Samsung H710AE??? 4000MRSP - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabillyhop View Post

I think that the confusion on the amount of lens shift may result from not specifying the zoom when quoting %'age relative to image height...I suspect that 5% above the screen and 10% above the screen may both be true statements, one being true at minimum zoom and the other at maximum zoom.

I haven't mounted the projector yet as the room is still under construction, but if I have time I will try this on the weekend from a table top and let you know if my assumption is correct.

Good points--I'll be looking for the results of your little experiment. What you note makes sense, though.
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:06 PM
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Viewing distance = 3 x screen height leads to a viewing angle of 33 deg, right in the middle of the 30 deg angle described above, and the THX max recommended angle of 36 deg.

PS But the difference between 30 deg and 36 deg is not trivial: for a 8 ft wide screen (110"diag), the former suggests a viewing distance of ~ 15 ft, and the latter gives a bit over 12 ft.
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

This is also very disappointing for me, as this was a major consideration for my home theater set up (I'm currently using a Panasonic AE900). I had gone for the IN76 but then realized that it lacked lens shift, so I switched to the Samsung. Now that the Samsung's lens shift advantage seems to have fallen by the wayside, which is the superior projector? Brightness and color fidelity are more important to me than contrast. I am projecting onto a 123" Stewart Firehawk G2 screen. Any thoughts?

From what I've gleaned from these threads (and individual discussions with those who have seen this projector vs. competing products) it seems reasonable to conclude that:

1. The color fidelity of this projector is outstanding, and perhaps its greatest strength.
2. Brightness is also seemingly equivalent to the IN76, and certainly much better than you might conclude by looking at tech specs, which seem to overestimate substantially the relative output of many competing projectors.
3. Darks might be a bit better on some projectors (e.g., the DC3s like the 7100) but shadow detail on this projector is second to none.

Keep in mind that I haven't received my projector, but these conclusions are a consensus of other impressions.

KK
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:33 PM
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Here is a link were Mark Robinson from Stewart posted on the Firehawk G2
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=585541&page=4
post #112.

Brad
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:36 PM
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Bill,

The THX max is for film projection, not HDTV displays. Digital cinema wants a 4k image standard to compete with film. That's a 2,000 x 4,000 pixel image. Film exhibition standards and practices do not fully equate with HDTV.

Three picture heights is a nice simple number, probably a more suitable term of reference for ease of communication and calculation. However, that figure is for a 1920 pixel image not 1280. The 720p format has half the resolution of 1080i/p.

Some of these posters should consider raising their screen if the height of the projector and lens shift are such big issues. SMPTE's human factors research allows for a maximum image height of 15 degrees to screen center and 35 degrees to screen top.

A year ago, this projector was selling for about $12,000.00 retail. It's a terrific value. It's replacement has the newest 720p chip and color wheel, plus some additional improvements. The model 800 sells for $12,000.00.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:47 PM
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After more viewing I think my earlier concern regarding an orange cast to reds was largely unfounded. I'm still wondering if anyone has insights as to running Blu Ray DVD's through the DVI? Will the DRM prevent viewing a high def signal?

Thanks
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Old 03-31-2006, 02:57 PM
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The DVI input is HDCP compliant.
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Old 03-31-2006, 03:00 PM
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Thank you George and thank you for the links.
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Old 03-31-2006, 03:04 PM
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My intention is not to drag this thread through the mud, but is everyone ignoring the fact that this PJ has reported banding issues?

I am ready to buy a PJ right now and this one was at the top of the list. I watch this thread constantly to see if anyone has worked around this problem. But it seems to go unmentioned.

Was the banding reported in the other thread only on that unit or is everyone experiencing it through the DVI input?

It has been reported in the other thread that this is simply an issue with the 8 bit processing of the DVI port, however, I have been looking at quite a few PJ's lately (some with DVI connections) and have not seen this type of banding over DVI.

Am I blowing this issue out of proportion? Are you guys not seeing the banding? If you don't have the banding problem, could you post your source equipment?

Like I said, I'm ready to purchase now, I just want to be sure this PJ is the one...

Thanks

Adam
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Old 03-31-2006, 03:25 PM
 
