Epson EMP-TW1000 1080p LCD HDMI1.3 - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 11:17 AM
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I'll put up some pics in a few minutes of both pjs in theater black 1 mode with the filtered light from my blackout shades. The TW700 is significantly brighter even in Theater Black mode. If you sit far enough back for SDE not to affect you at all, I can easily someone choosing the TW700 over the TW1000 for its brightness.
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post #272 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 11:18 AM
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So the Epson is broken already?
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post #273 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 11:49 AM
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I don't know if "broken" is the word I would use. It works flawlessly for about 10 minutes at the time now . And then gives me that auto iris message. It will need to go back.
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post #274 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 12:06 PM
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Makes you wonder if that's why PJ mysteriously had a TW1000 *available* when they're extremely scarce.
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post #275 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 12:10 PM
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Tha'Ts a bummer. I guess you will be paying for the shipping. Or will Epson USA take care of it?
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post #276 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 12:32 PM
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I've emailed the importer and just heard back. They suggested I reset it again. I've already done that 3 times. It happens predictably after 10 minutes or so of being on.

They also quoted me their warranty policy:
"Warranty is valid only in Japan for 1 year. It is not valid in your country.
International warranty or more than 1 year warranty will NOT be applied.
When machines need warrant repair, you should send machines to makers in Japan, via us.
Shipping cost of Item's round trip will be your responsibility."

I responded that since this projector was obviously defective within the first 2 hours, it should be replaced. I also mentioned that there were folks here at AVS considering buying from them and that I'd like to be able to give them a good recommendation.

I guess worst case scenario I will end up paying round trip shipping and being without the TW1000 for a couple of weeks. In that case, the price of the pj just effectively increased by the cost of shipping to Japan.
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post #277 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSalita View Post

jacksonian, it's difficult to follow which devices you are referring to so please always use model numbers instead of make or pronouns.

Not sure what you were having trouble with. All of the pictures up until now were either of the Epson TW1000 1080p projector or of my old Panasonic AE500 720p projector. It should be clear which is which in the photos, but if someone's not sure, I'll label them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSalita View Post

I'd like to see a summary of your evaluations point-by-point for each projector such as brightness, contrast, colors, SDE, connections, etc.

That comparison is easy. The Epson TW1000 dominates the Panasonic AE500 in every category, not even close.


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Originally Posted by BobSalita View Post

How do you judge the viewability with ambient light? Looks pretty good from your pix.

The TW1000 does quite well compared to the Panasonic, but then the TW700 that I just got today makes that same jump again compared to the TW1000. Follow me? It's about the same relative increase in brightness from the TW1000 to TW700 as it is from the Panasonic 500 to the Epson TW1000.
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post #278 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I can say for sure that the TW700 is significantly brighter. The 1600/1200 lumens ratio appears correct. I'd say maybe a 25-30% brightness increase with the TW700.

Bada bing, bada boom......I think I just made my decision....99% there, just awaiting a few comparison shots that be posted....
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post #279 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:05 PM
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Okay, here goes. I could not get them both on the screen at the same time and be fair to either one, the shadow from the masking made it impossible to do.

So what I did was get both projectors lined up, set to 6500k, Theater Black 1 mode, Auto Iris OFF. I got them centered on the screen, put the tripod in place, and then took identical shots by just putting a dvd case in front of the lens of the one I wasn't shooting. So they are exactly the same frame from exactly the same spot.

And these shots were taken from 3 feet and 4 feet from the screen. Yes, I said 3 and 4 feet from a 106" screen with a BluRay set to output 1080i. I won't tell you which is which yet, but i promise that out of each pair, one is the 1080p and one is the 720p.

*any moire (wavy line pattern) is a function of the camera and is not on the image on the screen* And ignore the shadow of the tripod in the second shot, I couldn't move it if I wanted to give you an exact duplicate spot.













So everyone who tells me there's a "drastic" difference in detail between a 1080p and a 720p pj on high quality material, tell me which is which? Well, the SDE will give it away. But I challenge you to find more detail.
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post #280 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:19 PM
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Here's a shot showing the kind of light coming into the room. Those are 5 foot tall windows lining the entire wall perpendicular to the screen. Pics taken close to noon on a partly cloudy day here in NC.



And here's the effect it had on brightness between the two, both still on Theater Black 1 mode.
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post #281 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:25 PM
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So the bottom one on the "effect of your lighting post" is the tw700, correct?
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post #282 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

So the bottom one on the "effect of your lighting post" is the tw700, correct?

