Epson EMP-TW1000 1080p LCD HDMI1.3 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 09:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I know Epson does not permit advertising prices below MSRP, however, I do not see how they can keep a dealer from selling below MSRP.
Scott B is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 09:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jacksonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 4,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B View Post

I know Epson does not permit advertising prices below MSRP, however, I do not see how they can keep a dealer from selling below MSRP.

You're apparently not familiar with MAP. Many companies establish a minimum pricing. If you are an authorized dealer you have to agree not to sell below that price. If you do, they will revoke your authorized dealer status and in some cases take away your dealership for that product altogether.

That's why you've seen some people mention that their dealer sold them the projector at MAP/MSRP but then gave them a free bulb or a big discount on another product. That way they don't get in trouble for selling the pj below MAP and risking their status as authorized dealer.
jacksonian is offline  
post #93 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 09:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Sure sounds like price fixing.
Scott B is offline  
post #94 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jacksonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 4,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It is. But they're only fixing their product's price. You're welcome to sell your pj for less as Panasonic and Sanyo do and kill them in sales #'s. It's only illegal if more than one company gets together to fix the prices of the market.

If you don't want to pay that much, just buy the Panasonics or Sanyos, etc...they all come with Epson panels.
jacksonian is offline  
post #95 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 09:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jacksonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 4,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm seriously considering ordering the TW1000 from Japan. If they hadn't said it was delayed due to D6 panel production issues, I probably would have already done it.
jacksonian is offline  
post #96 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 10:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
caesar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs
Posts: 4,352
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

You're apparently not familiar with MAP. Many companies establish a minimum pricing. If you are an authorized dealer you have to agree not to sell below that price. If you do, they will revoke your authorized dealer status and in some cases take away your dealership for that product altogether.

That's why you've seen some people mention that their dealer sold them the projector at MAP/MSRP but then gave them a free bulb or a big discount on another product. That way they don't get in trouble for selling the pj below MAP and risking their status as authorized dealer.

Interesting. I will now negotiate with the Epson dealers to throw in a free bulb replacement with my purchase at full MAP/msrp of the Epson 810 pj. I have not found any selling below msrp/map -- that's for sure.
caesar1 is offline  
post #97 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 10:36 AM
Member
 
fantasyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I'm seriously considering ordering the TW1000 from Japan. If they hadn't said it was delayed due to D6 panel production issues, I probably would have already done it.

Me too....meanwhile I'm investigating in japan most reliable (and cheap!) AV shops

For the lack of care....a pair of in-depth review would solve that, but noone has seen a working sample and reported some real data, or opinions, AFAIK......

.....Epson should really begin to ship some review samples to japan av sites soon (IF the december scheduled release is mantained, of course! ), asian forumers please report back!
fantasyl is offline  
post #98 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 10:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jacksonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 4,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, I've got the urge to just order it before anyone's even seen one. It's a strange urge to gamble. I might be the first one with the a great pj, or I might be the fool that bought a turkey from Japan
jacksonian is offline  
post #99 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 11:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Chris Dallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada & Malibu California.
Posts: 1,248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

Yeah, I've got the urge to just order it before anyone's even seen one. It's a strange urge to gamble. I might be the first one with the a great pj, or I might be the fool that bought a turkey from Japan


I'd say the latter..

lol

Cheers
Chris

Sony VPL-VW500ES, 150" width 2.35:1 screen, Proud owner of 1 of 399 Enzo Ferrari's in the world, a gorgeous yellow Ferrari 599GTB, + a 1970 Road Runner see it here

Chris Dallas is offline  
post #100 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 11:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Epson does make fine projectors, and I would not be the least bit surprised if the TW-1000 noticeably outperformed the Mitsubishi and Panasonic offerings as well as Sanyo's upcoming 1080P LCD projector. The Japanese pricing is tempting. I am on the JVC DLA-RS1 pre-order list, however, I am not sure that I will be happy with its light output. In all other respects the DLA-RS1 sure looks promising. The Epson TW-1000 is likely to be quite a bit brighter.
Scott B is offline  
post #101 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 12:16 PM
Senior Member
 
HT-Naimee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Honestly, I can't see Epson making a crappy FullHD pj. They can't afford selling crap in Japan because it will ruin sales worldwide.
So really the only risk you have is getting one with a fault or it dying on you and you not having any warranty.

