The Official Sony VPL-VW50 (Pearl) Calibration/Tweak Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jschuenke View Post

I need to go down to a brightness setting of 35 with the contrast at 80. The 35 brightness setting is far below what I have read from others. I know that everybody's projector is different so there will be some variation.

You are probably feeding the projector a signal with setup. If so, there is nothing wrong.

Greg Rogers
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post #182 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 01:09 PM
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Just set up my Pearl and wanted to thank all for the information on this and related threads. It was and is extremely helpful. I am now in the process of basic calibration with Avia and DVE. Has anyone had any experience with the softwear that was included with my unit, entitled "Image Director"? This cd apparently is primarily useful for recalibrating grey scale. I have not seen any specific mention of it or its uses in previous posts. Thanks for your thoughts and/or experience with it.
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post #183 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prohoc View Post

Just set up my Pearl and wanted to thank all for the information on this and related threads. It was and is extremely helpful. I am now in the process of basic calibration with Avia and DVE. Has anyone had any experience with the softwear that was included with my unit, entitled "Image Director"? This cd apparently is primarily useful for recalibrating grey scale. I have not seen any specific mention of it or its uses in previous posts. Thanks for your thoughts and/or experience with it.

I'm curious about this too. I don't have a computer that can easily be hooked up to my Pearl, so I haven't bothered with it yet. Might be interesting to see what little nuggets are on there.
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post #184 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 01:33 PM
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I think that his may be the same or a very similar cd as the one that initially shipped with the HS-51. I will plug it into the computer tonite and take a look. I would think someone out there may be familiar with its use and it may (if we are all lucky) address some of the concerns voiced here and on other threads about the inability of the other user-available controls to adjust color space or grey scale. Who knows, but it may be worth a try!
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post #185 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prohoc View Post

I think that his may be the same or a very similar cd as the one that initially shipped with the HS-51. I will plug it into the computer tonite and take a look. I would think someone out there may be familiar with its use and it may (if we are all lucky) address some of the concerns voiced here and on other threads about the inability of the other user-available controls to adjust color space or grey scale. Who knows, but it may be worth a try!

I just took a look at it, although I did not have it hooked up to the projector. This is gamma adjustment software. But I do not think 3D gamma is included. Now that would be cool.
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post #186 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Pip View Post

Levels 0, 1, and 11 probably have everything set to zeros from the factory. I would leave those levels alone. If you see problems in your 100 IRE field, I would adjust level 10, not 11.


Pip

What kind of evil things happen if I adjust at the highest or lowest level? What if that's where my issue is? I see it mostly on very bright sky scenes.

For anyone who wants to know if they have the same problem, watch the movie Jarhead. Report back.
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post #187 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 07:57 PM
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Don't have jarhead, but I will rent it soon. Would I have noticed it in Aeon Flux?

Best Regards,
Doug
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post #188 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by shodoug View Post

Don't have jarhead, but I will rent it soon. Would I have noticed it in Aeon Flux?

Best Regards,
Doug

I'm not sure. I haven't watched that one on the Pearl. On Jarhead, it's all the shots of that clear, white sky that showcase the color issues.
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post #189 of 622 Old 10-11-2006, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
originally posted by gremmy :
What kind of evil things happen if I adjust at the highest or lowest level? What if that's where my issue is? I see it mostly on very bright sky scenes.

I don't know. But back when I was adjusting my HS51, I recall reading on this forum that at least with the Sony LCDs, all reported units had levels 0, 1, and 11 set to all zeros. In spite of that, I tried to fix my low IRE problems by adjusting levels 0 and 1. Nothing evil happened, but nothing good either. I had much better luck adjusting levels 2 and 3. I wound up zeroing out everything in levels 0 and 1 again. When I got around to adjusting the high IREs, I never bothered with level 11. I started with level 10 and worked down. That seemed to work.

It's just my experience, and what Iv'e read here. I'm sure there are others who know much more about it than I. Posts from those who have played with it are few and far between. It's such a tedious process that few tackle it.

Please report your experience.

