Samsung H710AE??? 4000MRSP - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1071 Old 04-07-2006, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Ahhh, things are heating up again... The H79 is now discontinued, and Optoma just started shipping the first of 2 replacement models (perhaps one is replacing the H78DC3 - which many, including myself, consider identical to the H79 except for warranty and method of distribution.

The HD7100 started shipping a couple of days ago. It's the new Darkchip3 projector, and has lens shift, etc.

Following shortly is the HD7300 which has outboard Gennum processing... (I'm not sure what processing is in the HD7100).

I'm expecting an HD7100 in for review in the next two weeks, and I'm going to contact Samsung tomorrow to see if I can get an H710 soon enough that they overlap in their time here. The starting MAP price for the Optoma with it's darkchip3 is only $3499, so it is the logical replacement for the H78DC3 - which was always the least expensive Darkchip3 projector.

Not having seen either, but reading H710 comments, it should be interesting to see if a top flite DC2 projector can equal or exceed a DC3 projector from a company with a good rep for their HT projectors.

One thing though, I certainly expect that the Optoma will need calibrating, to do good color, it's always been a weak spot of theirs, someone over in Taiwan seems to like green a little to much. -art

Presenter, to the best of my understanding the HD7300 will be an HD7100 married to the HD3000 outboard processor...the HD7100 uses Pixelworks for de-interlacing and scaling. That gets bypassed once you've hooked up the HD3000 Gennum box. I would imagine a retrofit once the HD3000s are available would be straightforward.
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post #452 of 1071 Old 04-07-2006, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mbot75 View Post

Thank you all for your comments and help.

When I was reading up on the IN76 I learned that they engineered it to be fairly maintenance free.

What sort of maintenance would this projector require?
Also, will I have to worry about dust blobs or does this have closed optics (and does having that even fully prevent them)?

Mbot75, the H710AE is designed to keep dust from interfering with image quality. Samsung won't say it's got a "sealed" light engine, but they do say that the optics have been designed to accomplish that objective.
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post #453 of 1071 Old 04-07-2006, 06:19 PM
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Here are the pictures with the darker paint. You can also see how light grey the Grayhawk RS is. Thats why light control is needed as well with this screen.

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post #454 of 1071 Old 04-08-2006, 06:27 PM
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Nice room, Brad! How about a shot with the H710 on?

Would be nice to put the components in a rack off to the back side and use an IR distribution system. Then you could install a (black) shelf that would hold the center channel a few inches closer to the screen. Just nitpicking, though.
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post #455 of 1071 Old 04-08-2006, 07:41 PM
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I'm considering upgrading to the SPH710 from my BenQ 8700. I have a 106" diagonal original Grayhawk screen (not RS - it's 0.85 gain) that I purchased when I owned a Sony 10HT. Would I get acceptable performance with the Samsung on this screen material? Changing the fabric would be difficult and expensive as it's an electric drop screen. Thanks for any advice!

Tom
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post #456 of 1071 Old 04-08-2006, 10:25 PM
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gnomey

Thanks I will get a few pictures with it on. The rack is built in so all I have to do is go around back and pull of the panels to have access to the equipment. I do have all the lights off so I get no light from any components (well except the xbox 360 when its on). I have thought about moving every thing to the back but thinking about it and doing it are to different things . The room is 21.6"long and 13.4 wide so I would have enough room in the back for all the components if I every stop thinking about it and just do it .

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post #457 of 1071 Old 04-08-2006, 10:28 PM
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Tom

Mine is 96 diagonal and with the lamp in theater mode (low) Iam getting right at 12fL. Maybe Ken Whitcomb can give some insight on your screen and the projector in High mode.

Brad
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post #458 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 12:23 AM
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And the image is superb! I've run about 10 hours through it so far, and it beats the pants off the AE900. The Samsung handily dispatches the IN76 as well (Jason was right!). A friend just got the IN76. We have the same screen, the 123" Firehawk G2, and the Samsung yielded a much more detailed, film-like picture. HDTV content was about even. I had originally gone for the IN76 but the lack of lens shift killed it for me. Jason recommended the Samsung, it had lens shift, it was a rather uninformed purchase that luckily paid off!