But honestly, pj warranties are a joke anyway. So IMHO risk is small IF you get one that works out of the box. Plus you can buy two for the price of one anyway!!!!
HT-Naimee is offline  
post #102 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 12:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,475
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked: 149
"The Epson TW-1000 is likely to be quite a bit brighter."

Perhaps, depending on usage.

The 550 was brighter than the competition, but only in "living room" modes where co0lor accuracy was sacrificed for lumens.

IIRC it was on par with the others when adjusted for best quality video.

And the JVC may be able to exceed its spec's if it has the adjustment capability to increase green/blue gains.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #103 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 02:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RTROSE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Central Indiana
Posts: 6,157
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 46
What'S the street price in the us?

Well look here.

Looks like here in the US it will be $4,999.00

Regards,

RTROSE

My (slower than molasses) HT build here.
Now a Certified Carpet Counselor and Plumbing Counselor (Self given titles - pay no attention).
Enjoying my "almost done" theater.
RTROSE is offline  
post #104 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 03:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Noah,
I hope you are correct about the JVC. You have to love the contrast spec and the internal Gennum processing. I think a little too much emphasis is placed on light output. In my completely light controlled HT, switching a projector from low to high mode really only results in a barely visible increase in brightness even though the actual lumen output might be 30% higher. I guess what I am trying to say is that the difference between a 700 lumen and 900 lumen projector (assuming measured and not marketing lumens) is not very big. If we assume that the RS1 will put out 700 lumens, I would expect it to appear brighter in most scenes than other 700 lumen projectors given (1) its very high native contrast, and (2) the absence of a dynamic iris which eliminates any chance of brightness compression.
Scott B is offline  
post #105 of 1603 Old 12-04-2006, 05:05 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
AnthonyP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 17,632
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


You're apparently not familiar with MAP. Many companies establish a minimum pricing.



I am familiar enough to know the A in map stands for advertised
AnthonyP is offline  
post #106 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 12:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HiHoStevo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Las Vegas & Cedar Hills
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Before everyone gets too excited about the price.... remember the Pro Cinema 800 vs. the TW600 sold everywhere except North America... it was exactly the same projector the only difference was the color of the case and the optional items inside the box (ceiling mount, cable), but Epson was trying to sell the CP800 in the USA for about Double or more what the TW600 was selling for in the rest of the world...........

So it would not surprise me at all to see Epson selling this projector for $2,500 in Japan, but trying to sell it for $6k in the USA.

There are just two theories for successfully quarreling with a woman -- neither one works!
The Barn - Use Password = AVSForum
HiHoStevo is offline  
post #107 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 01:25 AM
Advanced Member
 
dangc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Epson Street prices are typically the same as MSRP. Doesn't look like they want to sell this projector in the states....
dangc is offline  
post #108 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 01:45 AM
Senior Member
 
HT-Naimee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Doesn't look like they want to sell it anywhere outside Japan.

I really do not understand how a company can seriously alienate their buyers like that.

Why on earth would they be giving them away in JApan like that and then charge DOUBLE the price in Europe and America?
Surely Europe and the US are the bigger markets than the japanese market on its own.
HT-Naimee is offline  
post #109 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 03:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HTCrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: State of Disbelief
Posts: 4,888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
It's interesting that that same well known Japanese vendor is stating that there's a severe shortage of D6 panels that's limiting the production of the TW1000. If that's true, it could be that 1080 LCD PJ's will come way down in price once the panels are plentiful.

