Will LCD walk right past DLP in contrast? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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From Jasons Report

Hitachi front projector
"First on my stop was Hitachi. They had much of the same stuff but they did have this projector. It was the first I had seen it. It is the HDP-J52. LCD, 1280x720 resolution, high contrast of 7000:1 , dual iris control (lamp and lens)."

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/CIMG1462.JPG


and now new LCD panels that do 1,000,000:1 CR. True Black!

"Sharp took the cake for what I saw today with innovation. They had 2 things that blew me away. First, 1,000,000:1 contrast! Yuppers. A new prototype LCD panel (about 30" or so). They demoed it with lights on, and then off. When off, you could literally not see any bars on the sides whatsoever. They showed various clips that kept changing the width of the image, and each time it looked like the physically set was changing size. It was simply put...true black. The shadow details were amazing as well as the white levels. "


http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/CIMG1505.JPG


It seems there is no stopping the Liquid Crystal for improvement. At this point I have my bets on LCD eventually being the "ultimate" in picture quality.

Will all reflective devices eventually succumb to LCD? LCOS has them beat right now, but at the rate LCD is improving there's absolutuely zero doubt in my mind LCD will surpass everything.
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post #2 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:17 AM
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Hi Tryg

Sorry to say I talked to Jason and its a numbers game. While this is a nice LCD it does not come close visually to the contrast and blacks of DLP. DLP has the better image. The only LCD that surpassed DLP was the panel from sharp. Same technology Darin saw a few months back. Now thats Amazing. If they can put that in a FP box there will only be one forum and one topic here at AVS.
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post #3 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:19 AM
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Tryg

Anything on BiNA6 or C2fine?

Tony
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post #4 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger
Hi Tryg

Sorry to say I talked to Jason and its a numbers game. While this is a nice LCD it does not come close visually to the contrast and blacks of DLP.
Indead a nembers game at this point. But those numbers will eventually translate into "better picture"

The pace of LCD's improvements is astounding. If it continues the choice will be obvious. Performance and price.

About black level... even if LCD reaches 100,000:1 CR, DLP may still have a better black level. Why? The LCD will simply be brighter.

baipai,

Expect new models around March with BiNA6 or C2fine. And units by Cedia. I'm VERY excited.
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post #5 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger
Hi Tryg

Sorry to say I talked to Jason and its a numbers game. While this is a nice LCD it does not come close visually to the contrast and blacks of DLP.
Indead a nembers game at this point. But those numbers will eventually translate into "better picture"

The pace of LCD's improvements is astounding. If it continues the choice will be obvious. Performance and price.

About black level... even if LCD reaches 100,000:1 CR, DLP may still have a better black level. Why? The LCD will simply be brighter.

Expect new models around March with BiNA6 or C2fine. And units by Cedia. I've VERY excited.
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post #6 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:31 AM
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No BiNA6 or C2fine in a FP at the show. Nothing really new in LCD FP. Fingers crossed for Cedia Sept. I want a sub 6k 1080 FP for my living room.
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post #7 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:35 AM
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Tryg

The numbers are so inflated while DLPs numbers are more realistic. DLP does not have to lie to make a sale.
Will LCD improve as you say, of course. Competing tech will advance as well. They will not sit still. Everything will always progress in parallel fashion. So far LCD is by far the weakest link. I would love nothing more then to see any one of the technologies spring ahead of all thee others but my guess is we will see a new technology all together that will beat them all before Lcos/SXRD fixes their shortcoming and LCD makes any real advancements.
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post #8 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger
Tryg
I would love nothing more then to see any one of the technologies spring ahead of all thee others but my guess is we will see a new technology all together that will beat them all before Lcos/SXRD fixes their shortcoming and LCD makes any real advancements.
This may be truer than we all know. Maybe not new technology, but maybe some hybrid. First person to deliver a laser based product will make the "Ruby Revolution" look like childs play.

Yes they all have theri shortcomings but for years many (including myself) counted out LCD. Yet every few years they come up and match the competition. Now they may have the technology to excede the competition.

Panny AE900 amazing? yes
Fajitsu 711 amazing? yes

yet these projector are 2 LCD evolutions back.

Prepare yourself for the new ones. They simply may change the market landscape if priced competitively.

We may all look back at "reflective based" microdisplays in 5 years and go "duh, what were we thinking?" wasn't it obvious something that shootes directly at the screen would eventually be superior?
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post #9 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:53 AM
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Im waiting and prepared. So far no show but as soon as it gets here I am buying one. Until then DLP is everywhere. They dominate the entire market. LED RP sets will really boost sales. As much as you hate DLP I have to say they are steam rolling over everything else. They are everywhere and have something for everyone.
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post #10 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I dont hate DLP.

My bias comes only from the fact that it is great technology but they have never really "went for it" to demonstrat how amazing it could be. Very slow incremental steps with MASSIVE marketing hype.

I just think a technology with that many entities working on them there could be something more Revolutionary.....not Evolutionary.

