Mitsubishi HC5000 (aka HC5000BL) 1080p LCD MSRP $4,495 - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Are there any front projectors with perfect convergence?"

There's no such thing as "perfect" in engineering and mfg, either for products or measuring devices.

There's only "good enough", a hard reality for perfectionists.

gremmy,

Thanks for the post, that puts a comforting real-world perspective on the issue.

I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes or take away anyone's right to express their viewpoint regarding convergence, but I think maybe some people forget that even directView CRTs suffer from misconvergence, and sometimes it is much worse than what is being reported on these LCD and LCOS projectors. I have a Trinitron in my basement that has a wicked case of misconvergence in one corner (+/- 3 pixels and more in some places), but I do understand that the larger screen of Front Projection makes the problem more obvious and therefore more problematic.

Before seeing the effect of 1 pixel misconvergence on my Pearl with my own eyes, I would have sworn off such a thing as video projection heresy.

For those who have indeed seen the effect and found it troubling, I respect that. But for those who haven't, I strongly encourage a personal audition before deciding that perfect convergence is an absolute necessity, since this requirement drastically limits one's options.
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post #632 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

Before seeing the effect of 1 pixel misconvergence on my Pearl with my own eyes, I would have sworn off such a thing as video projection heresy.

For those who have indeed seen the effect and found it troubling, I respect that. But for those who haven't, I strongly encourage a personal audition before deciding that perfect convergence is an absolute necessity, since this requirement drastically limits one's options.

I've personally never seen misconvergence of any kind. Like you, it may be a non-issue for me, but it is one of those things that is just a mental annoyance. Unlike some (or maybe even most) here, purchasing a projector of this price is a big undertaking. It'd be akin to going out and purchasing a brand-new BMW M3 and having a barely perceptible rattle develop within the first 3,000 miles. You may not be able to hear it under normal driving, but yet you still know it is there.

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post #633 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BOSS10L View Post

It'd be akin to going out and purchasing a brand-new BMW M3 and having a barely perceptible rattle develop within the first 3,000 miles. You may not be able to hear it under normal driving, but yet you still know it is there.

I suggest you not purchase a BMW.

Seriously though, my question for you is whether or not you would have ever noticed the rattle if you hadn't been spending hours browsing the Luxury Cars forum and reading all the posts.

Again, I'm not trying to minimize convergence issues for those who are truly distracted at normal viewing distances (either because of very bad convergence or keen eyesight), I'm just saying that at some point we picky A/V guys are forced to pick our poison. There is no perfect projector, so we have to decide what problems are most bothersome to us under our normal viewing conditions.

In other words, check it out for yourself. That's all I'm saying. You might find that there are 100 other projector artifacts and/or defects (like RBE, dithering, high-frequency roll-off, color discontinuity, crushed blacks, panel noise, etc.) that bother you more than 1 pixel misconvergence. This will help you pick the projector that is truly right for you based on your own tolerance, not based on someone else's post.
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post #634 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 04:04 PM
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I agree with gremmy and Noah (no big surprise, as my comment on the "good" convergence apparently generated this little sub-topic):

There is no such thing as "perfect," guaranteed convergence with multiple-chip devices (and even DLPs can have lens/prism issues that affect chromatic aberration), at realistic pricepoints; the engineering and QC would be astronomically expensive. The manufacturing tolerances, especially at 1920 X 1080--remember, you're talking about more than double the pixel count from 1280 X 720) are simply too tight at competitive pricepoints. No way they can afford to throw out, say, 2/3 of the optical blocks!

From what I've read about forum members' experiences, Sony now has spec'd the Ruby's permissible quality tolerances as +/- 2 pixels (although I think they started out at +/- 1 at their repair facility, when the Ruby first came out...+/- 2 seems a little high). Surely, the Pearl will be no better in terms of spec'd "within the norms" repair tolerances (although hopefully better at de facto tolerances--they should be tightening their processes continuously...CPI and TQM and all that).

To have only one color one pixel off in only one dimension (especially blue), I find quite acceptible. (And, we don't know whether the convergence WAS perfect, elsewhere on the screen...perhaps they were concentrating on worst-case!)

