Samsung H710AE??? 4000MRSP - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin R. Anderson View Post

I did see a banding problem using the AVIA Pro XX ramps (the pattern goes from video black to video white in smooth increments), but I was able to resolve it using adjustments on my Denon 2910 DVD player. Comparing test patterns using the Accupel leads me to think that anyone having banding issues with this projector should look first at their source device rather than the projector.

Reading these threads over the past couple days I noticed reports of the Oppo player and the Denon 2910 player showing some macroblocking effects with this PJ. This has been attributed to thier Faroudja processing.

The HiDef players should alleviate this. Good report, keep us posted.

John
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post #542 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 03:23 PM
 
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The Denon 5910 CI has no such faroudja processing yet I noticed the blocking artifacts right away, it would be interesting if Kevin could tell us exactly what he changed in player that allowed him to resolve the blocking artifacts, I really liked everything else about this projector except those artifacts, so either I wait for the optoma hd81 1080p or purchase the benq 8720 which I hear is a great projector in the brightness and contrast categories and throws a real nice image as well.
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post #543 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by funlvr1965 View Post

I really liked everything else about this projector except those artifacts, so either I wait for the optoma hd81 1080p or purchase the benq 8720 which I hear is a great projector in the brightness and contrast categories and throws a real nice image as well.

This is a strange issue in that it is not yet 100% conclusive that it is the source that's causing it. If it was the Faroudja chip then you shouldn't see this with your player. People have been going back and forth blaming the source then the PJ and so on. I would like to think it's the player and hope that the new HD players should take care of this problem. If not ... well I don't want to think about that.

The other solution is obviously to spend a lot more more money as you are suggesting.
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post #544 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 08:14 PM
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Agreed, the 8720 is another 2K more than AVS is selling the 710 for, I don't consider that in the same catagory...

My 710 should be here in the next day or so and I have a brand new Oppo I will try out on it as soon as it arrives.

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post #545 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gutierrez View Post

Agreed, the 8720 is another 2K more than AVS is selling the 710 for, I don't consider that in the same catagory...

My 710 should be here in the next day or so and I have a brand new Oppo I will try out on it as soon as it arrives.

My 710 just arrived this evening and I already have the Oppo. Problem is the Dalite HP screen will take another week.

It looks like the sammy crowd is multiplying ...
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post #546 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 10:10 PM
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This review of the IN76 claims Samsung DLP have up to a half a second lag. Has anyone noticed this?

"DLP HDTVs have become a little unpopular for gaming in recent months as more and more users are discovering that in some cases (Samsung DLPs especially) the internal circuitry of the unit leads to lag of up to half-a-second between a controller button press and when the action shows up on screen. The phenomena is scaling lag and takes place when a non-native resolution must be scaled to fit the screen, like a PS2's 480i signal being processed up to 720p. Sometimes even native resolutions are lagged by excessive image processing designed to make DVDs look good, rather than games. "

taken from http://gear.ign.com/articles/701/701496p1.html

The Link was posted in the "projectors for trailer park folks forum."
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post #547 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 10:21 PM
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I assume the gaming review was referring to lag time in Samsung DLP rear projection TVs, and not the DLP front projector. Perhaps the projector is different--anyone check this out yet?
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post #548 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 11:28 PM
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^^^I've only seen this happen (lag that is) when people have all the different "picture enhancements" turned on. Black level enhancement, edge enhancement, and all the stuff that's part of Samsung's "DNIe" package. Most of the people on this board turn all this stuff off so that they can enjoy the more accurate picture. But lots of people turn all this stuff on because the manual says it will make the picture better!

I've never seen just the straight scaling introduce any noticable lag. Just turn off all the artificial enhancements and the lag should go away!

Jon
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post #549 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 11:30 PM
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Quote:


This review of the IN76 claims Samsung DLP have up to a half a second lag. Has anyone noticed this?

The lag is caused by the Genesis (Sage (Faroudja)) deinterlacing used inside. If you bypass and send native 720p then you are good to go. This is true for most video processing.

If you want to play games, you have but one choice, the ABT102. It works great for game playback.
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post #550 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin R. Anderson View Post

...Finally, the absolutely smooth appearance of the image and the integrity of the colors made this my favorite of all the projectors we saw (and they were in the $10,000 to $40,000 price range)....

Comments like that, as well as from the other highly credible sources on this thread, certainly get my attention

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin R. Anderson View Post

My two cents is that if you want a projector that produces artificially-sweetened eye-candy that explodes off the screen with blown-out, bluish whites, and over saturated colors, this is not the projector for you. If, however, you want the most accurate image available in this price range, this is the only way to go.