I will admit DLP from a business standpoint is the money making king! It's almost a no brainer for a business to build them.
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post #11 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 09:04 AM
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Don´t confuse htps lcd with lcd direct view.

The D5 HTPS LCD contrast number game is inflated and not to be directly compared with dlp. That is one discussion. Here dlp is superior but D5 lcds are not bad.

The Mega contrast from Sharp is direct view lcd that did have superior blacks to almost anything. Perhaps a competitor to SED? What makes this interesting is that lcds can shut light off completely. I hope it is transferrable to projectors.

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post #12 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
I dont hate DLP.
"Cough" (under breath) Bu77$%!& "cough" :D :D

You have to hand it to Venus de Milo..., otherwise she would starve.

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post #13 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 09:07 AM
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What is sad is we have 3 technologies and out of the three not one is a clear winner. With that your optimistic predictions are welcomed regardless what it may be. If & when it does materialize Im sure all of us will be in line if its affordable otherwise DLP will still be untouched and remain the choice for the masses.
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post #14 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson
What makes this interesting is that lcds can shut light off completely. I hope it is transferrable to projectors.
Exactly!

What is the theoritcal CR limit for all three technologies?

LCD
DLP
LCOS

It appears LCD may eat the others lunch in the end.
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post #15 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 09:12 AM
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Amen to that Alan. Affordability is the key. No matter how good a technology, if the pricing is such that it is affordable only to the financial elite, it is inconsequential, IMO. Just like Tryg, I am format agnostic. I don't care if LCD or DLP or LCOS in all of its many forms wins, and I will go further and say that I don't even care if they ALL win. As long as at least one of them gives us universally acclaimed excellence in performance, I will be satisfied. If they eventually all do it, so much the better.

You have to hand it to Venus de Milo..., otherwise she would starve.

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post #16 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 09:15 AM
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The prototype LCD panels with unlimited contrast look sweet though. Proof the future is lookng bright. The downside to all this new stuff is we've been seeing these kinds of break through products at Cedia and CES for years. Where are they. They never seam to materialize and when they do they are priced beyond reach. Darin and a few others here visited a company with the same flat panel technology. They said it would be easy to implement into a FP. My bet is 3 years from now we will be lucky to be able to buy this as a consumer in a flat panel 27".
The 40" will be 10K with none of this making it to FP.

Our talks and technology battles will still be going in circles :)
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post #17 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 09:19 AM
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By the way heres your typical reaction from CES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenLand
Great post Steve! (and Andrea!)

I couldn't match your review Steve but I'll second any kudos on the Optoma's. I didn't ask the screen info, but I can tell you they were *Bright* and CR was outstanding. Best of the show easily IMO.

The LCD's were all... LCD's. Too much SDE for me and my setup. The Epson looked nice at 1.5 SW's.

The Canon booth had a surprising amount of space dedicated to the SX50. Their were two theaters and another production unit you could see plus an "cut-away" version so you could see the guts.

Both SX50 setups were poor and didn't look very good at all.

Ken
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post #18 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiGuy1
Just like Tryg, I am format agnostic. I don't care if LCD or DLP or LCOS .
Glad to see you recognize this.
My recent years bashing of DLP only comes from them not meeting my expectations of the technology.

Also I just got off the phone with Darin (my spy)

3 chip 1080p DLP non existant at CES
1 chip models available summer which we both believe means CEDIA.

Darin's impression is they are behind the curve. It's pretty clear they were taken off guard by the Ruby.

BTW Darin loves DLP and is a definate member of the alliance. ;)

AS far as the 7000:1 Hitachi? He couldn't tell much as it was in poor conditions and being shown on the Supernova :( What a waste of a potentially good demo. Oh well it's only 720p :p
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Forget defending contrast ratio claims for Hitachi. D5 lcds offers good performance and great flexibility and a low price. I have a tw600. Native D5 contrast is only 1k:1 or so. The Hitachi has been reviewd in Sweden. Calibrated you get less than 2k:1 with an auto iris, with a fixed iris less than 800:1 but with a crazy calibration and a non workable setting for the auto iris more than 10k:1 was measured.

Sxrd and dlp has a much higher native contrast.

Alan G.
I think the the technology darinp2 saw earlier was by Brightside. That is a different technology. They use many bright leds to have super brightness and off for black. They can control the leds regionally with the video signal to get superb simultaneous contrast. The lcd is a normal one with only 400-800:1 or so. Since the leds can be turned off the contrast could be rated infiniate.

Sharp acutally has an lcd that by itself reches a very high contrast.

The biggest difference is that Brightside is super bright for 100IRE.

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post #20 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 10:08 AM
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It will debate at Cedia and will blow with Ruby out of the water. It will be priced higher of course but you will get the superior performance for that money. When that day comes you will see the elitest on this forum buying it. The price will not stop them and that will serve as a testament that 3 chip 1080 DLP will be king.