It's also interesting that despite the shortage, the (well known that must not be named) vendor has the 1000 listed for right aroud $3K - which is several hundred less than the Mits HC5000. When those panels are in abundant supply, could these PJ's be streeting in the low $2000s? Me thinks SO.
HTCrazy is offline  
post #110 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 06:57 AM
Senior Member
 
HT-Naimee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
AFAIK the panels are prioritized. Mitsu has highest priority. Then probably Panasonic will be supplied and then Epsons own pjs.
Of course all will receive batches but Mitsu will be getting the most panels.

But whatever they do the price policy of Epson remains a mystery to me. How on earth can they dump the price on the japanese market compared to the rest of the world and then top the prices in Europe compared to the Mitsu and Pana?
HT-Naimee is offline  
post #111 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 08:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jacksonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 4,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP View Post

I am familiar enough to know the A in map stands for advertised

You're correct. And that still doesn't change how it works. Call a few Epson dealers or high end watch dealers or high end furniture dealers if you don't believe me.
jacksonian is offline  
post #112 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 08:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jacksonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 4,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B View Post

Epson does make fine projectors, and I would not be the least bit surprised if the TW-1000 noticeably outperformed the Mitsubishi and Panasonic offerings as well as Sanyo's upcoming 1080P LCD projector. The Japanese pricing is tempting. I am on the JVC DLA-RS1 pre-order list, however, I am not sure that I will be happy with its light output. In all other respects the DLA-RS1 sure looks promising. The Epson TW-1000 is likely to be quite a bit brighter.

I feel fairly confident that the Epson will outperform the Panasonic, should be interesting to see how it holds up against the Mits. Epson should certainly have an edge in brightness and likely one in contrast/blacks as well. But I think the Mits is as razor sharp as it gets.

The brightness issue is an interesting one. When all of these pjs are calibrated, we end up with about the same lumen output. But some folks with the Panasonic AX100 have been using Normal mode which calibrated yielded over 1100 lumens I think. And they found this pq just as pleasing as the darker cinema modes.

I think if you're after the blackest blacks, you're going to be down there in the low lumen range. But I'd sacrifice a little bit of black floor for a punchier image. That's what I was hoping I could do with a higher lumen pj like the Epson.
jacksonian is offline  
post #113 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 09:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I am currently using the AX100 in Normal mode which is definitely brighter than the Cinema1 mode post-calibration. The nice thing about the AX100 is that it is very easy to calibrate. It has very good grey-scale tracking in both the Cinema1 and Normal modes (I did not calibrated the other modes). If the TW-1000 can put out 1000 lumens in its high lamp mode post-calibration, then this may be a more satisfying projector for my needs than the JVC DLA-RS1. I sure hope that there are some professional reviews of the TW-1000 available on-line in the next month or so.
Scott B is offline  
post #114 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 04:56 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
AnthonyP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 17,632
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


You're correct. And that still doesn't change how it works. Call a few Epson dealers or high end watch dealers or high end furniture dealers if you don't believe me.

I know you are right. I have dealt with Epson projectors in the past. I used to recommend them for our conference rooms at work because they had good product. You won't get as big a discount as some others. I just thought it was funny that Scott said

Quote:


I know Epson does not permit advertising prices below MSRP,

and your answer was

Quote:


You're apparently not familiar with MAP

when that was exactly what he discribed.

The issue is that MAPs exist to help keep prices stable.
to stop
"I can go to YYY and get it for $$$, beat that if you want my buisness."

if anyone can go in and get a quote for much less then go somewhere else to compare it defeats the purpose of a MAP
AnthonyP is offline  
post #115 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 05:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jacksonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 4,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's only funny because you snipped off the end of his quote
Quote:


however, I do not see how they can keep a dealer from selling below MSRP

jacksonian is offline  
post #116 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 05:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
But, how is Epson to find out if the dealer and buyer keep it private? I doubt that Epson is going to go and audit their dealers.
Scott B is offline  
post #117 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 05:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
AnthonyP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 17,632
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