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Originally Posted by azjetski View Post

Kevin and Ken great reviews of the 710. I have had one for 3 weeks now and love it. And coming from a Optoma I fully agree on the cartoon image that Kevin is talking about. I am using a small gray screen and colors and are so dead on it is breath taking. Black level is the best of any projector I have had to date.

So, just a reality check here please. Are you guys saying that the H710AE is a noticable step up from the Optoma H7x in terms of overall "viewing pleasure" ? Is this true even when the H7x has been properly calibrated ? It would seem that unless the H7x cannot be calibrated properly (primaries on the colour wheel are just plain wrong, not enough resolution for good tracking, or whatever) or something else is messed up in the Optoma implementation, then the H7x should have every advantage - dark segments for improved shadow detail, DC3 with higher inherent contrast & less SDE, etc.

Please don't take these questions the wrong way. I really hope the H710AE is as great as everyone says. But I am also worried that there might be a little of the "reality distortion field" effect (a la Steve Jobs) coming from JKP. I remember there was a lot of hype on the H7x when it first came out. But now the H7x seems to be relegated to the also ran category...

Brent
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post #551 of 1071 Old 04-12-2006, 11:44 PM
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Brent,

When I get my replacment bulb, you are welcome to come over and see the 700. This way you can make your own decision. It will probably have to wait until after I return from NAB.
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post #552 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 12:10 AM
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Sounds good Stacey. It would be good to get a feel for the blackness (greyness ?) of the bars on 2.35 material as well as SDE since these artifacts are continuously present (and an area where the DC3 supposedly holds a definite advantage over the HD2+).

At least the Samsung bulbs run about $100 less than for the H79 and they appear to be in stock

Brent
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post #553 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 12:54 AM
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Brent..........

Let me get this straight.... are you saying Mac's Do Not Rule???

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post #554 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

On this particular display there is really one best setting for contrast. This is independent of screen material, screen size, lighting, etc... Once set you can change all of the variables above and this would not change.

The same thing would be true for the brightness control in a dark room. Lights on and you would adjust, but this setting would not change if you changed any of the other variables mentioned above.

I have the 700 and have switched screen material and screen sizes and those settings did not change.

Stacey,

If what you say is in fact the case, then how does one determine that "correct" brightness and contrast settings? Are those settings the same for every Samsung 700/710? If yes, why would Samsung not dial in correct settings at the factory prior to shipping? Or are they doing just that?

Thanks.

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who hate the Klan
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post #555 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 01:48 AM
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HiHoStevo -

Well, I will say that while Macs outnumber PC's 4:1 in my house (and I didn't pay for the PC, work did) the transition to Intel kind of reminded me of when I first found out there wasn't a tooth fairy ....

But, to get this a bit more on topic I am picking up a vibe here that the Samsung series has been produced by people with a passion for "getting it right". So, perhaps that is the more fitting analogy to make with Apple.

Brent
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post #556 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kktx View Post

I assume the gaming review was referring to lag time in Samsung DLP rear projection TVs, and not the DLP front projector. Perhaps the projector is different--anyone check this out yet?

360 is fine.

Dale
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post #557 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwishred View Post

Are you guys saying that the H710AE is a noticable step up from the Optoma H7x in terms of overall "viewing pleasure" ? Is this true even when the H7x has been properly calibrated ? It would seem that unless the H7x cannot be calibrated properly (primaries on the colour wheel are just plain wrong, not enough resolution for good tracking, or whatever) or something else is messed up in the Optoma implementation, then the H7x should have every advantage - dark segments for improved shadow detail, DC3 with higher inherent contrast & less SDE, etc.Brent

Just my observations having calibrated both the H78 and H79. The primaries on the Optoma are not as accurate (this is discussed in some detail in the H79 thread). Red is substantially oversaturated and green (if I recall correctly) has the usual DLP lime appearance (a shift towards yellow). A lot of people like the look of oversaturated red (by the way, almost every projector in the below $10,000 range has inaccurate primaries).

Attached is a CIE chart from an Optoma H77 (couldn't find one for the H79), but it will illustrate my point. Note that in this CIE chart, green is shifted towards yellow, blue is shifted towards green, and red is shifted towards blue. As a result, the primaries of the H77 define a color space that less than the SMPTE_C standard. In other words, every color that falls outside the triangle delineated by the white line cannot be reproduced by the H77. It also means that the spectrum of colors is more limited than required by the SMPTE_C standard, so you are losing color detail (resolution) in the image. What happens if the primaries fall outside the SMPTE_C standard triangle? Then the projector produces colors that are not found in the SMPTE_C standard (e.g., artificial colors).

The benefit of the H710AE is that its primaries fall very close to the applicable color space standard (SMPTE_C, HD, or EBU). Furthermore, the primaries can be calibrated to bring them within the applicable standard (very few projectors can do this).