One question: how would I go about measuring the actual lumens output? I have a light meter so I can measure lux, fC--what's the proper prototcol to getting an accurate reading? I would like to find out exactly what fL I am getting with the projector.

Using Jason's numbers,

Theater: fL=612 lumens * 1.25 gain / 45ft2 = 17 fL
Bright: fL=808 lumens * 1.25 gain / 45ft2 = 22 fL

The image looks great to my eye in either mode. If the above fL is accurate, which would be closer to say, a movie theater? (My theater is not hermetically light-sealed, but with the house lights off, it is near-pitch black.

For those on the fence with this projector, and especially those contemplating the IN76 vs H710AE, I enthusiastically recommend the Samsung.
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post #459 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by fugueness

Quote:


The Samsung handily dispatches the IN76 as well (Jason was right!). A friend just got the IN76. We have the same screen, the 123" Firehawk G2, and the Samsung yielded a much more detailed, film-like picture. HDTV content was about even.

Hi Fugueness,

Are you saying the Sammy is quite a bit better than the IN76 on DVD, but on HDTV there is very little difference? If it is more 3D and filmlike I would think that would extend to HDTV as well. Just curious as most of my viewing is HDTV.

Thanks
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post #460 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRADH View Post

Tom

Mine is 96 diagonal and with the lamp in theater mode (low) Iam getting right at 12fL. Maybe Ken Whitcomb can give some insight on your screen and the projector in High mode.

Brad

Thanks Brad. In theater mode it sounds like I'd be quite a bit below 12fL with my 106" diagonal and lower gain (0.85) original Grayhawk screen. Is the projector a lot louder in the high light output mode?

I've kind of resigned myself for a while now to only being able to use bright projectors or needing to change the screen material to Firehawk G2 or Studiotek 130. However, I shudder to think about taking the (heavy!) screen down, shipping to Stewart, and remounting. Plus, I got a quote from Stewart for rescreening at about $1.5K. Oh well, the original Grayhawk material worked great when I bought it 5 years ago for improving blacks on my Sony 10HT LCD projector. It's more of a liability now with the current medium output DLP projectors I've been using. I should probably bite the bullet and upgrade the screen now rather than my projector. With a higher gain screen the BenQ 8700 could probably tide me over for 1-2 more years until the 1080p DLP's fall below $7K.

Tom

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post #461 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triodes2002 View Post

Are you saying the Sammy is quite a bit better than the IN76 on DVD, but on HDTV there is very little difference? If it is more 3D and filmlike I would think that would extend to HDTV as well. Just curious as most of my viewing is HDTV.Thanks

With the lights out, the Samsung does yield a much better image, better color, more depth and detail. With the house lights on, it becomes much more about brightness, and these projectors are practically neck-neck in lumens output in both modes. Most of my viewing is DVD, but if it were HD, it would be a tough call since I like to watch TV with the lights on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Blake View Post

Thanks Brad. In theater mode it sounds like I'd be quite a bit below 12fL with my 106" diagonal and lower gain (0.85) original Grayhawk screen. Is the projector a lot louder in the high light output mode?

The Samsung in high light output mode is quieter than the Infocus in low mode. It is relatively quiet.

My calculations
Samsung Theater mode: 612 lumens * 0.85 gain / 33.33 ft2 = 15.6 fL
Samsung Bright mode: 808 lumens * 0.85 gain / 33.33 ft2 = 20.6 fL

Looks like you'd be fine!
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post #462 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 02:26 PM
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Here are two screen shots from Shark Tale off the DVR. I will need to try more settings with camera. Most of the one I took were to dark. I will work with some other settings after the battery charges . Maybe Jason can tell me how he has his camera setup. The second one was so dark I had to use auto level in picture it 7.