But, how is Epson to find out if the dealer and buyer keep it private? I doubt that Epson is going to go and audit their dealers.

exactly
AnthonyP is offline  
post #118 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 06:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jacksonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Summerfield, NC
Posts: 4,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't think they do any routine auditing. But if you had to show your receipt for any warranty work, they could certainly flag your dealer that way. And they might even dispute that you made an authorized purchase. That's why they do stuff like charging you full price for the pj but discounting other stuff. I had a watch dealer in the Caribbean "adjust" the receipt that he gave me to make sure he didn't violate the MAP.

And regardless of your theories as to whether Epson *could* catch them, the bottom line is that the dealers aren't budging.
jacksonian is offline  
post #119 of 1603 Old 12-05-2006, 06:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
caesar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs
Posts: 4,352
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

I don't think they do any routine auditing. But if you had to show your receipt for any warranty work, they could certainly flag your dealer that way. And they might even dispute that you made an authorized purchase. That's why they do stuff like charging you full price for the pj but discounting other stuff. I had a watch dealer in the Caribbean "adjust" the receipt that he gave me to make sure he didn't violate the MAP.

And regardless of your theories as to whether Epson *could* catch them, the bottom line is that the dealers aren't budging.

Perhaps that is why Epson has so few dealers in the U.S, you can practically count them on one hand.

I recently emailed Epson corporate about providing me with a list of retail dealers in my area (the Philadelphia area) for the 810. I received a response that they contacted an Epson sales person with my request, and that I would hear from that person soon. It has been about a week since that email -- I have heard zippo.

The one Philadelphia area dealer I originally was referred to via the Epson website told me that they no longer carry Epson. When I asked why, I was told that I was the first person to ask for an Epson projector in their memory.

Keep in mind that this means that Epson has ZERO presence for its home cinema projectors in the 4th largest market in the United States. That speaks volumes.

I get the feeling that Epson does not really want much of a U.S. presence for its home cinema projector market. Having worked in large corporations, its probably a function of the U.S. division managers focusing on other products (like printers).

Why that is, is probably due to corporate inertia, or lack of imagination. Someone probably sold some Epson managers on the fact that Americans like plasmas and LCD TVs, so don't focus on that market for projectors.

So they keep prices high and dealers low. Then when sales, of course, are low, and profits for the miniscule U.S. projector market create a big yawn at the quarterly meetings, they continue to do little about the market.

Just my hunch.
caesar1 is offline  
post #120 of 1603 Old 12-06-2006, 05:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
vigga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I remember last year I spoke with a few people higher up at Epson regarding the launch of the 550 and 800. It was Epson's intent to make these two projectors their large inroads into home theater in the US. There was a large marketing push to get information on the product in the market place and an attempt to reach a new segment of users than had been tapped before.
Obviously I'm not sure what happened with that initiative - but I think it's clear that the typical AVS Forum member was not their target audience. I kept a very close watch on the 550 last year and kept coming back to the same question - was the Cinema 550 work in the neighborhood of $700 more (~%30) than the street price for the Panasonic 900. No matter what the argument the answer was always no. So, I saved that $700 and put it somewhere else.
I believe that Epson looks at the home theater market much the same way that Runco does - they want to, and do, deal with local installers and are the first company to provide moderatly priced projector options for people looking to install theaters through CEDIA type outfits. Is that a bad thing? No. They provide a top notch product and sell it through a channel that allows both the dealers and themselves to maintain margins on their products. Epson is most certainly not the only company to keep a tight leash on the product prices - it just allows them to dictate who's selling them. While it might not be idea for all of us AVS Forum members - we must understand that they simply - in the US anyway - aren't interested in selling anything to us. There are plenty of other projector companies making kick-ass products. As for the whole HDMI 1.3 thing - there are several other threads debating the merrits of having this on a display given the current (and forseable futue) state of content.
Time will tell.
vigga is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off