The OFFICIAL BenQ 8700+ thread. - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 953 Old 10-27-2004, 07:14 AM
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Regarding the DVI vs component inputs issue:

I get my HDTV via RCN cable service, and I normally use the DVI output at 720p. I've also looked at the output at 720p via component, and the difference is very subtle. On the sharpest source material - typically Discovery HD - the DVI input looks just a touch sharper. Otherwise, they seem equivalent (assuming you calibrate each one appropriately).
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post #62 of 953 Old 10-27-2004, 04:13 PM
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Oops. Just to clarify, I am trying to compare the output from these players via SDI modifications to them, not the standard devices.
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post #63 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello guys,

Have any of you 8700+ (or 8700) owners noticed any "smearing" during pans? Apparently some guy with an Optoma H77 has (on the Offical H77 & Screenshots thread). That there is a fix on firmware c12 or c14...etc. I've also seen this on an 8" CRT projector. Wondered if any of you saw this?

Also, are any of you using an iScanHD?

Thanks!!
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post #64 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 11:50 AM
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I see smearing quite frequently with the 8700+, especially with HD during pans.

Pete

The endless pursuit of perfection..or my idea of it anyways........
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post #65 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 12:27 PM
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Yes, I've also seen smearing during pans on HD. I have an HD DVR, so I tried pausing the picture during a pan - the smearing vanishes while the picture is paused. I guess that means that the smearing is definitely a projector effect, not something to do with the HD compression. I'm not using iScan.
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post #66 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 12:34 PM
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I always wondered if it was the source or the 8700+ that was smearing. I once told a BenQ tech about it and he wanted me to take a picture of it. Sounds like that would be nearly impossible.

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post #67 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1st on the Block
I always wondered if it was the source or the 8700+ that was smearing. I once told a BenQ tech about it and he wanted me to take a picture of it. Sounds like that would be nearly impossible.

Thanks for commenting guys! But that is disappointing to say the least. :P I haven't bought mine yet thank God. Does this only happen with HD material? Or have you guys noticed while watching DVDs too? And is BenQ going to offer a "fix" for this?

According to a friend of mine. An Optoma H77 fan. He is guessing it's the scaler inside the projectors. Which was why I asked if any of you were also using an iScanHD. I was at a local CRT-projector Club gathering in August. They were having a scaler shootout. And I "believe" when they used a certain scaler (maybe the IscanHD) the smearing affect was either lessened or eliminated. This was back in late August.

Also, this Optoma H77 friend mentioned that Optoma has offered new firmware. Verions C12 and C14. Which "should" either lessen or eliminate the smearing affect.

Does this bother you guys? And do you think this is common in all digital projectors?
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post #68 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 02:32 PM
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I suppose what you call smearing is the "False Contour Effect" which is common on all 1 Chip DLP projectors. Not much you can do about it...



Regards
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post #69 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 02:33 PM
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and I thought it was my eyes, noticed the smearing also, or would you call it ? "motion blur" ..........


or what Riddick said above.........
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post #70 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 03:04 PM
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What are you guys using for your HD sources, 720P or 1080i? Rogers Cable, Bell ExpressVu or Star Choice? Do you have a separate set of component cables, RGB or DVI going to the 8700+? Are you going through your receiver or processor? Just waiting for my daughter to finish watching a movie and I'll check it out on my setup and post something here.
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post #71 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 05:00 PM
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Clubfoot, I tried a simple mechanical component switcher before I got a DVI switcher. DVI is clearer/sharper (using a DTronics 4x1 switcher) from a Voom Motorola STB, and from a Bravo D1. I use 720p from the Bravo D1 and from the STB 720p looks about the same as 1080i.

Dan
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post #72 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 05:13 PM
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using Denon 1910 DVD thru DVI cable supplied with the 8700 at 1080i, and I often see what I would call motion blur sometimes on fast moving scenes........
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post #73 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 06:24 PM
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I use a DVI input from a D1 and an HD component input from a Sansung ST360. I use the same component input from my Pioneer 45a.

I had an 8700 for about a year and now have the 8700+. I have never seen smearing.

