Why we need 1080p projectors! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I have attached a human acuity chart for reference but it basically explains why we need 1080p projectors. Especially Mark J Foster and Art Sonneborn because they like to sit at approximately 1.05 screen widths!

Reference chart has been converted into Vertical acuity to make it easy to compare to your screen's aspect ratio and the native resolution of your projector

Basically if you have a 1080p projector it can allow you to sit almost a full screen width closer without any loss of resolution! Assuming you have a 1080 source also.

720p projector? sit inside 2.7 screen widths and you're not taking advantage of your full human visual acuity. This could possibly convince you "it's just a movie" and not actually real!

**reference chart assumes 20/20 vision 6/6 visual acuity and 1 arc minute (1/60th of a degree).

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post #2 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Fortunately in my theater I sit at 1.8 screen widths...

Ahhh visual perfection! right in the 1920 x 1080 sweet spot! Now all I need is a 1080p projector ... and Blue Ray ;)

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post #3 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 09:07 AM
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Excellent chart Tryg! You just answered a queston of mine that I posted on another thread :)


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post #4 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 11:08 AM
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Thanks for the chart - its a keeper for me.
Now I guess I have to wait for 4k at 4k to be truly happy.

ted
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post #5 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I modified my chart a bit to demonstrate the optimization of different projectors with the human visual acuity.

It basically shows what projector you should be using to take full advantage of the human visual acuity (this assumes source material matches native ability of projector). So if you have a 720 projector and sit inside of about 2.7 screen widths, the projectors native resolution is deficient for your eyes ability to resolve the detail. Likewise, at ~2.7 screen widths and back, you have optimized your visual acuity for the 720 projector. This isn't to say it can't look "good" inside 2.7 sceen widths, i'm just hopothesizing you just have a harder time convincing your brain it's "real".

So for 1080p projectors. Your visual acuity threshold is exceded at about 1.8 screen widths. At about 1.8 you're optimized. Sit further back and you're not necesarily optimized...but at least you cant tell the difference!

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post #6 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 12:54 PM
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This has probably been mentioned before, but one more thing on the "we don't have 1080p material, so we don't need 1080p projectors" argument I have seen multiple times. All of these digital projectors display progressively. We get 1080i material now. Just using those 2 facts, what resolution is needed in a digital projector to at minimum faithfully reproduce what is in the 1080i signal? Seems pretty obvious to me that no 16x9 resolution below 1920x1080 can do that.

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post #7 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I can draw a lot of conlusions from this data..one specifically comes to mind.

720 resolution is great for RPTVs. With these you will likely always sit 2.7 screen widths or more from the TV(and never benefit from higher resolution).
Although 1080p will likely be marketed to this group too(already is).

For Front Projection, its obvious. 1080 resolution gets closer to "optimizing" the real world seating distances we're use to.

1080p for me please! :)

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post #8 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 01:30 PM
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A far more sophisticated approach to determining appropriate seating distance to the screen than the "old"screen door factor :)


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post #9 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 02:33 PM
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higher pj res = less aliasing noise = more D.E.T.A.I.L.S.


case closed.

but guys, don't sit TOO close, you got also the SOUND SWEETSPOT to consider :D :D
which, in a theater, is about,... 30seats out of 400 ? :)


at 1920x1080 faces smile
at 3840x2160 eyes pop
at 7680x4320 PEOPLE THROW UP :D
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post #10 of 90 Old 09-15-2005, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Ultra High Definition should fit the "Unlimited" requirements of my chart just fine!

http://www.broadcastpapers.com/ibc20...osys-print.htm

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post #11 of 90 Old 09-23-2005, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Ultra High Definition should fit the "Unlimited" requirements of my chart just fine!

http://www.broadcastpapers.com/ibc20...osys-print.htm


Will we ever have a digital technology where we are not constrained by native resolution?

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post #12 of 90 Old 09-23-2005, 11:21 AM
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Tryg: It's interesting, but what it the data source. I mean the last chart thing I saw you post was from your crystal ball.


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post #13 of 90 Old 09-24-2005, 09:59 AM
 
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We need 1080p projectors so that one day we will have 1080p software.

It seems like several years ago we had 1080 and 720 projectors but almost no 1080 or 720 software. Now we have tons of it

I guess the answer you should be


If we build them they will come
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post #14 of 90 Old 09-24-2005, 10:14 AM
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The perfect spot would be somewhere on the other side of the screen. Then my wife couldn't find me while I watched Washington beat Dallas.

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post #15 of 90 Old 09-24-2005, 12:11 PM
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Vision corrected to 20/20 is not average for the general population; approximately 75 percent can be corrected to at least 20/20 and most better than that. For people under 35 years of age, most can be corrected to at least 20/15. The upper limit of about 20/10 is not unusual. If you want to check your own vision acuity, here are some vision charts you can use.