Pip
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post #190 of 622 Old 10-12-2006, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

What DVD player, and what "black" or "brightness" settings on the DVD player?

I have the Denon 1920 DVD player. I didn't know the DVD player had a black level adjustment. The DVD player was set at the default setting to lighten the dark scenes. I changed the setting to leave the black level as is and re-calibrated with DVE. Contrast was left at 80 and the brightness is now at 52 with my Pearl setup. Thanks for the help.
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post #191 of 622 Old 10-12-2006, 01:05 PM
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That's interesting. Most reviewers say the lighter setting (7.5 ire = black) is "correct", but since you may be upconverting, the projector may think it's getting an HD signal, where 0 IRE = black.... in which case the change you made is necessary, and would explain why it looks better.

Or, at least, that is the way I understand it. Hopefully someone can explain better!

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post #192 of 622 Old 10-13-2006, 09:25 AM
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I understand from reviews of the Pearl that RGB gain and bais are adjustable from the user menu without accessing the service menu. I may be just having a bad day, but I have not fund it in the user menu or the handbook. Can anyone enlighten me on whether, in fact, gain and bias can be adjusted from the user menu and if so, where to find it? Thanks.
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post #193 of 622 Old 10-13-2006, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prohoc View Post

I understand from reviews of the Pearl that RGB gain and bais are adjustable from the user menu without accessing the service menu. I may be just having a bad day, but I have not fund it in the user menu or the handbook. Can anyone enlighten me on whether, in fact, gain and bias can be adjusted from the user menu and if so, where to find it? Thanks.

Answered on the previous page of this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8616601
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post #194 of 622 Old 10-13-2006, 12:17 PM
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Thanks gremmy. Like I said...must be having a bad day. I missed it!
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post #195 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 12:40 PM
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For those who are interested, I just delved into the Service Menu for the first time, to see if I could make 3D gamma adjustments by eye.

And the answer is, no way.

First of all, once you enter the 3D gamma menus, you are presented with full field IRE patterns that are a strange color temperature that makes pink discolorations practically invisible to the eye.

Secondly, on my mid-range IREs, the screen is leaning toward what appears to be a mostly nuetral shade of gray toward the middle, and a greenish-gray around the entire border. Of these two shades, it is impossible for me to tell which one I should calibrate toward. My instinct tells me to calibrate toward the more nuetral appearing color, but with these whacked-out color-temp screens, it's so hard to tell. Plus, there's so much *more* of the greenish color I'm afraid to start fiddling with it for fear of what it will do to surrounding IREs. News flash: We could totally screw our Pearls up messing around with the 3D gamma settings. Unless you know what you're doing, stay far away.

I also tried boosting the blue panel driver to 45, but contrary to SOWK's experience, I noticed a shift of color toward blue that had a very slight washing out effect on warmer colors. I believe that's why it works to begin with. So I put the blue panel driver back to 42.

I am very curious to find out what WM is going to charge for a full calibration, since I think that is the real answer for those of us picky enough to care. I might just let this one go, since my uniformity issues are very minor.
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post #196 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Turn the unit back to Wide Color mode. Thats where the major difference is coming.

If you have the color set to normal, you lose alot of 3D effect from the get go.

I'll take a little more saturation and 3D effect then a flat accurate image.


Then bring up blue 3 in the panel driver.

Mine is set at 37 by default.

Yours is 42?

what is your red and green?
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post #197 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

For those who are interested, I just delved into the Service Menu for the first time, to see if I could make 3D gamma adjustments by eye.

And the answer is, no way.

First of all, once you enter the 3D gamma menus, you are presented with full field IRE patterns that are a strange color temperature that makes pink discolorations practically invisible to the eye.

Secondly, on my mid-range IREs, the screen is leaning toward what appears to be a mostly nuetral shade of gray toward the middle, and a greenish-gray around the entire border. Of these two shades, it is impossible for me to tell which one I should calibrate toward. My instinct tells me to calibrate toward the more nuetral appearing color, but with these whacked-out color-temp screens, it's so hard to tell. Plus, there's so much *more* of the greenish color I'm afraid to start fiddling with it for fear of what it will do to surrounding IREs. News flash: We could totally screw our Pearls up messing around with the 3D gamma settings. Unless you know what you're doing, stay far away.

