you had not noticed it before.

Even more importantly, I hope that I am not going to start seeing it myself, now that you have motivated me to look for it.

Glenn
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post #24 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Believe me, Glenn, the last thing I want to happen is for other folks to start noticing something like this.

I remember several years ago when Li On got hold of a DLP and began to notice the effects seen due to dithering. He almost single handedly got all the rest of us to seeing something that was not widely recognized prior to that. And then even long before that I remember reading the forum when the effects of DLP "banding" were first noticed and how that got everyone to looking for that too. That one got forum members so riled that they were almost coming to blows with each other (ask Larry Davis).

Bob
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post #25 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 04:23 PM
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Bob -

Sad to hear you are having problems. I just have a Sampo DVD player that plays all region disks (I have some UK and Korean disks) and has the Macrov turned off. I got it at 220-electronics.com, I think they are called "International" now at their site. Its hooked up via component. The picture is stunning, no artifacts of any kind except the occasional rainbow.

I prefer a sharp high contrast picture and the HT1000 delivers that for me. Sometimes in live performance disks in a dark auditorium with spotlights on the singer it looks a bit like the singer was photoshopped into the video. But I assume that's just the real dynamic range of the performance showing up on the screen, thanks to the HT1000.

To my eyes, it does look a bit unnatural on the screen because I have never seen a screen or CRT with such high contrast images before. In some cases it seems like there is more dynamic range than reality, the Hipower screen really punches out the brights on an 87" diagonal near the center of the screen sweet spot.

But I do really enjoy the images produced by this machine, and its barely been tweaked.

Mark
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post #26 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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That's an interesting coincidence, Mark. I sold my X1 to a local friend and he's using the same Sampo you're describing. He compared it to about a half dozen DVD players he had around the house and that Sampo without question gave him the best picture. He just ordered a Denon 1600 and should get it tomorrow. I'm going over tomorrow night and we're going to compare it to the Sampo both with his X1 and with my HT1k. Should be interesting.

p.s. I'm actually pulling for the Denon because he said if he likes it better he's gonna donate the Sampo to me. :)
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post #27 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 06:04 PM
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What a flattering thread. Unfortunately, my position is the converse of your recollection.

Most here know that I said, with standard DVD and a typical viewing distance (not sitting 5 feet in front of the screen), I contend DVD looks just as good on today's DILA as it would on a HD DILA chip. Overall picture quality is source limited (720 X 480) with DVD. HDTV......now that is different.

I won't argue with what you see but this has been my long term stance of mine, only to be disproved (or affirmed) when I get my hands on a HD PJ.

Great debate though, Robert.

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post #28 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree, Jeff. We do have enough pixel count now to display DVD with no compromises as long as we're viewing with picture sizes that do not reveal screendoor.
However, I now realize that this is true only with 3-panel display devices. And that it apparently does not hold true with DLP. I think it's almost to be expected that unwanted side effects will result from spinning a color wheel in front of a monochrome imaging chip. It's a Rube Goldbergish concept to start with.

I'm certainly not the first one to discover this. For example, we've been aware of dithering artifacts for some time now. And as you all know, Kuo recently emphasized that he feels this anomaly can be overcome by simply increasing the panel resolution. Even though the dithering will still be occurring, it will become less visible as pixels get smaller. And with a high enough pixel count it should be rendered invisible.

I'm speculating that what I'm seeing will probably be overcome with smaller pixels and greater densities as well.

Bob
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post #29 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 07:01 PM
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Bob
OT
Did you ever find a solution or is there a solution to the DVI I/P loss of contrast control with the HT1000?
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post #30 of 61 Old 10-08-2003, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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In one of the many CRT vs digital debates we've been having over in the CRT forum, AVS member kaanage makes a good point.

With CRT we see what correlates to picture elements, except the edges are "dithered".
Our fixed pixel displays on the other hand are painting images which are composed of rectangular pixels. Pixels with sharply defined straight edges.
He's convinced that this is another reason that we need greatly increased pixel density. If we're going to be looking at images made with straight edged pixels, those pixels are going to need to be much smaller and much greater in quantity to be able to completely fool our vision. What we have now just may not be creating that illusion to a satisfactory degree.

Bob
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