1080 1 chip DLP for the same street price or less will give the Ruby equal performance competition and will outsell the Ruby at enormous numbers whether you me or Darin like it or not.
I would not call that getting caught with their pants down. They are laughing all the way to the bank:)
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post #21 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 10:15 AM
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There has been a report about D6 in Audio-Vision (german magazine). They explained that with D6 the LCD-technology will completely change. Instead having light passing through the LCD as the default value, black will be the default value as power-off status. So, when power is off you have true black (they claim). Instead of Twisted Nematic, vertical alignment will be used.
With this comes a different pixel-structure which should reduce SDE as well. The contrast shall raise by the factor of 4-5 to today's contrast.

At the same time the size of the panels will shrink to 0.9" for 1080p, so that in 2007 the units will be priced around 5000 $ (stated by Epson Germany).
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post #22 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 10:16 AM
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Getting tired of all the worshipping of Ruby? I actually think it is being heavily criticized and people end by saying .. oh it is the best digital yet.

Tryg is a bit over the top on Ruby , sorry but it is true, however I think if 1080p 1DLP comes in force in late spring I think it is fair to say that TI did not time it perfectly. They can still laugh on their way to the bank but they could have laughed even more.

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post #23 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 10:35 AM
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Ohlson

I think regardless what we think these will be a huge hit selling to the masses while we are sharing our opinions on the forums. They are just as affordible as the Ruby and will look just as good but most important is you will see them everywhere.
By the way I just recommended a Ruby to a customer while Im typing this, Im on the phone :)
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post #24 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson
Tryg is a bit over the top on Ruby , .

????? this isn't even a Ruby thread!

Over the top? Quite the contrary. I have seen the Ruby. I have also seen ALL the other available products. My clear statement is that is it the best picture currently available in a production HT projector. Many other WELL qualified individuals agree.

You guys should stop assailing me.

Or, at the very least bring your opinions over to the Ruby forum where I welcome you to challenge ANY of my findings.

Does anyone else have any comments on LCD and it's amazing progression of contrast? If not, I'm probably done on this thread :(
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Yeah; LCD's amazing progress in contrast is like being excited about ocean cruising and saying the Titanic is the fastest ship on water.

The fact remains that all of the contrast progress provides little resolution to the key issue(s) affecting long-term LCD projector ownership; it is a fundamentally (and crucially) flawed display technology that may go past DLP - but DLP can and does look better as it ages.

It's not enough to consider LCD image quality under the guise of the 'we'll upgrade before it really deteriorates' mantra.

We are a soft market and until there is a consumer trend that says we want LCD projectors that still look good at 5000 hours we won't get any.

And that's exactly what we are getting - short-term toys that have high novelty value and no staying power.

LCD is a lemon - and getting all excited about CR while ignoring the detrimental and rapid aging effect of day-to-day use is a nonsense.
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post #26 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
I have also seen ALL the other available products. My clear statement is that is it the best picture currently available in a production HT projector. Many other WELL qualified individuals agree.

I am obviously not stating they are price competitive, but the Runco SC-1 uncategorically, flat out destroys the Ruby in any criteria you care to evaluate. Period. End of discussion. But maybe you haven't "seen" that one yet? And it is in production. As a matter of fact, if you want, I will sell you two for a double stack if you'd like, since one may not have enough light output for you :D, and I'll even install them for a nominal fee! :)

You have to hand it to Venus de Milo..., otherwise she would starve.

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post #27 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 11:34 AM
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I would like to see a 4 panel lcd projector with 2.35 panels.Don't forget that U of Vancover showed a lcd that got 70'000 to 1 and they said it would cost them 0$ to and.
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Tryg
Both you and I would like to see lcos+lasers happening. My command of the english language means that my comment directed at you was offensive when I thought it wouldn´t be.

The D6 information is interesting. Lcos also has black as the standard state. I expect D6 not to have better contrast than sxrd perhaps equal. One big new thing is the addressing of the pixels.

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post #29 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiGuy1
I am obviously not stating they are price competitive, but the Runco SC-1 uncategorically, flat out destroys the Ruby in any criteria you care to evaluate.
You are right about that the $250,000 pricetag certainly eclipses the Ruby at under $10,000.


There is a slight problem though. The Ruby with over 5 times the contrast might pose a problem. I think It's pretty obvious what people would choose even if at the same price.

2800:1 vs 15000:1 ? please. another ridiculous claim from a DLP salesman :(

Please, can we talk about the merits of LCD?
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post #30 of 160 Old 01-07-2006, 11:51 AM
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I actually don't qualify, as I have never sold an SC-1. I wish.

I have seen the SC-1 in action, and I have seen the Ruby, though not at its best. IMO the Ruby can't hold a candle to the SC-1, but the post was TIC. You're right about what people would choose if they were the same price, though. Clearly, it would be the SC-1. :D Even my humble home theater will have a 10' 8" wide Screen Research CP2 2.35:1 screen, so I would be better served with the extra light output, I think. Don't get me wrong, I think the Ruby looks great, I am just yanking, deservedly, your chain for making such blanket statements. It's all good, buddy.

You have to hand it to Venus de Milo..., otherwise she would starve.

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