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Adam I was the one who made the most recent posting of banding/blotchy artifacts, and I'm hoping that my experience isnt a widespread one, I happen to be very sensitive to these types of artifacts, you must make this distinction for yourself, its very possible that my experience as well as the few others are isolated ones, dont forget there is more than just the projector involved, other components play a part in producing the image including source and source player, settings and so on, FOR ME, I decided to step away from 8 bit processing and take advantage of 10 bit processing since it seems like a waste to have a denon 5910 and not take advantage of that, its theorized that 10 bit will minimize some of these types of artifacts such as the banding which really never bothered me before because I know that that is a limitation of dvi and I see that on my current projector but it doesnt make it objectionable to me what is objectionable is the moving mass of blotchy, blocky artifacts that I see and so I have decided to step into a higher form of processing mainly 10 bit, as I said your mileage may vary, purchase from a reliable dealer whether it be AVS or TVauthority, they want you to be happy with your purchase, they both have an excellent return policy, I was able to a great deal of testing and only put 7 hours on the unit. I can attest to the strengths of the projector that all have discussed here, the colors are fantastic and the image is very revealing, maybe too revealing because it seems that this projector can be so revealing that with the right setup may reveal the very weaknesses and limitations of 480i dvd & dvi , some may be bothered by it and others may not. You indicated that you wanted to be sure that this projector was "the one" the only way to do this is to experience it for yourself.
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Old 03-31-2006, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

They also determined in these physical tests that a wider aspect ratio was needed, not so much as a replica of the movie shape, but to keep bandwidth from being too great. A 30 degree field of view on a 4:3 screen required a greater than 30 MHz bandwidth, but if you were to cut the top or bottom off you could hold to what was at that time the limit of their devices.

I wonder, also, if 4:3 was abandoned partially due to the the more pleasing golden rectangle (~1.618:1), especially since the first considered aspect ratio was 5:3, or 1.66. Not only is it a 'magic' mathematical number, but it was, by the greeks, considered the most pleasing rectangular shape for the human eye.

In math: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GoldenRatio.html
In history: http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/....cgi?read=4201
In imagary: http://fotogenetic.dearingfilm.com/g...rectangle.html

This thread is probably not the best place to continue this discussion, but fun, nonetheless.
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Old 03-31-2006, 03:42 PM
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From GeorgeAB:
"Some of these posters should consider raising their screen if the height of the projector and lens shift are such big issues. SMPTE's human factors research allows for a maximum image height of 15 degrees to screen center and 35 degrees to screen top."

That's pretty far up. It may be 'allowable' by SMPTE standards but I'm stretching every penny to obtain an immersive and comfortable environment. In my case, the Samsung would produce a 16:9 picture (distance from lens to screen of 14.5') with 4.5 degrees to screen center and for a 2.35:1 picture the center would be 7 degrees up from eyeball. Less than perfect but probably acceptable. I guess this means no laying on the floor with pillows.

In-Walls! Manufacturers Please Speak Out.
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Old 03-31-2006, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gutierrez View Post

My intention is not to drag this thread through the mud, but is everyone ignoring the fact that this PJ has reported banding issues?

I am ready to buy a PJ right now and this one was at the top of the list. I watch this thread constantly to see if anyone has worked around this problem. But it seems to go unmentioned.

Was the banding reported in the other thread only on that unit or is everyone experiencing it through the DVI input?

There are enough reports of this problem to be concerned (relative to the total number of owners reporting their findings on this forum). I know that I'm concerned that there are either some defective units making it past QC, or there is a problem with any number of source combinations.

For those not experiencing this phenomenon, it is easy to ignore. However, it was clearly bad enough for some to have returned their projectors.

I'd sure like to see the issue addressed.
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Old 03-31-2006, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gutierrez View Post

My intention is not to drag this thread through the mud, but is everyone ignoring the fact that this PJ has reported banding issues?
Thanks

just want to make sure since I posted a bunch in that thread I saw some probs but they were not banding

I have seen two scenes that had artifacts, but since then no probs
but I have not seen any banding issues just the two blocking issues
and as I have said the pic is so nice I am willing to live with maybe and a big maybe seen one small issue for the great color and pic this pj gives overall
and I really only noticed this when looking for it
having to go back and replay the first one for my wife and try to point it out should tell you how small a prob it was
conversation was kinda like no honey look here wait I will do it again ok one more time did you see it ?? no OK let me try again OH cool OK you think you saw it

also I think one of the probs was off the Oppo player which has known macro blocking probs with some other components

in this price range everything has its compromise and the compromise is with certain components and certain signals that one might see banding etc..
but again the pic quality is so good that I notice so much more detail and everything else that I would much rather live with the superior pic quality all the time than be looking at muddy blacks all the time or noisy shadows all the time etc....
just watching band of brothers again on episode 6 and I really cant believe how much nicer this is than my plasma and for sure my other sharp dt-400

so maybe the analogy would be to say if shadow detail is not as good in another PJ should one be worried ?? if this is the case then almost all projectors will fall short of this one in the price range

also one thing that DNIe can also make things look funny ?? to me its like any fake extra boost usually has a down side kinda like the brilliant color or whatever they call it on the HD72 and the mits HC3000 looks good on a few bright scenes but the rest of the time causes more probs than its worth
turning that on I noticed that it can make certain bright scenes look a bit fake
so for me it stays off
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Old 03-31-2006, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Bill,

The THX max is for film projection, not HDTV displays. Digital cinema wants a 4k image standard to compete with film. That's a 2,000 x 4,000 pixel image. Film exhibition standards and practices do not fully equate with HDTV.