You can then take your actual visual acuity number and multiply that by the distance in Tryg's graph. For example, if you have 20/15 vision for a horizontal resolution of 1720 pixels, multiply (20/15) times 2.0 (for somebody with 20/20 vision) from his chart which means you can see that resolution as far away as 3 times the image width.

- David
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post #16 of 90 Old 09-24-2005, 09:38 PM
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Nice to know that there are forum members out there that take the time to help educate and provide good usefull info. Great idea that I already printed off. Thanks. :)
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post #17 of 90 Old 09-25-2005, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg
Ultra High Definition should fit the "Unlimited" requirements of my chart just fine!

http://www.broadcastpapers.com/ibc20...osys-print.htm


Will we ever have a digital technology where we are not constrained by native resolution?
Wow, 3.5 terabytes to hold 18 minutes of ultra high definition video. So it would take about 500 blue-ray disks to hold one 120 minute movie. It sort of drives home the point that HD-dvd and blue ray are both inadequate steps up from DVD. I mean, DVDs have been around for what - six years? In the computer era I would expect the storage capacity of disks to go up by more than a factor of 5 in that time.

Duane
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post #18 of 90 Old 09-25-2005, 11:48 PM
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So the mind boggling HD like 720P picture I am seeing projected 14' Wide and sitting as close as 17'( heck 12' isnt terrible for kids) is an illusion? My eyes must be out of whack or I am not understanding these graphs.

I hope someone in the Portland area gets one of these 1080P PJs, I cant wait to see a shootout pulling out selected DVDs from recent collections or even watching HD football or HDNet movies , I have shootout cabling ready if anyones interested . Or can bring a DP Mercury HD and spare cables so we can get to the end of this "720P just doesnt hold up " ordeal thats been going on all summer, and while we are at it we can get a CRT guy so we can see real blacks as well as a LCOS and the new SIM or Qualia all in the same room and have a party in a real Home theatre enviornment

I even have a pretty decent camera to take screen shots as comparison and let everyone judge for themselves whats the best bang for the buck. just think of the helpfulness of this when helping folks decide without all the pixy dust and science


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post #19 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
This has probably been mentioned before, but one more thing on the "we don't have 1080p material, so we don't need 1080p projectors" argument I have seen multiple times. All of these digital projectors display progressively. We get 1080i material now. Just using those 2 facts, what resolution is needed in a digital projector to at minimum faithfully reproduce what is in the 1080i signal? Seems pretty obvious to me that no 16x9 resolution below 1920x1080 can do that.
I agree with your statement Darin (I'd only nitpick and point out that most current HD sources do not represent true 1920 x 1080 resolution). However, I think your statement and this thread so far in general, does not represent the position of those that present the correct and intelligent argument that so mystifies the Trygs of the world ;), which is simply that 1080P is not the be all and end all of picture quality. Or to put in another way, it is one of several factors to consider when purchasing.

I posit the following :):

1. As much as we like to flatter ourselves that we are much more informed than the average consumer, hobbyists are every bit as susceptible to being in love with specifications as consumers are. As an example, I could be wrong, but I suspect that the Nikon D-70 is outsold by Canon's comparably priced higher resolution cameras even though my research, and quite a few knowledgeable authorities have shown that the Nikon takes the superior picture. Please note this statement is based on research done almost a year ago - the competitive landscape may have changed since then. I acknowledge of course that the statement that the Nikon is superior is opinion and I could be wrong but it leads to my next point. Which is that a fair number of people that have seen projectors such as the Marantz 3-chip have in fact found the picture to be competitive (with it’s own strengths and weaknesses) to the Sony Qualia but their voices have been all but drowned out because even most hobbyists can’t get past the resolution spec. Even here we are already seeing people who have very good reason to want to purchase the new Sim CX3 being mocked by the “resolution police” ;) because "spending 20K on a PJ that is 1280 x 720 is insane". But I suspect if most hobbyists were forced to do a blind comparison, quite a few of those "resolution police" would suddenly find the issue is not so clear cut.

2. If all other factors were equal (contrast, brightness etc.) for a given application, I can't imagine why any intelligent person would argue against 1920 x 1080. The REAL point in this discussion, the way the debate/question should be phrased if we are to engage in a discussion as opposed to Tryg's typically humorous hyperbole is "since all things are NOT equal, and since the majority of source quality still is not 1920 x 1080, and since seating distance and susceptibility to screen door vary tremendously, how important is resolution to the purchase versus other factors such as contrast, brightness, lens quality etc.

And if you phrase the question that way, there are many instances in which a person, because of their own needs and preferences, might prefer the picture of a projector such as the Sim CX3 because of its superior native contrast withOUT a digital iris, superior ANSI contrast, superior brightness, and superior MTF. Others will just as rightly prefer the 1920 x 1080 JVC Qualia or Ruby or JVC HD2K because of their absolute lack of screen door, silky smooth picture and superior ability to fully render HDTV material. Just as others will prefer their CRT for its silky smooth picture and outstanding on/off contrast and black level, regardless of whether it fully resolves 1920 x 1080.
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post #20 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 05:24 AM
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Oh no. No, no, no, no, no. I cannot believe I am about to agree with him. Damn you, QQQ!