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post #463 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 03:02 PM
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Thanks fugueness,

Makes sense that with the lights on much of the Sammy's advantage is lost. Not an issue for me becuase I have totaly ambient light control, and pretty good reflected light control. I do have gold/tan colored walls but they are non-reflective becuase there is sand in the paint. Flat white stucco ceiling will reflect some light but I will cover with black sheet during viewing.
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post #464 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 03:59 PM
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Tom Blake,

Quote:


I shudder to think about taking the (heavy!) screen down, shipping to Stewart, and remounting. Plus, I got a quote from Stewart for rescreening at about $1.5K.

I find it difficult to believe you can't just order the new screen fabric, take the frame down, detach the old material, then re-attach the new material. No rigid frame screen I have ever mounted has ever been what I would call heavy. Do you you have an electric mask frame? It's also difficult for me to believe just the fabric would be $1.5k. Can you elaborate more on your situation? Maybe you could just call me to discuss this further. I'm a Stewart dealer. Send me a PM with your phone number and I'll call you instead.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #465 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Tom Blake,



I find it difficult to believe you can't just order the new screen fabric, take the frame down, detach the old material, then re-attach the new material. No rigid frame screen I have ever mounted has ever been what I would call heavy. Do you you have an electric mask frame? It's also difficult for me to believe just the fabric would be $1.5k. Can you elaborate more on your situation? Maybe you could just call me to discuss this further. I'm a Stewart dealer. Send me a PM with your phone number and I'll call you instead.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

George - It's a Luxus Model A Electriscreen. Stewart told me a while ago it had to be sent in to swap fabrics and I recall the quote being about $1.5K for labor/materials. Probably another $250 for round trip freight also. I'd be willing to do it if it weren't such a pain in the arse to take down and put back up! I'll contact you via PM.

Thanks,

Tom
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post #466 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 05:30 PM
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fugueness - thanks for the calcs. That's encouraging!

D6500Ken - if you had time to offer any comments on how you think the 710 would be on my original 0.85 gain Grayhawk in high bright mode I'd greatly appreciate it!

Tom
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post #467 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

You will find that dark scenes in movies will not be able to include convincing blacks, with light walls and ceiling in the room. All those light surfaces act like mirrors and reflect light coming from any light source, even from the projected image itself, right back onto the screen...Also be aware that any light or wall reflections coming from in front of the screen (back of the room) will not be rejected. That light will have gain, just as the projected image has gain.

You can't fool Mother Nature...The viewing environment is an absolutely critical component of every imaging system. Poor viewing environment conditions result in poor imaging.

G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

GeorgeAB,

So how dark is dark enough? We're building a room that, while designed as a theater and primarily fulfilling that purpose, will also serve as a place where our kids may hang out with the lights on. A "bat cave" atmosphere just isn't going to work for us. We're contemplating going with midnight blue for the ceiling and screen wall, and a medium blue elsewhere. What do you think of that kind of environment with this projector and a Carada BW (1.3 gain) screen? Is that a reasonable compromise between form and function?

KK
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post #468 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 09:01 PM
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A flat black ceiling is the best. That is the room surface closest to the screen and the most likely to wash out or tint the screen. Just painting the section closest to the screen can suffice. My demo theater has the first half of the ceiling black and the farthest half is white. It works very well, although all the other walls are dark wood paneling.

The walls and carpet can be lighter if desired. Munsell nearly neutrals are subdued shades of just about any color. They are like pastels with a slight gray base. Munsell nearly neutrals are recommended by SMPTE for use in professional video viewing environments.

One of Joe Kane's demo rooms at CEDIA EXPO one year had a white ceiling. I could see a shadow at the top of the screen on both the GrayHawk and StudioTech 130. The shadow was visible on all program material, less so on dark scenes. It looked like a darker stripe that was about 2 or 3 inches along the entire width of the top of the image. What this shadow indicated was that the entire screen area except the top few inches was being illuminated by the reflection from the ceiling. A white ceiling would simple wash out the image somewhat. A colored ceiling would tint the image slightly.