I also tried boosting the blue panel driver to 45, but contrary to SOWK's experience, I noticed a shift of color toward blue that had a very slight washing out effect on warmer colors. I believe that's why it works to begin with. So I put the blue panel driver back to 42.

I am very curious to find out what WM is going to charge for a full calibration, since I think that is the real answer for those of us picky enough to care. I might just let this one go, since my uniformity issues are very minor.

Gremmy can you provide more information on how to get to this part of the menu, and what you discovered about how the settings work?

For someone like me that has much more striking uniformity issues, I might have more luck bringing them back into the right ballpark with a colorimter.

Thanks,

Sage
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post #198 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Turn the unit back to Wide Color mode. Thats where the major difference is coming.

If you have the color set to normal, you lose alot of 3D effect from the get go.

I'll take a little more saturation and 3D effect then a flat accurate image.


Then bring up blue 3 in the panel driver.

Mine is set at 37 by default.

Yours is 42?

what is your red and green?

Yeah, mine was set at 42 by default. I believe that red and green were both at 85, but I would have to double check. I just can't get the wide color space to look right. I can tinker with it again to see what I can accomplish, but everything looked overblown and oversaturated. I do like a bit of oversaturation on the Pearl, but I prefer the oversaturation of the normal color space instead of Sony's home grown color space. But I'll mess around with "wide" and see what I can do.
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post #199 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Gremmy can you provide more information on how to get to this part of the menu, and what you discovered about how the settings work?

For someone like me that has much more striking uniformity issues, I might have more luck bringing them back into the right ballpark with a colorimter.

Thanks,

Sage

1) First, enter the service menu by hitting ENTER-->ENTER-->LEFT-->ENTER on the remote

2) A dialog box will appear and ask you if you want to enter service mode. Say yes.

3) Hit the menu button the remote. The normal user menu will appear.

4) You will notice that there is a new, heretofore unseen option at the very bottom of the lefthand navigation of the menu. It's called "Device," I believe. Use the down arrow to navigate to "Device."

5) The righthand frame will have several options, including gamma. navigate to the gamma option and press ENTER.

6) Welcome to the gamma screens. You will probably start out at 0 IRE, which is level 1. A giant yellow cursor-like square will be position next to the "Level" indicator, meaning that if you start hitting the "right" arrow you can navigate up through the 11 levels (or up to 100 IRE).

7) You can use normal arrow navigation to highlight the "position" indicator and navigate through all the various "positions" at each level. There are lots of "positions," so doing an entire level will take hours, as has been reported previously on this thread.

8) Use the link that was posted a few pages ago (Pip might have posted it) in this thread for more information on how to calibrate, should you choose to proceed.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
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post #200 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

1) First, enter the service menu by hitting ENTER-->ENTER-->LEFT-->ENTER on the remote

2) A dialog box will appear and ask you if you want to enter service mode. Say yes.

3) Hit the menu button the remote. The normal user menu will appear.

4) You will notice that there is a new, heretofore unseen option at the very bottom of the lefthand navigation of the menu. It's called "Device," I believe. Use the down arrow to navigate to "Device."

5) The righthand frame will have several options, including gamma. navigate to the gamma option and press ENTER.

6) Welcome to the gamma screens. You will probably start out at 0 IRE, which is level 1. A giant yellow cursor-like square will be position next to the "Level" indicator, meaning that if you start hitting the "right" arrow you can navigate up through the 11 levels (or up to 100 IRE).

7) You can use normal arrow navigation to highlight the "position" indicator and navigate through all the various "positions" at each level. There are lots of "positions," so doing an entire level will take hours, as has been reported previously on this thread.

8) Use the link that was posted a few pages ago (Pip might have posted it) in this thread for more information on how to calibrate, should you choose to proceed.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Okay, so I did this (before you managed to post this ).