For sure. And remember those are both in Theater Black 1. That's nowhere close to what they can do in Living Room or Dynamic.
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post #283 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:28 PM
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As far as which images i prefer of the pairs you have posted thus far, it changes from shot to shot. I think it must be moire dependent (or some other pattern effect that I am detecting from the browser shot). In the first set of images of Denzel, I DEFINITELY prefer the bottom one. In the second set of images I prefer the top one. The last set of images are virtually identical to me. I can not really tell any difference, but after looking hard, see more "patterning" on the right hand edge of the lower image and therefore prefer the top one. Interesting that neither of these seem to show a big brightness improvement over the other. Why is that vis-a-vis your 25% +/- comment?
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post #284 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

As far as which images i prefer of the pairs you have posted thus far, it changes from shot to shot. I think it must be moire dependent (or some other pattern effect that I am detecting from the browser shot). In the first set of images of Denzel, I DEFINITELY prefer the bottom one. In the second set of images I prefer the top one. The last set of images are virtually identical to me. I can not really tell any difference, but after looking hard, see more "patterning" on the right hand edge of the lower image and therefore prefer the top one. Interesting that neither of these seem to show a big brightness improvement over the other. Why is that vis-a-vis your 25% +/- comment?

You chose the 1080p correctly in the first 2 sets. The TW1000 is on Bottom, Top, Top in that series.

Brightness wasn't an issue on these I think for 2 reasons:
1) It was a bit cloudier by the time I got to these (but still nowhere close to dark in the room)
2) I was so close to the screen, I think that negated some of the effect of the room light

But I assure you they were taken seconds apart in the same room light in the same picture mode, Theater Black 1
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post #285 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:40 PM
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Now, if I could take away the screen door in those, does anyone honestly think they could tell a difference based on detail?
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post #286 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

You chose the 1080p correctly in the first 2 sets. The TW1000 is on Bottom, Top, Top in that series.

Just to make sure that we are on the same page, I chose the bottom, top, top. So, are you saying I correctly i.d.'d the 1080p on all 3 sets then?

Also, what was the patterning I saw then, was it the SDE? If so, then I would love to see these image snapshots from something like 8' or 9'. I think you said these were at 3' and 4' (and maybe you did this to see if the SDE was profound). But I will never sit this close.
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post #287 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 01:55 PM
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Jacksonian,

What about some subjective comparisons between the TW700 and TW1000, regarding black levels, shadow detail, sharpness, image noise, overall impression from the picture at different scenes, etc. ?. Will it be possible to get something with the problematic TW1000 ?.

Up to now we only know:
1. SDE is similar (i.e non existant) in both, from 1.5X,
2. the TW700 is ~25% brighter,
3. It doesn't seem there is a significant difference regarding detail.

Last request, will it be possible for you to compare still images taken by a high quality camera between these two pjs ?, this will be the only way to know for sure you are not limited by the quality of the transfer.
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post #288 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 02:24 PM
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Thought this discussion on the quality of lens used on the new JVC would be relevant here because both the Epsons TW700/810 and TW1000 also have high quality Fujinon lenses.

JVC Lens
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post #289 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

Just to make sure that we are on the same page, I chose the bottom, top, top. So, are you saying I correctly i.d.'d the 1080p on all 3 sets then?

That is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

Also, what was the patterning I saw then, was it the SDE?

The grid pattern on the 720p pj images is screen door (SDE). The curved line patterning on the 1080p pj image is called moire. It is NOT present on the actual image on the screen. I think because of the LACK of screen door, the camera is actually picking up the pattern in the screen material and making a moire effect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

If so, then I would love to see these image snapshots from something like 8' or 9'. I think you said these were at 3' and 4' (and maybe you did this to see if the SDE was profound). But I will never sit this close.

I took those at such an extremely close distance to prove a very specific point: that you cannot see more detail in the 1080p pj image even at close distance with some of the best consumer grade material available to normal AVS'ers.

They were not meant in any way to show you what SDE might look like at normal distances. They do however show you how ridiculously small the pixels are on the 1080p machines and that there is no issue with SDE on those and no need for anything like a defocus or smoothscreen.

I will take some normal viewing distance shots of the 710 for you guys maybe tonight.
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post #290 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

What about some subjective comparisons between the TW700 and TW1000, regarding black levels, shadow detail, sharpness, image noise, overall impression from the picture at different scenes, etc. ?. Will it be possible to get something with the problematic TW1000 ?.

Up to now we only know:
1. SDE is similar (i.e non existant) in both, from 1.5X,
2. the TW700 is ~25% brighter,
3. It doesn't seem there is a significant difference regarding detail.

It's just now dark here, so I'm going to do a little more comparison. The TW1000 is only running in 10 minute increments, so that will be limited. But I will get you guys some good shots of the 710 at normal viewing distances.