Lastly, notice I originally said "good" convergence, not perfect...

My 4 cents...


Will
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post #635 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 04:33 PM
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Could someone tell me how exactly to check for misconvergence? Also how do you know if it is 1 pixel off, 1.5 pixels off, etc...Is there some sort of pattern on the Avia disc and then do you measure it some how? I have no experience in this obvioulsly and would appreciate some help.

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post #636 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 04:38 PM
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Sure, there are test patterns on the various test discs, and many projectors have internal patterns, too. If you look at the french review's screen shots, you can tell in some of the extreme closeups, where the pixels clearly are visible on the test patterns, that there is a one-pixel-wide blue line, along the vertical axis--exactly one pixel off (i.e. exactly adjacent to the white line)...this should be "converged" to make the white line, but is off by a pixel...sometimes you will see just a hint of fringing, not quite a whole pixel off (yep, this would be a half-pixsel off, or thereabouts). You just judge it by eye. Note, however, that this will NOT be noticible at anything resembling normal viewing distances, as others have stated above!

Test patterns can show convergence at multiple points on the screen, barrel/ pincushion distortion, and lots of other things...it'll bring out the anal-retentive "tweak" inya, careful!

Seriously: don't sweat the small stuff!
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post #637 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 05:14 PM
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So if it is one pixel off, it will be the same width as the white line just a different color such as blue and right next to the white line, and if it is .5 pixel off it will be approx .5 the width of the white line, etc....?

Thanks for the info

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post #638 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 05:43 PM
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I depends on the width of the white line.

If you'll look on the French site, as I mentioned, all will be obvious.
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post #639 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

I suggest you not purchase a BMW.

Seriously though, my question for you is whether or not you would have ever noticed the rattle if you hadn't been spending hours browsing the Luxury Cars forum and reading all the posts.

Again, I'm not trying to minimize convergence issues for those who are truly distracted at normal viewing distances (either because of very bad convergence or keen eyesight), I'm just saying that at some point we picky A/V guys are forced to pick our poison. There is no perfect projector, so we have to decide what problems are most bothersome to us under our normal viewing conditions.

In other words, check it out for yourself. That's all I'm saying. You might find that there are 100 other projector artifacts and/or defects (like RBE, dithering, high-frequency roll-off, color discontinuity, crushed blacks, panel noise, etc.) that bother you more than 1 pixel misconvergence. This will help you pick the projector that is truly right for you based on your own tolerance, not based on someone else's post.

Well, if it'll help you sleep at night, I drive a Ford Escort. Once upon a time it was Mustangs, and I'm not sure I could ever bring myself to own a BMW, it just isn't my style.

Like I said, I probably will never see misconvergence. Same as I probably will never be bothered by RBE. It's not that actual problem that bothers me, it is that ever so slight fraction of a percentage that tells me that the PJ that I just dropped a buttload of money on may have an issue. Would it be any less annoying if the PJ was MSRP'ed at $499? No, but at nearly 10 times the cost it tends to "zing" a bit more.

I'm just speculating on silicon dust anyway, this PJ is vaporware as far as I am concerned until I can place an order and have one in my home in the next day or two after that.

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post #640 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 05:50 PM
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I agree that a 1 pixel convergence (especially for only 1 color such as red, in 1 direction) is not bad at all, even at 720p and even less so at 1080p from many viewing distances.
People have been posting screenshots of 3 and 4 pixel misconvergences in multiple colors in both H and V directions, and that would be noticeable, at least to me. One of the reasons people are getting 1080p is to be able to sit closer to the screen, and with LCOS (Pearl) and other low screendoor pjs you're tempted to sit very close to the screen because of the smoothness, and multi-pixel misconvergences are noticeable in some situations.