Three picture heights is a nice simple number, probably a more suitable term of reference for ease of communication and calculation. However, that figure is for a 1920 pixel image not 1280. The 720p format has half the resolution of 1080i/

George, Thanks again for your patient (and helpful) discussion; I'm an amateur in HT and just trying to learn. But yes, I am focused on 1080p rather than 720p--currently have a Mits 73" 1080p dlp rptv (like it immensely, just planning for something BIGGER next round!)--and will actually be waiting for a single chip 1080p dlp pj, like the Optoma HD81 that will be out this year, or one from Samsung (next year?). So I'm used to the RP crowd talking about '1.5 x screen diagonal' as the optimum for the 'full immersive experience' with 1080p rptv's. [1.5 x screen diagonal = 3 x screen ht for 9x16 screens.] With good HD sources, sitting at 9 ft from my present set (1.5 x diagonal) is great, and 8 ft away (1.3 x diagonal) is even better (IMO); closer than this is too close even for me! All of which confirms, I guess, that viewing distance is a very individual matter, and one size does not fit all. My tentative plans are for a 110" screen, sitting ~ 12 ft away (~ 1.3 x diagonal ~ 2.7 x screen ht).
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Old 03-31-2006, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honu View Post

...so maybe the analogy would be to say if shadow detail is not as good in another PJ should one be worried ?? if this is the case then almost all projectors will fall short of this one in the price range...

Not quite the same as the rather pronounced banding that some have posted pictures of, and others have also experienced.

Let's at least try and compare apples to apples.
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Old 03-31-2006, 06:30 PM
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bubbawilly

having that pj and knowing that the thread only Romy101 posted pics ?
and he was using a Oppo which has know issues and HD boxes are not all known to be the best ? and cable and ?? to many variables to call it a prob from one person posting pics
nobody else posted pics ?some then stated thats what they see with all dvi connections ?
and it is a very common thing with DVI
and only one other person I think it was brad who saw some rings around the sun ?? now was that a DVI issue or not ? we dont know really

so is it a DVI limit and this PJ is just so clean and good its showing the dvi limits ?

or is it a actual problem ? I guess that is what I meant to say and if it is a DVI limit then its something that we all have to live with some more than others on super clean sets that show the weakness of a signal and wont fuzz it over like my sharp ?

I just am not sure its a prob with the PJ ??

and I still stand by my thoughts of thinking its a DVI issue just like noise in dark areas etc.. certain projectors show certain weakness more than others thats all this one shows the weakness of dvi while others are weaker in other areas

hope that makes more sense
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Old 03-31-2006, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabillyhop View Post

I think that the confusion on the amount of lens shift may result from not specifying the zoom when quoting %'age relative to image height. As you zoom this projector in and out, the top of the image does not move (assuming a ceiling mount). Therefore the % of screen height that the lens can be placed above the image varies with the zoom. At maximum zoom it is a smaller %'age than it is at minimum zoom. In other words, the maximum height that you can place the projector would be achieved when the projector is at minimum zoom, i.e. farthest from the screen. I suspect that 5% above the screen and 10% above the screen may both be true statements, one being true at minimum zoom and the other at maximum zoom.

I haven't mounted the projector yet as the room is still under construction, but if I have time I will try this on the weekend from a table top and let you know if my assumption is correct. I'm pretty sure it will be... meaning that this projector may fit in more room situations than some of you are thinking.

My room happens to be set up perfectly to do this test. I have an 11' ceiling and the projector is curerntly about 6-7' off the ground.

I need to do this test before I mount it properly, so I'll do it tonight. It'll really test me wife's patients! But I'll explain to her how important this is to the bretheren here

~Jay
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Old 04-01-2006, 02:24 AM
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I decided to measure lens shift range.

The Projector is about 160" from the screen, the lens is 80" above the floor. The projector is as level as I could get it.

I zoomed the image to it's smallest size:
With the lens shift all the way down the top of the image was 75" above the floor.
With the lens shifted all the way up the bottom of the image was 85" above the floor

I zoomed to make the image as large as possible:
.... and to my supprise..
With the lens shift all the way down the top of the image was 75" above the floor.
With the lens shifted all the way up the bottom of the image was 85" above the floor

The results were the same whether zoomed in or out.

I'm glad I did this test, my plan was to mount the projector much higher. I think it is in a good spot now.

~Jay
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:02 AM
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Thanks, Jay. This was very helpful for me. Our room is being built in an attic. To try and preserve optimal viewing distance to the front row of around 12.5' we'll need to have a slight ceiling slope at the front (screen) wall that results in a maximum plate height of 7', which will dictate the maximum height of the screen. Currently that will mean the top of the screen itself (minus border) will be at just under 81" (planning on a Carada Criterion in BW). It looks like I'll probably be able to mount the projector no higher than around 84".