Carl

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post #74 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 07:26 PM
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Unfortunately, my ExpressVu HD went down tonight and I have to wait a few days for the new Smart Card. However, what I wanted to find out was if those using 720P were seeing motion blur versus those using 1080i and if the input source cable made a difference as well? I've watched the Olympics, hockey and football in HD and never noticed it on my 8700+, but then again I wasn't watching for it. As soon as the new card arrives I'll give it a very close look. thanks for all the responses.
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post #75 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys!

So, from the few postings on smearing (blurring), it sounds like there's not much we can do. That one of you hasn't seen it. And, that basically, this is a fact of life owning a 8700+ (and I suspect for any DLP projector owner).

I just read that if you have a scaler like the IScanHD that can support 72hz and that your projector can as well...using a SDI dvd player...smearing is greatly reduced. As well, that digital projectors dont' fall under this category. Only CRT projectors.

I was so set on purchasing a DLP projector. Knowing you can't avoid it is a tad discouraging. Perhaps I won't notice it if I'm not looking for it. Because in another thread one member mentions how he has seen smearing on his CRT-rptv too...I had never seen smearing on a CRT-rptv when watching dvds. So go figure.

Keep the comments and advice coming!
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post #76 of 953 Old 10-28-2004, 10:27 PM
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I forgot to mention I have not seen smearing on the 8700 over the 13 months I've had mine.

I suspect the source when I hear about "smearing" problems, unless we're talking some of the older or lower end LCD displays where it's unfortunately pretty obvious.

Dan
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post #77 of 953 Old 10-29-2004, 05:27 AM
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I had the X1 before the 8700+ and I never saw the smearing effect I have on the BenQ. All sources have stayed the same over this time.

Pete

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post #78 of 953 Old 10-29-2004, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by drapp1952
I forgot to mention I have not seen smearing on the 8700 over the 13 months I've had mine.

I suspect the source when I hear about "smearing" problems, unless we're talking some of the older or lower end LCD displays where it's unfortunately pretty obvious.

Dan

Hello Dan,

Thanks for posting!

How do you have your sources connected to your 8700? I read your profile. Are you using your DVI out from your Bravo D1? What are you using from your HD receiver, DVHS player....etc.?

Sounds more and more it might be the source as you mentioned. As some people are not seeing it. Some are not seeing it using other brands/models. Some get "hit upside the head" with the smearing. Heh...

Thanks 1st On the Block for your post too!

Later guys.
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post #79 of 953 Old 10-29-2004, 07:07 AM
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I recently acquired a Zektor DVS5.1 switch to hook up my Sony HD200, Denon 3910 and HTPC to the projector. The switch didn't seem to work with the 3910 so I unplugged it. However, when I now try to hook up the HTPC to the projector directly nothing shows up (i.e. blank screen, not even a bios screen). The Denon and Sony when hooked up directly work fine. Any ideas? I tried 2 different PCs that I know used to work with the projector. Is there a reset I can do to the projector? I had the projector calibrated and I would hate to lose my settings.
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post #80 of 953 Old 10-29-2004, 07:43 AM
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I do not see any "smearing" when the source is output at 720p. At 1080i, I do occasionally see some blurring in pans but it is never very severe or bothersome.

Quote:


Originally posted by Dark7pt1
Thanks guys!

So, from the few postings on smearing (blurring), it sounds like there's not much we can do. That one of you hasn't seen it. And, that basically, this is a fact of life owning a 8700+ (and I suspect for any DLP projector owner).

I just read that if you have a scaler like the IScanHD that can support 72hz and that your projector can as well...using a SDI dvd player...smearing is greatly reduced. As well, that digital projectors dont' fall under this category. Only CRT projectors.

I was so set on purchasing a DLP projector. Knowing you can't avoid it is a tad discouraging. Perhaps I won't notice it if I'm not looking for it. Because in another thread one member mentions how he has seen smearing on his CRT-rptv too...I had never seen smearing on a CRT-rptv when watching dvds. So go figure.

Keep the comments and advice coming!

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post #81 of 953 Old 10-29-2004, 09:17 AM
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I run 720p, 1:1 mapped from a Lumagen HDP thru DVI and I see smearing especially on HD frequently. Even before having the Lumagen and feeding the pj direct 720p or 1080i I saw smearing.

Pete

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post #82 of 953 Old 10-29-2004, 11:49 AM
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nobody at all have any comments on my questions about pairing the iscan HD with the 8700+ or which SDI ported DVD player works best with it?