I would agree with the general consensus that 1 pixel is hardly noticeable under most conditions and not worth worrying about. In fact I'd only measure and test for misconvergence if I could see it under normal viewing. Otherwise, I don't want to know
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post #641 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 05:51 PM
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Depends on tolerances. I had a TX 200 that had what I thought was bad convergence, and it was green pixels out 1 pixel to the left and red pixels out 1 pixel to the right. This was extreme because in reality, the green and red pixels end up being 2 pixels away from one another and movies were noticabley very soft. I warranteed the TX200 and thankfully my replacement was very very good. Within 0.5 pixels over most of the screen, maybe a pixel at the edges. The images are noticabley sharper now. Whatever the case may be, hopefully we will see good sharpness/convergence with the Mitsubishi
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post #642 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

Depends on tolerances. I had a TX 200 that had what I thought was bad convergence, and it was green pixels out 1 pixel to the left and red pixels out 1 pixel to the right. This was extreme and although you couldn't see anything severely bad during movies, they were noticabley soft. I warranteed the TX200 and thankfully my replacement was very very good. Within 0.5 pixels over most of the screen, maybe a pixel at the edges. The images are noticabley sharper now. Whatever the case may be, hopefully we will see good sharpness/convergence with the Mitsubishi


Hear, hear!!!


Edit: BTW, the reason I mentioned that it was perhaps prefereable having the blue out of convergence, rather than red or green (or, both ) was that it probably would not impact the perceived sharpness as much)...
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post #643 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 08:03 PM
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Ok, saw the Mit last night. I like it!

Source:
- Marantz 7600 DVD player SDI out, 480i
- Mediabox (HD media player playing 1080i transport stream clip) HDMI out, 1080i
- Crystalio II video processor HDMI out, 1080p60

DVI Input is used on the Mit. I've been told the HDMI Input give the same picture. Screen is a Stewart StudioTek 1.3 gain 92" diag. Projector placement is around 11' away on a coffee table. The room has total light control. The picture is bright but not too bright. I hope it can work on bigger screen as my target setup will be quite a bit larger.

I use a new video memory on the Mit and reset all control to default. Mit. Sharpness at 0 (-10 to +10). Lamp at Standard (high). The Mit match very well with the video chain. Only minor brightness/contrast/color adjust on the video processor is needed. We tested a few scenes and settle on Auto Iris mode 2.

At first I thought the picture is not in 108p 1:1 mapping mode. The 1 pixel on/off vertical line pattern has a heavy "blue" tint and the horizontal on/off pattern has a "green" tint!Then I found the problem is caused by panel mis-convergence. Though the convergence error is not noticable from normal viewing distance.

The picture looks very solid and clean. Very good on/off contrast and decent ansi contrast. Though better than the last year 720p LCD models, is still can't match the Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP I saw few days ago. Anyway, it's good enough for me compared to my 2 years old LCD projector!

After a few clips of DVD, we switch to HDTV viewing. WOW! The color is GREAT! The resolution is GREAT! Excellent picture dynamic! Tons of WOW factor! I can't stop playing more HD clips!

Before we finished someone suggest compare to a Mit HC3100 (1280x768) DLP mounted on the ceiling. The first thing I saw is SCREENDOOR! It was a huge difference compare to the 1080p! Viewing the same 1080i HD clips (also drive by the Crystalio II video processor now in 720p output), the resolution disappear a lot. It's kind of like comparing SD to HD! Not to mention the weak and dull color on the DLP! There is NO comparison at all!

The Mit 1080p has NO traditional LCD "vertical banding" artifact on all 3 panels. The image is totally smooth. There is still some minor color uniformity in low IRE field but not really noticable in normal viewing.

The bad news is the product release date is delay it seems. My dealer think it may be as late as early Dec. In the meanwhile I'll try to have a good look of the Sony Preal.

regards,

Li On
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post #644 of 1940 Old 10-13-2006, 08:06 PM
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Nice report Li On, thanks! Keep the impressions coming
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post #645 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

Ok, saw the Mit last night. I like it!

I use a new video memory on the Mit and reset all control to default.


Hey Li On, as far as the video memory settings, do they keep the zoom and/or lens shift information? i.e. could you have memory 1 set to full zoom and memory 2 set to no zoom? I doubt the memory settings save this information but that would make a constant height setup super easy.
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post #646 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

The picture looks very solid and clean. Very good on/off contrast and decent ansi contrast. Though better than the last year 720p LCD models, is still can't match the Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP I saw few days ago.
Li On

Concerning what? ANSI contrast?
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post #647 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 04:30 AM
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LI ON - lots of us have been debating how much better the new LCD panels are. When you look at the image of the 5000 is it still obvious to you that you're looking at an LCD image?