Some other points. A shift in the primaries technically requires a corresponding shift in the D65 calibration point. The H710AE has a more linear gray scale, especially at low luminance levels. And, personally, I like the gamma curve of the Samsung as it produces excellent shadow detail.

In summary, I think the the Optoma Hxx projectors are great display devices (if money was no object, I would buy their new H81 1080p projector in a heart beat). Some people may actually prefer their look (they certainly have vibrant colors and great black levels), but they do not have the color fidelity of the Samsung. Is the Samsung a better projector? That is a matter of personal preference and how one defines "better." Is the Samsung a more accurate projector? I think the answer is an unequivocal "yes."

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post #558 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 07:40 AM
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Greetings,
I have had the 710 now for about 10 days. I have been enjoying it off the wall, with no screen. My question is about screen selection. I ordered screen samples from Carada. The samples are small and this makes selection difficult for me. I was trying to pick between CCW and BW. I was interested in the added punch of the 1.4 CCW, as this material is supposed to closley resemble the Studiotek 130 JKP suggests using with this projector. When I had the BW sample up on my wall, I really seemed to loose the nice black levels this projector has to offer. The CCW 1.0 looked much better to my eyes. Can anyone else share their experience with this selection process. My room is a media room, and I have control of the light to about 85/90%. I do alot of football with friends and I'm just not sure about a bunch of guys watching football in total darkness.
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post #559 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin R. Anderson View Post

Just my observations having calibrated both the H78 and H79. The primaries on the Optoma are not as accurate (this is discussed in some detail in the H79 thread). Red is substantially oversaturated and green (if I recall correctly) has the usual DLP lime appearance (a shift towards yellow). A lot of people like the look of oversaturated red (by the way, almost every projector in the below $10,000 range has inaccurate primaries).

Attached is a CIE chart from an Optoma H77 (couldn't find one for the H79), but it will illustrate my point. Note that in this CIE chart, green is shifted towards yellow, blue is shifted towards green, and red is shifted towards blue. As a result, the primaries of the H77 define a color space that less than the SMPTE_C standard. In other words, every color that falls outside the triangle delineated by the white line cannot be reproduced by the H77. It also means that the spectrum of colors is more limited than required by the SMPTE_C standard, so you are losing color detail (resolution) in the image. What happens if the primaries fall outside the SMPTE_C standard triangle? Then the projector produces colors that are not found in the SMPTE_C standard (e.g., artificial colors).

The benefit of the H710AE is that its primaries fall very close to the applicable color space standard (SMPTE_C, HD, or EBU). Furthermore, the primaries can be calibrated to bring them within the applicable standard (very few projectors can do this).

Some other points. A shift in the primaries technically requires a corresponding shift in the D65 calibration point. The H710AE has a more linear gray scale, especially at low luminance levels. And, personally, I like the gamma curve of the Samsung as it produces excellent shadow detail.

In summary, I think the the Optoma Hxx projectors are great display devices (if money was no object, I would buy their new H81 1080p projector in a heart beat). Some people may actually prefer their look (they certainly have vibrant colors and great black levels), but they do not have the color fidelity of the Samsung. Is the Samsung a better projector? That is a matter of personal preference and how one defines "better." Is the Samsung a more accurate projector? I think the answer is an unequivocal "yes."

But what about shadow detail and dithering compared to the Optoma Hxx's ??

Fleaman
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post #560 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emailists View Post

This review of the IN76 claims Samsung DLP have up to a half a second lag. Has anyone noticed this?

"DLP HDTVs have become a little unpopular for gaming in recent months as more and more users are discovering that in some cases (Samsung DLPs especially) the internal circuitry of the unit leads to lag of up to half-a-second between a controller button press and when the action shows up on screen. The phenomena is scaling lag and takes place when a non-native resolution must be scaled to fit the screen, like a PS2's 480i signal being processed up to 720p. Sometimes even native resolutions are lagged by excessive image processing designed to make DVDs look good, rather than games. "

taken from http://gear.ign.com/articles/701/701496p1.html

The Link was posted in the "projectors for trailer park folks forum."

Half a second

That cannot be correct. If so, this would show up in regular movie viewing as 1/2 a second can easily be seen, making dialog out of sync with lips on the screen...

Maybe a few milliseconds latency perhaps?

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post #561 of 1071 Old 04-13-2006, 03:52 PM
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I am buying the 710 and the Lumagen Vision HDPro from AVS and canceled the benq 8720 and had cash left over. This will last me 1.5 to 2 years then get the 1080p 3 chipper

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post #562 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 01:55 AM
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For the life of me, I couldn't remember:

what scaler/deinterlacing solution does the 710AE use and how does it handle 1080i input?