What players/scalers are you guys/gals using?
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post #83 of 953 Old 10-29-2004, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by gthal
I do not see any "smearing" when the source is output at 720p. At 1080i, I do occasionally see some blurring in pans but it is never very severe or bothersome.

Thats very good to hear! But could you tell us about your components and how they are connected to your 8700+? Are you using component or DVI to the projector? Using an iScanHD? And are you watching dvds and HD programming in 720p?

Thanks!
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post #84 of 953 Old 10-29-2004, 06:29 PM
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Dark7pt1, I use a DTronics 4x1 DVI switcher for my D1 and Voom STB. I use component for the JVC 30000 but if I had a means to convert firewire to DVI (I know, the SIR-T165 is out there and I'm considering one - anyone know of a viable alternative?) I'd plug that in to the switcher as well.

Dan
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post #85 of 953 Old 10-30-2004, 06:04 AM
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For those who have never seen smearing on their 8700, let me say that it does not show up all the time. I can watch for a whole evening without seeing it once. The key factors for me seem to be:

1) It only shows up on HD channels. The sharper the channel, the easier the smearing is to notice.
2) I have yet to see it on a DVD.
3) It only shows up on reasonably fast pans across focused, high contrast objects. The perfect torture test is a medium fast pan across spectator's faces at a stadium. You won't see it on slow pans, and with very fast pans you may not notice it because it's harder to follow with the eye.
4) It's NOT like the blurring in film during a pan. It's more of a solarization effect, where there suddenly seems to be coarser steps in color and shade in the panning region.

I get HD channels via RCN motorolla cable box/DVR combo, feeding to the 8700+ through DVI. The cable box runs as 720p for all channels (so no scaling in the 8700).

My DVD player is an older Toshiba progressive model, connected via component cables and running at 480p.

I've also tried pausing the HD picture with the DVR while the blur is happening. The blurring effect seems to disappear while the picture is paused, so I don't think this is a source compression effect.
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post #86 of 953 Old 10-30-2004, 09:28 AM
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HD's sharper images - when the scene is relatively static - will make its deficiencies more apparent when the bit rate "Can't keep up," so to speak, with the information originally picked up by the HD camera (presuming the camera has this capacity in the first place), as when there's a pan of more complex scenes like crowds. Then you'll see artifacts that you may call smearing. Check out DVHS: even though it is also high def you'll not see smearing because it has almost double the bit rate of what HD satellite stations are transmitting.

So, we're back to the signal source, not the pj.

Dan
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post #87 of 953 Old 10-30-2004, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for you comments drapp1952/yegulalp! It's always good to hear different perspectives and experiences. In the end, I guess smearing is one motion artifact, that if seen is fairly inconsequential compared to other types. Is seen in some circumstances and not in others. Just a fact of owning a projector (digital or analog).

Have a great weekend guys!
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post #88 of 953 Old 10-30-2004, 12:56 PM
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Dan, I'm familiar with the source compression effects on HD that you mention. The summer olympics coverage was filled with motion-induced compression artifacts, and they were pretty glaring in my opinon. Those compression-related artifacts make the image look blocky and low-res in the area of motion.

The "smearing" effect I'm talking about looks quite different, and it doesn't seem to show up as often. I find it easiest to see on channels with the best signal quality - like Discovery HD or HDnet.

If you pause the image with a DVR, smearing goes away, but the compression -induced blocking artifacts are still there. That makes me believe that smearing is a projector effect, not a source effect.
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post #89 of 953 Old 10-30-2004, 11:28 PM
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Regarding smearing (hey, this is my first post in the thread! hmmm hehe), I'm thinking that the best way to try to reproduce the effect is to use a fast PC action game - such as UT2004 or some other first person shooter with lots of color and detail (NOT DOOM3 - it's too dark!). Looking around quickly and slowly, and see if you can spot any smearing. Works best if there are high detail and high contrast objects in view.

I haven't done this myself. Hmm, maybe you can use an XBOX and a copy of Halo or DOA3 or some other game with fast pans.
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post #90 of 953 Old 10-30-2004, 11:29 PM
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Oh BTW, if anyone wants the Benq 8700+ service manual, email me at rectalprolapse@gmail.com and I'll send it to you! Just make sure you have 3 megs free in your mailbox first!
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