When you mention the Marantz being obviously better is it because of the traditional improvement of DLP over LCD or are there other factors? I was looking to get away from LCD on my next projector, but was wondering how really improved it is these days. Two artifact in particular I can't stand are LCD Haze in mixed brightness scenes and the dirty panel look (my Sony doesn't have VB).
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post #648 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

I too was a stickler for "perfect convergence" until I saw what the effect of 1-pixel misconvergence is like in real life viewing conditions. On my Pearl, convergence is perfect in the upper left quadrant of the screen. The worst part of the screen is the lower right, where red, blue and green are separated by one pixel each. And the rest of the screen is somewhere inbetween.

The effect of this is totally invisible from a distance of 1.3xScreen-Width. As you step back from the screen, your eye converges the panels for you. I have no doubt that there is some loss in sharpness as a result of this, but it's nothing that I can discern clearly with my naked eye, and I have tried. Anyone who hasn't experienced the auto-convergence feature built into their eyes really should check it out -- it's a pretty neat effect to experience, even if it is elementary.

The only evidence of misconvergence visible from normal viewing distances is a very faint (VERY faint) red outline on rolling credits.

And before anyone asks, my corrected eyesight (yes, I wear glasses) is 20/20.

Try displaying AVS forum with any projector set to 1920*1080p and see if you can tell the difference. Rather than some new dubious claim of "eye auto-convergence" all I get is a headache

In other words you guys are going off on a tangent because you have not seen better. Close to perfect convergence is a major reason why the 1080p Marantz DLP is superior.
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post #649 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

Depends on tolerances. I had a TX 200 that had what I thought was bad convergence, and it was green pixels out 1 pixel to the left and red pixels out 1 pixel to the right. This was extreme because in reality, the green and red pixels end up being 2 pixels away from one another and movies were noticabley very soft. I warranteed the TX200 and thankfully my replacement was very very good. Within 0.5 pixels over most of the screen, maybe a pixel at the edges. The images are noticabley sharper now. Whatever the case may be, hopefully we will see good sharpness/convergence with the Mitsubishi

Good post.
Here is what excellent convergence in a quality product looks like:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8634891

Scroll down a bit to the white checkered pattern.
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post #650 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

In other words you guys are going off on a tangent because you have not seen better.

I just suggested that people look at it for themselves. And I have seen better, thank you.
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post #651 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Good post.
Here is what excellent convergence in a quality product looks like:

Scroll down a bit to the white checkered pattern.



Sorry, but the Sharp xv-z20000 (in europa z21000) is a single-chip dlp. Ther will never be a convergence.
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post #652 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Concerning what? ANSI contrast?

Mostly ANSI contrast (mixed scene). The On/Off feels very close (Marantz in open iris, Mit in Auto iris 2) with the Marantz has a little edge on black level.

I mentioned the Marantz as I just saw it a few days ago. And because there is something very SPECIAL about the projector. Check my post in the Marantz thread.

Anyway, I like the powerful color rendering on the Mit though.

The Mit still gives a typical LCD projector characters IMO, though without MOST of LCD typical artifacts in the past generations. No vertical banding or panel noise and almost no color uniformity. The picture is very SOLID, meaning not as super smooth as a LCOS/SXRD, or means feel sharper than LCOS/SXRD. The color is very punch and saturated, unless the more "laid-back" tone from a 1-chip DLP. And the mixed scene (ANSI contrast) is still no match to a latest 1-chip DLP, though it's quite good already.

Overall, the picture sure feel like a LCD, though a excellent presentation without any major issue.

Btw, today I tried a Marantz 9600 DVD player for 480i/576i HDMI to the Mit to test it's HQV deinterlacing performance. But the picture has a heavy pixelization look as if there is a mis-match locking on the source. I hope the issue will be resolved in the final product.

regards,

Li On
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post #653 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 01:05 PM
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huh, I was hoping that the Mits had that "film look" that the Pearl gives. It's just that the pearl isn't bright enough for me because I'm going for a bigger screen. I guess by the time I'm ready to buy (in a few months) I should have a better idea of what I'm getting into. Li On, whats your impression on the Pearl? I saw it on a stewart firehawk and thought that is was a little dull. IMO I think you need a studiotek 130 or another white material with a higher gain, especailly on bigger screens.