A current client's dedicated theater will be used by his grandkids at times, like you suggest. He has can lights in the ceiling, a black ceiling and medium gray walls. He has opted for black fabric wrapped acoustic panels placed strategically around the room. The carpet is light gray with black speckles. It just so happens he is getting the Samsung projector as well. There will be enough illumination for his grandkids to move around and play video games, etc., but the image on the screen should not be affected much. More lights can be added to any viewing environment for other activities and cleaning.

Your blue color scheme is certainly better than white walls or vivid red, like we've all seen in magazine photos. Vivid colors can be added to a room as minimal accents without affecting the image. It's when they dominate the room that causes reflections back onto the screen noticeably. You have to decide what's more important to you, what the room looks like with the lights on, or what the image on the screen looks like when the room is used for projected images.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #469 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

A flat black ceiling is the best. That is the room surface closest to the screen and the most likely to wash out or tint the screen.

One nice thing about the DNP SuperNova is that doesn't seem to send much light above and below and I think it might kill light coming from above and below pretty well also. I would expect it to do a good job at negating much of the negative effect of a white ceiling. I want a version with less hotspotting and less speckling to my eyes, but even so I think the current version does provide an advantage with effectively killing some reflections from the room.

--Darin

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post #470 of 1071 Old 04-09-2006, 09:36 PM
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One important thing I forgot....

You well heeled "over $3500" folks are gonna have to get used to us lowly backwoods trailer park urchins form the under $3500 forum moving on into the neighborhood due to the H710AE.

BTW I have a Sony SMPTE C phosphor broadcast HD and SD monitor for my non linear edit suite that I plan on looking at compared to the SMPTE C setting of the H710 once it arrives.

If it works well, It would be great for me to actually color correct some of the commercials and other projects I edit on a projector as well as a monitor. I'll report back in a week or two once the 710 is up and running.
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post #471 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 06:38 AM
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Darin,

Thus far, every one of the screens I've seen of this type do not provide an accurate image. They are great for providing an image that doesn't look washed out in high ambient lighting, but alter the picture in other ways. The Samsung projector offers color quality and other subtle performance issues that would be lost with such a screen.

Utility can be a legitimate priority in compromised viewing environments. This projector offers superior performance for people who value image quality over convenience. When a compromised viewing environment is of greater importance, money can be saved on the projector for the sake of brightness over subtlety. There's a big difference between a "watchable" picture and a reference image.

The screens that Joe Kane recommends to be used with this projector require certain viewing environment conditions be provided. His recommendations assume that image fidelity is the primary objective.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #472 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 08:24 AM
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GeorgeAB,

Thanks for your helpful advice.
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post #473 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 09:26 AM
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Yes GeorgeAB, great comments on the importance of the viewing environment.

I was able to see this projector on the Home Theater Cruise last October. While the viewing environment was not optimal, it was still very interesting as Joe Kane demonstrated the difference between the NTSC (SMPTE_C) and ATSC (HD) color space options. While very subtle, selecting the right color space brings out the last bit of color resolution. Joe used the "restaurant" scene from DVE Professional (also found on DVE), and the additional color detail in food and the faces was a noticeable improvement.

Joe also put up some gray scale patterns, and it was interesting to see what a difference accurate D65 color temp makes at the lowest black levels. Most display devices have a noticeable shift in color temp below 30 IRE (e.g., the black looks blueish, reddish or greenish), but the Samsung stayed accurate down to absolute black. My impression was that this made the blacks appear blacker than they really were such that the perceived contrast ratio appeared greater than the actual contrast ratio.

Finally, the absolutely smooth appearance of the image and the integrity of the colors made this my favorite of all the projectors we saw (and they were in the $10,000 to $40,000 price range).

My two cents is that if you want a projector that produces artificially-sweetened eye-candy that explodes off the screen with blown-out, bluish whites, and over saturated colors, this is not the projector for you. If, however, you want the most accurate image available in this price range, this is the only way to go.

I've got one on order and can't wait to run it through its paces.

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post #474 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emailists View Post

I have a Sony SMPTE C phosphor broadcast HD and SD monitor for my non linear edit suite that I plan on looking at compared to the SMPTE C setting of the H710 once it arrives.