I skipped to 80 IRE (where my worst problem is). I wrote down a bunch of settings and spent 30 minutes at this. In 30 minutes I was able to significantly mitigate my problem (at 80 IRE). However, I'm now slightly dim in the middle, so I will need to bump up red and blue slightly.

My guess is that with about 6 to 8 hours of by-hand work I can significantly mitigate this from 20 to 90 IRE, where the problem is the worst.

I'm going to try using R / B / G filters, and using them to view white field uniformity using their patterns. I think that might make it even easier.
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post #201 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Okay, so I did this (before you managed to post this ).

I skipped to 80 IRE (where my worst problem is). I wrote down a bunch of settings and spent 30 minutes at this. In 30 minutes I was able to significantly mitigate my problem (at 80 IRE). However, I'm now slightly dim in the middle, so I will need to bump up red and blue slightly.

My guess is that with about 6 to 8 hours of by-hand work I can significantly mitigate this from 20 to 90 IRE, where the problem is the worst.

I'm going to try using R / B / G filters, and using them to view white field uniformity using their patterns. I think that might make it even easier.

Okay, I have been thinking about this more. I would love feedback from Mr. Phelps. :=)

My *guess* is that there is significant interaction between adjacent IRE fields. So, the way to try this is to probably to skip IREs. For example, do 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. Then go back and do 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9.

This way I don't over adjust if there IS an interaction.

Man this is going to be tedious!
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post #202 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Okay, I have been thinking about this more. I would love feedback from Mr. Phelps. :=)

My *guess* is that there is significant interaction between adjacent IRE fields. So, the way to try this is to probably to skip IREs. For example, do 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. Then go back and do 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9.

This way I don't over adjust if there IS an interaction.

Man this is going to be tedious!

Do keep us posted.

Just out of curiosity, what purpose are the filters supposed to serve? I tried viewing the screen through a blue filter (at someone else's earlier suggestion), and everything just looks blue.
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post #203 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 09:08 PM
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Gremmy...

Chosing a filter in the color the lamp runs out of 1st, allows you to calibrate with the other colors at higher amounts, expanding contrast.

On the Sony 51A, the lamp runs out of RED 1st. So using a FL-Day filter which shifts the color to RED, you can calibrate BLUE/GREEN bias/gain settings to higher values at any given color temp like 6500K.

The Ruby Xenon lamp runs out of BLUE 1st, so a blue filter would allow the adjustment of RED/GREEN to higher values.

The expansion of contrast through calibration with a filter, typically allows for darker blacks and only slightly darker whites.

I was able to measure this contrast increase on the 51A calibrated with the FL-Day filter, which was a nice way to go with a HP screen. However, in situations where lumens levels are already near the low end tipping point, calibrating with a filter usually makes lumen performance suffer even more.

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post #204 of 622 Old 10-14-2006, 09:36 PM
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100% accurate, but not what I meant. :=)

I mean holding a filter up to my eye to judge uniformity of a particular color. So, if I hold up a red filter, primarily red passes through it. I can use it judge red uniformity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

Gremmy...

Chosing a filter in the color the lamp runs out of 1st, allows you to calibrate with the other colors at higher amounts, expanding contrast.

On the Sony 51A, the lamp runs out of RED 1st. So using a FL-Day filter which shifts the color to RED, you can calibrate BLUE/GREEN bias/gain settings to higher values at any given color temp like 6500K.

The Ruby Xenon lamp runs out of BLUE 1st, so a blue filter would allow the adjustment of RED/GREEN to higher values.

The expansion of contrast through calibration with a filter, typically allows for darker blacks and only slightly darker whites.

I was able to measure this contrast increase on the 51A calibrated with the FL-Day filter, which was a nice way to go with a HP screen. However, in situations where lumens levels are already near the low end tipping point, calibrating with a filter usually makes lumen performance suffer even more.

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post #205 of 622 Old 10-15-2006, 12:59 AM
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I'll post pics tomorrow, but I spent about 4 hours on this and would describe it as quite successful, with a few caveats.