So I'll reserve judgment for now since I haven't seen the TW700 in a dark room yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

Last request, will it be possible for you to compare still images taken by a high quality camera between these two pjs ?, this will be the only way to know for sure you are not limited by the quality of the transfer.

No fancy cameras here. You'll just have to take my word for it, sorry. I'll try to keep commenting on whether they seem accurate to me or not.
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post #291 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I've emailed the importer and just heard back. They suggested I reset it again. I've already done that 3 times. It happens predictably after 10 minutes or so of being on.

They also quoted me their warranty policy:
"Warranty is valid only in Japan for 1 year. It is not valid in your country.
International warranty or more than 1 year warranty will NOT be applied.
When machines need warrant repair, you should send machines to makers in Japan, via us.
Shipping cost of Item's round trip will be your responsibility."

I responded that since this projector was obviously defective within the first 2 hours, it should be replaced. I also mentioned that there were folks here at AVS considering buying from them and that I'd like to be able to give them a good recommendation.

I guess worst case scenario I will end up paying round trip shipping and being without the TW1000 for a couple of weeks. In that case, the price of the pj just effectively increased by the cost of shipping to Japan.

I think we should all donate something towards his shipping costs. It doesn't have to be much, even $5-10 or more from enough people will cover it. He is donating enough of his money, time and effort from which we are all benefitting. Anyone else interested?

Ye who now will bless the poor shall yourselves find blessing.
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post #292 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

I think we should all donate something towards his shipping costs. It doesn't have to be much, even $5-10 or more from enough people will cover it. He is donating enough of his money, time and effort from which we are all benefitting. Anyone else interested?

I like your attitude. You sound like a very generous person. I'm in. Set it up. PM
I don't want to sound cheap, so I'll go for the lowest amount $5

I too appreciate what Jack has done and it is a BIG BUMMER that he has received a Lemon.

It's Christmas Yal, lend a helping had.
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post #293 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 06:17 PM
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Thanks for the offer to help with shipping, guys, but I'll be OK. But I do only plan on keeping one of these babies. So I'm hoping someone will want the other. I'm hoping PJ & Epson will just send me a new one.

My wife is telling me she likes the brighter one (the TW700). Of course, SDE has never bothered her and she doesn't understand my issues about blacks.
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post #294 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

My wife is telling me she likes the brighter one (the TW700). Of course, SDE has never bothered her and she doesn't understand my issues about blacks.

Ahhh since it's the season you need to ask for one of these for Xmas !
LL
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post #295 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 06:40 PM
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That's funny, but she's a trooper. She's been reading a book while I spend hours taking pics for you guys, and then she's honest about which one she likes better.

In theater modes for movies at night, she prefers the TW1000. For any ambient light viewing, she prefers the TW700. Not earthshaking conclusions, but she lets me A/B them without her knowing which is which.

The only problem with this comparison is that you really can't make them equal brightness. If you cranked the TW1000 up enough to equal the lower power modes of the TW700, you'd remove the color filter and that would throw everything off.
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post #296 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 08:14 PM
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What do you guys think of this screenshot?
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post #297 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 08:33 PM
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I like the darks against that blue/white. I seem to be in the same camp as your wife. I like the punch of the brighter picture. I will have a 110" screen and sit at 12', that should be NO problem via your analysis.
I would bring ya some beer for your hard work, but you said you don't drink. Wine?
I think you said the 1000 was quiter in the brighter modes, is the 700 fan audible in theater 1?
Bummer on the auto iris, sorry.
Thanks for the hard work, this time of year time is precious in my house, so your wife is truly a trooper on this one.
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post #298 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 08:36 PM
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You should be OK. That picture has a trick to it though. Look at it closely.

Sent you a PM yesterday, didn't hear back.
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post #299 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

What do you guys think of this screenshot?

Its hard to say on my end, but it looks to me that you might be seeing good DEPTH of image. Is that your take on it?
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post #300 of 1603 Old 12-19-2006, 08:45 PM
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I got your pm about 3 hours ago, I got home and relieved the babysitter as the wife was out getting Christmas done. I have really only just now gotten to catch up. (up at 5am, left WS at 5:30am and hit accounts all the way to asheville, down to spartanburg, over to rockhill, and then home around 7pm) Real busy next 2 days and then the grand finale on Monday!
I am not available for guinea pig ops till next week. I hate that too. Let me know what is good if anything, since the 1000 is on a future roundtrip ticket.
Stu

I didn't catch what you were eluding to about the picture. I did notice some blue on the edges of the the head of #5, but that was about all. Viewing from my 12" PowerBook, so not a lot of screen to see real well with, that and I am not seeing as well as my younger eyes let me.
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