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post #654 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 01:59 PM
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Lion, can you tell us anything about detail in dark scenes?
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post #655 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Try displaying AVS forum with any projector set to 1920*1080p and see if you can tell the difference. Rather than some new dubious claim of "eye auto-convergence" all I get is a headache

In other words you guys are going off on a tangent because you have not seen better. Close to perfect convergence is a major reason why the 1080p Marantz DLP is superior.

And not operating at anywhere near the pricepoint that we're talking about.
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post #656 of 1940 Old 10-14-2006, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post


Overall, the picture sure feel like a LCD, though a excellent presentation without any major issue.

That's a bit disappointing but what I expected. I really wanted to step up from LCD this time around, but like others I'm backing away from the dimmness of the Pearl - and the Optoma's out of my price range. Looks like some compromises ahead for me.
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post #657 of 1940 Old 10-15-2006, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HTCrazy View Post

That's a bit disappointing but what I expected. I really wanted to step up from LCD this time around, but like others I'm backing away from the dimmness of the Pearl - and the Optoma's out of my price range. Looks like some compromises ahead for me.

I expected similar results from the LCD. That is disappointing though, but for those people who are used to LCD it probably is a deal that cannot be beat.

The Pearl is not that dim, but what are your other options? 1080p DLP's are dimmer than the Pearl with the exception of the H81. So you either need to accept your budget, spend more for the H81, or sit out on the sidelines.

I suggest trying to make the Pearl or H81 (if it can fit your room) work. Good luck!
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post #658 of 1940 Old 10-15-2006, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

huh, I was hoping that the Mits had that "film look" that the Pearl gives. It's just that the pearl isn't bright enough for me because I'm going for a bigger screen. I guess by the time I'm ready to buy (in a few months) I should have a better idea of what I'm getting into. Li On, whats your impression on the Pearl? I saw it on a stewart firehawk and thought that is was a little dull. IMO I think you need a studiotek 130 or another white material with a higher gain, especailly on bigger screens.

I am using the Pearl on a 96" Firehawk and it is plenty. It should work well up to 106" and after that it depends on what your expectations are. The Firehawk is not the best screen to use with the Pearl if you are going >120".
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post #659 of 1940 Old 10-15-2006, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by HTCrazy View Post

That's a bit disappointing but what I expected. I really wanted to step up from LCD this time around, but like others I'm backing away from the dimmness of the Pearl - and the Optoma's out of my price range. Looks like some compromises ahead for me.

I'd take one persons' opinion with a grain of salt. Based on the cumulative reviews of pre-production units that I've read so far the Mits certainly is going to be closer to DLP / SXRD performance than any other LCD to date.
Li On is the only one so far to report a "typical LCD" look, but I am more concerned with his description of the 480i conversion via HDMI, I would have thought this should be flawless. I'd like to read some follow up on that.

And like Andrew P suggests if you're coming from an LCD already the difference should be significant, and might not leave you wanting...
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post #660 of 1940 Old 10-15-2006, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by HTCrazy View Post

That's a bit disappointing but what I expected. I really wanted to step up from LCD this time around, but like others I'm backing away from the dimmness of the Pearl - and the Optoma's out of my price range. Looks like some compromises ahead for me.

After years of reading Li-On's opinion on various projectors I would be very excited about his comments. The fact that he started his post with the words "I like it!" says a lot about this projector. Add to that his numerous comments such as "The picture looks very solid and clean. Very good on/off contrast and decent ansi contrast." plus "...After a few clips of DVD, we switch to HDTV viewing. WOW! The color is GREAT! The resolution is GREAT! Excellent picture dynamic! Tons of WOW factor! I can't stop playing more HD clips!"

The opinion that it can't match the Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP comes as no surprise. We are comparing a $20K DLP projector with a $4.5K one. The Mitsubishi has been sighted in Japan for less than $3K street.
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