First off, my green is almost complete gone, especially at high IREs where it was most visible in the past. 20 IRE is still slightly plus green in the middle, but it is much more subtle.

Second, I also was able to dial out some of the red that was on the top portion of my image. This helps even out the overall white field.

That's why I would say this has been succesful. The green blob that cursed me is now gone.

Here are some of the tidbits I learned:
- at lower IREs, the magnitude of the +/- changes is greater, so you need less adjustment.
- because your eye is so sensitive at low IREs to brightness, I had to replace some of the green I removed with red and blue. I did not due this at higher IREs, as my eye can't perceive this slight change in brightness.
- I had to re calibrate my grayscale. I would not recommend doing this without having proper calibration tools, and knowing how to use them. You run a significant risk of ending up worse than you started.
- I discovered that every single green value at every point on every IRE was set to 0. Only R and B had been modified. Lazy workers?
- My uniformity is no where near perfect -- WP could do a MUCH better job with this, I have absolutely no doubt. However, I was able to get it to be ballpark similar to my RP CRT -- which is to say, watchable. Overall, I tend to be slightly plus red on the top and a bit plus blue / green towards the bottom.
- I would only recommend fiddling here if you have severe problems, and are willing to spend a lot of time working on this.
- I have set my DI to Manual, and I have no idea how the DI interacts with the 3d gamma, or whether there is any secret Sony special sauce that modified these settings (I sure hope not).

Edit:
- Previously when I had measured the Left, Center and Right portions of the screen at 80 IRE for white field uniformity, I had measured 6800 Kelvin, 6500 Kelvin and 5800 Kelvin (to be more exact: I could only acheive D65 on a small portion of the screen). I re-measured and found that I was slightly plus blue on the very left (6800 Kelvin) and very close to D65 in the middle AND on the right. The slight plus blue on the left is not noticable to my eye in real world content, including B&W (where it would tend to show).
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post #206 of 622 Old 10-15-2006, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

100% accurate, but not what I meant. :=)

I mean holding a filter up to my eye to judge uniformity of a particular color. So, if I hold up a red filter, primarily red passes through it. I can use it judge red uniformity.

This didn't work, and was clearly a dumb idea. :=)
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post #207 of 622 Old 10-15-2006, 11:07 AM
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I don't think all the greens are set at 0 due to lazy workers. As you discovered yourself, adjusting the green causes changes in brightness - due to the fact that our vision is much more sensitive to brightness in the greens. I believe the system is designed to have all the adjustments done by adding or subtracting reds and blues. I'm no expert - I read this several years ago on this forum regarding one of the earlier Sony projectors.

Very glad you have had success. And thanks for posting your methods. I'm sure others will tackle this now.

Thanks,
Pip
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post #208 of 622 Old 10-15-2006, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip View Post

I don't think all the greens are set at 0 due to lazy workers. As you discovered yourself, adjusting the green causes changes in brightness - due to the fact that our vision is much more sensitive to brightness in the greens. I believe the system is designed to have all the adjustments done by adding or subtracting reds and blues. I'm no expert - I read this several years ago on this forum regarding one of the earlier Sony projectors.

Very glad you have had success. And thanks for posting your methods. I'm sure others will tackle this now.

Thanks,
Pip

Hi Pip --

I was being facetious when I blamed lazy Sony employees. :=) I was actually thinking something similar to what you describe. As an aftifact to this for the manufacturing process, however, it means that units with particularly large changes in green intensity (such as in the freaking middle of the screen) may have significantly poorer uniformity that than others.

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post #209 of 622 Old 10-16-2006, 02:15 AM
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Has anyone tried using this projector in a constant 2.35:1 aspect ratio setup? I was wondering wether I need an externel scaler/video processor to use my Prismasonic lense with the Pearl.. Anyone know if it's possible to "zoom" in on the picture material on a 2.35 movie?
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post #210 of 622 Old 10-16-2006, 08:03 AM
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Will the pearl work with a 106" matte white 1.0 gain screen? Room will be dark with no problems re ambient light.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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