If it works well, It would be great for me to actually color correct some of the commercials and other projects I edit on a projector as well as a monitor. I'll report back in a week or two once the 710 is up and running.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, one of Joe Kane's priorities on this project was to have a projector accurate enough for production use. I think when you look at the primaries (even before calibration) you will be amazed at the results. This is why many hardcore CRT users have adopted this product as their reference for colorimetry.


Ken Whitcomb

Calibrations Inc.
Indianapolis, IN

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post #475 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 10:02 AM
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Kevin and Ken great reviews of the 710. I have had one for 3 weeks now and love it. And coming from a Optoma I fully agree on the cartoon image that Kevin is talking about. I am using a small gray screen and colors and are so dead on it is breath taking. Black level is the best of any projector I have had to date. So don't let the 2800:1 in eco mode contrast spec keep you from buying this projector.

I think that Tom needs to test one of these. I think Optoma will lose a product tester.

Dale
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post #476 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 10:14 AM
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Quote:


I was able to see this projector on the Home Theater Cruise last October. While the viewing environment was not optimal, it was still very interesting as Joe Kane demonstrated the difference between the NTSC (SMPTE_C) and ATSC (HD) color space options. While very subtle, selecting the right color space brings out the last bit of color resolution. Joe used the "restaurant" scene from DVE Professional (also found on DVE), and the additional color detail in food and the faces was a noticeable improvement.

A reminder might be in order at this point. The vast majority of HD post-production monitors are direct view CRTs, with SMPTE C phosphors, using NTSC colorspace. Many video professionals have never seen HD color space. To view most HDTV programs today the same way the program producer saw it, requires setting your display for SMPTE C color space. It may be years before this changes and we will likely not know if a particular program was mastered in NTSC or HD color space.

The difference is subtle but rewarding. I've never asked Joe what monitor he used when 'Digital Video Essentials' was mastered to DVD. DVE Professional was produced some time later and offers WMV9 HD versions in the multi-disc set. DVE Pro offers both standard definition and high definition color space options for the HD material. A very high performance PC is required to view the WMV9 HD material with HD color matrix transcoding. The Samsung projector offers the capability of calibration to either SD or HD color space.

Several HDTV displays have offered color primaries that even exceed HD color space. This feature is useless unless the device includes the means to adjust the primaries to line up with the color space actually used in program production. Without such provision these devices can only deliver distorted images.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #477 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 04:12 PM
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Well, count me in... I just ordered from AVS today, should be here in a couple of days. BTW, anyone scouring Froogle for the best price on this beast may want to give the boys at AVS a call, they have the best price on this piece if you include the mount they are throwing in...

As far as sources, I have had a brand new Oppo still sitting in it's unopened box for about a month now because it was "the one" for an inexpensive upconverting player. However, the 710 seems to be a poor match to the Oppo due to macroblocking as others have reported. Can anyone point me in the direction of another player that does not have any macroblocking issues? Perhaps the new Sony 75? The price sure is right...

Adam
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post #478 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 04:30 PM
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Adam

Congratulations on the 710AE you will be happy with it. I sure am glad I got one. You may want order a replacement bulb you will be watching it alot I put 160hrs on mine in 1 month .

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post #479 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 04:37 PM
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not sure on price point ? I have a Denon 2900 I have had for a while that is great with it I am getting in 2910 to see how it does over DVI ?

but I think the 2900 for its price is hard to beat ? its just finding one that is tough
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post #480 of 1071 Old 04-10-2006, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gutierrez View Post


As far as sources, I have had a brand new Oppo still sitting in it's unopened box for about a month now because it was "the one" for an inexpensive upconverting player. However, the 710 seems to be a poor match to the Oppo due to macroblocking as others have reported. Can anyone point me in the direction of another player that does not have any macroblocking issues? Perhaps the new Sony 75? The price sure is right...

Adam.........

How many reports of "problems" with the Oppo have you seen? I thought I saw a report of a problem with a Denon 3910, but I did not remember seeing the issue with the Oppo.....

Thx

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