Jon
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post #563 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 07:45 AM
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Just got the PJ yesterday - one day after ordering from AVS through Jason - wow that was fast!

After narrowing down to the HD72, IN76, and HD7100, and H710AE - went with the Samsung. Tested several DVD's last night - here are my impressions for a range of DVD material:

Lion King - great colors, fabulous clarity. the kids were in awe.
North by Northwest - looked the best that I've ever seen it, very smooth and film-like.
Narnia - looked really good but seemed a little dark overall (I noticed this viewing it on my Pioneer CRT RPTV as well - so could be the DVD transfer?)
Stagecoach - classic B/W film, great movie with a not so great transfer, didn't expect much with this one but was pleasantly surprised -better than I thought it would be.

No HD sources yet so I can't comment.

All viewing was done with default settings projecting 100'' diagonal image on unfinished drywall (still building HT in basement). It can only get better with proper setup and screen. Presently using a Sony NC85H player with component output.

A little background - I've been shopping for an HT display for several months and was initially looking at 60-70" RPTV and plasmas. Of course HD sources look fabulous on these, but whenever I'd view DVD, I'd think - hmm, seems like my 10-yr old 51" Pioneer CRT looks better - why spend all this money and then feel like I'd rather go upstairs to watch my DVD collection - talk about buyer's remorse . Then I viewed a Yamaha 510LPX PJ and thought - this would definitely be a step up. Started researching PJ alternatives, and finally decided on the Samsung. I'm quite happy at this point and can't wait to finish the HT to fully appreciate this PJ.

Randy
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post #564 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rawise View Post

Stagecoach - classic B/W film, great movie with a not so great transfer, didn't expect much with this one but was pleasantly surprised -better than I thought it would be.

Next time you watch a B/W movie, switch the Picture Mode to "Movie2." This setting uses the 5500K color temp (versus the normal 6500K), which is the correct standard for black and white movies.

This is a really nice feature to have. Usually, you have to calibrate a seperate memory setting to 5500K for black and white movies, but now you can just switch picture mode.

I watched the restored Casa Blanca in this setting and with the neutral gray scale of the Samsung, it makes B/W movies an exciting, visual experience.

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post #565 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin R. Anderson View Post

Next time you watch a B/W movie, switch the Picture Mode to "Movie2." This setting uses the 5500K color temp (versus the normal 6500K), which is the correct standard for black and white movies.

Will try it next time - thanks for the info.

Randy
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post #566 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin R. Anderson View Post

Next time you watch a B/W movie, switch the Picture Mode to "Movie2." This setting uses the 5500K color temp (versus the normal 6500K), which is the correct standard for black and white movies.

Great tip, Kevin.
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post #567 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 12:27 PM
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Well I just set up my Samsung H710AE today.
The picture is amazing and a huge step up from the Panasonic AE700 I owned before this. I'm very impressed - far more than I expected I would be.
I can finally say that I'm satisfied with the level of black I'm seeing. It was something that always bothered me about the Panny. I can also finally see that 3d effect I hear people talking about - the depth and detail of the image are incredible (for me at least with my limited experience). I'm not technical though so I wont try to go into detail about things I don't much about.

I do however have one concern. I think I have some sort of power cable problem. It connects very loosely to my projector. After putting my projector into standby for the first time after a few hours of use, I noticed that the standby light was gone by the time I returned to the projector again. The main switch in the back was still set to "on" but the projector was no longer receiving power - even though I hadn't physically touched it since my last use. After messing around with all the power cables again I was able to get it going but I'm worried that this will keep happening.

Have any of you experienced a problem like this? Is there something I can do to make the power cord fit more snuggly into the back?
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post #568 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 01:15 PM
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The Samsung has the standard IEC connector used by essentially all computers, monitors, printers, etc. Try different cords until you find one with a snug fit. One trick is to put a few wraps of black electrical tape around the C13 female connector so that it fits more tightly when connected to the C14 chassis plug.

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post #569 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 01:18 PM
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I noticed on mine you have to push in the power cable with a touch more pressure than most
then it kinda seats itself for the last half of going on
look wise and feel wise at first it looks like its in but push a bit more firmly and see if it sets in ? its almost like its slightly recessed ? if that makes sense to you
once in all the way its quite solid though
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post #570 of 1071 Old 04-14-2006, 01:25 PM
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Hi guys,

I am trying to find out if I am the only one with a noise problem with this PJ. I started another thread here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=666999
and have measured 57 dB of noise on the right side of the PJ (away from the front exhaust). The Radioshack meter was in C-weighting and was held 1 inch away from the case.

Can one of the new H710 owners put the RS SPL meter next to this PJ while its running and report back the decibel reading?

Thanks,

John
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