Our original plan for mounting the projector called for a 15' distance to our screen, which would have placed it over the 12" riser and a danger to anyone over 6'. To help us with installation, our builder was going to place a 2x2' plate at framing so we'd have some flexibility in positioning. Given this enlightening discussion, we'll now have the PJ just in front of the riser above the first-row seatbacks. Since we hope to move forward soon, this discussion came just in time--thanks to all who clarified this issue.

KK
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Old 04-01-2006, 07:41 AM
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Iam at work and going off memory (if Ken gets on today he has true numbers). The top of the viewing surface is 14.5" from ceiling. The top of the focus ring is 15" from ceiling. The center of the lense is 18" from ceiling. Front of lense is 14ft from screen. 83.75" wide. When moving the lense down all the way there is still 3.5" of shift left.

Brad
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Old 04-01-2006, 09:44 AM
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Looks like the Manual is very close Jay got the image to shift 5" above at 13.3' the
manual lists the shift at 4.9" at 13.6' this from the center of the lens.
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Old 04-01-2006, 09:55 AM
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Can someone please help me clarify all this info?? I have not purchased this pj yet, but it is my top pick at this moment.

My intention was to ceiling mount at about 12 ft. back. I have not purchased a screen yet but I am hoping that a 100"- 106" screen may work in my HT. First row of seating at 11'6" and second row at 14'6" or so. The second row will be on a riser-I'm thinking about 9 or 10 inches due to low ceiling and AC ducting along one wall. My room is 12'6" x 20'6" with only 7 ft height. Will my plans work with this unit in the light of new understanding of limited lens shift??

BTW, Honu, thank you for the valuable input. I appreciate your insight given your artistic eye!! Color and clarity are very important to me in assessing the PQ!!!
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Old 04-01-2006, 10:39 AM
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Kamull at 12' back a 106" screen will work..., but just barely. You will be at the largest screen size for 12' throw with the 106."

If your projector is flush mounted to the ceiling, your screen will need to be mounted such that the top of the image area is within about 6" of the ceiling. The lens shift will give you enough to move about 4" outside the image area of the screen, but if you do that you will lose some image quality. You never really want to be at the extreme ends of either zoom or lens shift.

So your projector will be mounted between the seating rows, so it should not be in the way of anyone accessing the rear row. How high your screen is off the floor or below the ceiling will depend on how far below the ceiling the center of the projector lens is after mounting.

Another thought might be to mount the projector behind the last row of seats and then you could go with a 122" screen and be in the middle of the zoom range instead of towards the ends.

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Old 04-02-2006, 12:28 AM
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Hi all! Great thread here and it's pretty much convinced me to go with the H710AE when I'm ready to buy in a few months.

I was just wondering if anyone knew what DVD player Joe Kane uses when he demos this unit? I figure he'd probably go to the trouble to get the whole setup to look as good as possible. To my understanding, Mr. Kane would be using a Stewart screen (either Studiotek130 or GreyHawk RS), but I haven't seen it mentioned what DVD player he uses.

It seems fairly likely to me that at least some of the "issues" mentioned with this unit (such as banding or blocking, etc.) might be coming from the source - ie. the DVD player or the HD cable or satellite box. I'm not saying this is always the case, but from everything I've read so far, it seems like it could certainly be a possibility in at least some of the cases. In particular, when using the Oppo DVD player, I imagine people could easily be seeing macroblocking since this is a known issue with the Oppo.

In any case, I don't have a DVD player with digital output yet, but I'd very much like to get one when I get this projector. I just thought that Joe Kane may be using a specific DVD player in order to get the best results, so I figured that might be a good DVD player to consider

Any help is much appreciated and thanks so much for all the great info on this exciting projector!

Jon
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Old 04-02-2006, 03:08 AM
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Two years ago he was using a Bravo DVD player and a MCE PC at CES. He said he prefered the Bravo for DVDs over the PC. He didn't explain why. They were having some DVI issues, the long cables required were not reliable. I think DVI cables may have gotten better now.

~Jay
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Old 04-02-2006, 08:02 AM
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I haven't seen him use anything other than WMV9 HD files, in 720p, from a custom built PC, using the DVI input, in recent history.
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Old 04-02-2006, 11:51 AM
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Jay

He felt the Sigma MPEG decoder in the Bravo DVD player was better than the SW MPEG decoder used in the PC.

He really does not demo SD DVD anymore. He sticks with HD. He also only uses the DVI input for demos.
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Old 04-02-2006, 01:36 PM
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Thanks George and Stacy.................

Nice to see the "Big Guns" showing up.......

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Old 04-02-2006, 06:08 PM
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does the H710AE have air intakes on the Lt or Rt side or both and is the front exhaust vent the only exhaust vent?
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