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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post #21 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 05:31 AM
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At least you are right once in a while.
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post #22 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFerret
Oh no. No, no, no, no, no. I cannot believe I am about to agree with him. Damn you, QQQ!
At least you are right once in a while.
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post #23 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuaneAA
Wow, 3.5 terabytes to hold 18 minutes of ultra high definition video. So it would take about 500 blue-ray disks to hold one 120 minute movie. It sort of drives home the point that HD-dvd and blue ray are both inadequate steps up from DVD. I mean, DVDs have been around for what - six years? In the computer era I would expect the storage capacity of disks to go up by more than a factor of 5 in that time.

Duane
Just because some technologies metrics, such as transistor count and magnetic media disk capacity, follow a particular growth curve, why do you assume all must?

For optical media, the curve is right about where one would expect it.

-Steve
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post #24 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 06:29 AM
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Well, I like to sit at 0.25 screen widths away from the screen.

When can I expect those 13760x7740 projectors to start shipping?

CEDIA 2008?

:D

Mike

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post #25 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 07:44 AM
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QQQ: agree, you need to judge each projector uniquely and pass or fail it on it's picture and its own merits. On the other hand I find there are a lot of people that have the misconception that resolution does not matter and a 1080p image will not have any benefit over 720p. And I think that is totally wrong. Tryg might be a bit heavy handed, but I think people need to be educated on this subject. The ruby has 99% of what I want and was wishing for, on the other hand I want a bright pic and I don't think the ruby will be able to give me that and so I won't be buying one (sooner or later in 2006 someone will give me it all - 1080p, bright at least >1000lumens and hopefully>1500 lumens, great CR, <10K US$ MRSP) but at least I am not dumb enough to think just because I most likely won't be able to differentiate each pixel perfectly from my seating environment that it does not make a difference.
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post #26 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 08:23 AM
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I think resolution is very important. I think most of you agree as well or you’d own 480p projectors not 720p projectors. The argument that people make is that there isn’t any software for 1080p yet so why buy a 1080p projector. Well where is all the software for 720p? DVD’s are 480p. I know DVHS is available, but this is a niche product. If we apply the same logic there is minimal reason to invest in a 720p projector today except for the maybe 15-20 HD ‘lite’ channels that are available.

My perception of this board is the following: If DLP has something then it’s the best. If DLP doesn’t have something then it isn’t needed. For years, DLP has produced very dim projectors. Now all of a sudden with the $18,000 Sim2 C3X (without the $2,000 lens) we are told that brightness is the most important factor. Now we are told resolution doesnt matter its all about the brightness. I am just looking for some consistency.
Andy
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post #27 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
My perception of this board is the following: If DLP has something then it’s the best. If DLP doesn’t have something then it isn’t needed.
I would not say with this board, but must agree that there are a lot of people here that think that way
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post #28 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew P
For years, DLP has produced very dim projectors. Now all of a sudden with the $18,000 Sim2 C3X (without the $2,000 lens) we are told that brightness is the most important factor.
Andy
The best 1DLP 720p are < 360 lumens. No indication why the 1DLP1080p would be brighter than the increased size percentage.

The new anti IRIS sentiment is also very strange given that best 1DLPs ( Yamaha, Marantz, and Sharp ) achieve their high on/off via a static IRIS! :)
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post #29 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 09:16 AM
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.....back on subject, the visual acuity chart provided by Tryg, it would seem to me that both brightness and contrast would have to play a very important role with regard to the data presented. In other words, the eye can perceive and resolve detail considerably better in bright light and using high-contrast source material than in dim light with low contrast material (especially noted by us older folks trying to read a menu in a dimly lit restaurant). I suspect the chart data was obtained under certain bright light conditions and perhaps using black on white (max contrast) chart material. It would be very interesting to see how the data would change under varying degrees of lighting conditions and under varying degrees of contrast. This begs the question "Are the differences between 1080p and 720p only discernible among the brighter areas of a video picture?" This could also explain why a brighter, higher contrast picture seems more detailed than a more dim and less contrasty image, even though the source resolutions may suggest otherwise.

(Edited for typos)

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post #30 of 90 Old 09-26-2005, 10:57 AM
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Q^3,

"As much as we like to flatter ourselves that we are much more informed than the average consumer, hobbyists are every bit as susceptible to being in love with specifications as consumers are."

It's precisely the hobbyists that *are* susceptible to specomyopia. Most consumers could care less, or even be tech averse, and just look at the picture.

Anthony,

"I find there are a lot of people that have the misconception that resolution does not matter and a 1080p image will not have any benefit over 720p."

Methinks you exaggerate. I can't remember anyone ever saying that without caveats about viewing distance or the other important PQ parameters.

Noah
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