Epson EMP-TW1000 1080p LCD HDMI1.3 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1603 Old 10-10-2006, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally, Epson's own 1080p LCD:

http://www.epson.jp/products/dreamio...00/tw10003.htm

1200 lumens
12000:1 CR with auto-iris
2.1x zoom range
100" min at 3m max at 6.3m
Vshift 96%, Hshift 47%
26db

price "expected" 350,000 YEN.
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post #2 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 12:15 AM
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"price "expected" 350,000 YEN."

Must be a mistake - that's only $2926. Less than the 810's IIRC.

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post #3 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 05:05 AM
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Too bad about the low spec'd lumens. This would appear to be a less bright projector than Epson's cureent 720P offerings. I will never understand why manufacturers seem to believe that 1080P projectors only need wimpy light output when the high resolution would be most beneficial on really big screens.
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post #4 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 05:21 AM
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True lumen and spec lumen are not the same.
Previous Epson projectors could be used with settings provided a little less than 1000 lumen. If the new prjector can be used with settings providing 1000+ lumen we have a brighter display.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #5 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 08:00 AM
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Mattias, as a previous Epson owner I agree that Epson's specs are more conservative than most, however, as with most manufacturers once calibrated to D65, the lumens drop considerably. If the TW1000 is capable of 1000 lumens at D65 I would be very surprised and would definitely be putting this on my to consider list.
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post #6 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 08:32 AM
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From engadget:

Epson just unleashed a new 3LCD projector in Japan under the EMP-TW1000 guise. Most notable is the ability to blast a Full HD (1080p) 1920x1080 resolution image across that 2.1x optical manual zoom lens and the inclusion of HDMI 1.3 to pump pixels at up to 340Mpixels/sec in support of 48-bit color depth and lossless audio streams. The TW1000 throws a maximum contrast ratio of 12,000:1 in a room of total darkness (read: not your home theater) off a 1200 lumen lamp while operating within 26dB worth of noise. The TW1000 should retail for around ¥350,000 or about $2,927 when these go on sale in Japan this December. No world on relese for the rest of world but they should ship closer to home under the same PowerLite branding we're already familiar with. A picture of the backside ports after the break.
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post #7 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B View Post

I will never understand why manufacturers seem to believe that 1080P projectors only need wimpy light output when the high resolution would be most beneficial on really big screens.

I agree - larger screens are the ideal application for 1080P projectors. I can only imagine that having 1080P with high lumen output gets too close to the territory of commerical megabuck projectors - or at least encroach on much higher priced offerings coming down the pike.

That said, there's such a screaming need for it you know some maverick company will come out with an affordable 1080p higher lumen projector. But I guess for now we have the Optoma.
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post #8 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 08:50 AM
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Crystal Clear Fine!!!
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post #9 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 09:56 AM
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When I read this news release I was at first concerned that I had made a mistake buying the Panasonic AX100. After I saw the wimpy light output of this projector my decision to wait another year for 1080p is still justified.
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post #10 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 12:59 PM
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I am actually quite excited about this projector, it is just that I was hoping that Epson would distinguish themselves from their competition but offering a bright projector. A spec of 1200 lumens suggests that they have taken a step backwards from their recent offerings. Perhaps the 1200 lumens will not be far off upon calibration at D65, however, I doubt it given the choice of lamp.
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post #11 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 01:08 PM
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contrast and lumens is higher then competing 1080p lcd projectors. Looks to be more flexible (horizontal shift a lot larger), and people wanting to wait for hdmi 1.3 will be happy.

sounds good to me.
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post #12 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 01:38 PM
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This is great news, not for me buying a 1080p projector right now, but for the drop in prices of 1080p projectors. This should help put pressure on prices, then in a year or so we may see some rather cheap 1080p projectors.
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post #13 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 02:10 PM
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The quoted price sounds low to me but if it actually
does materialize at <$3k I would see this as a significant
development in the 1080p LCD wars. C2 Fine, 1080p
and the flexibility and traditional reliability of Epson
(let's hope) for under $3k would have been big news
two months ago. This just goes to show how the
AX100 and the other new high lumen pj's have
thrown a wrench into this forum.

Brian
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post #14 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 02:57 PM
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I think that the price is misquoted as well. The EMP-TW1000 is the same as the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080, which is expected to come in at under $5k if the guys at CEDIA are to be believed. Of course, once it's on the streets, it should be a lot cheaper, but 1080p still shouldn't be under $3,000 until this time next year at the earliest.

Of course, I'd be excited if the quoted price was true.
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post #15 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 05:35 PM
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Epsons generally don't street for much less than the
MSRP. However, the release of the last generation
had very different pricing in North America vs Europe
on release.

Epson just released the 810 with
panels that are said to be D5+. It has a MSRP
of $2999 (or $5999 with HQV). This is a 720p
projector with 1600 lumens and a 2.1x zoom lens.
This doesn't seem to leave much room for a $3k
1080p projector with C2Fine but I guess we will see.
On the positive side, the Epson 400 is much more aggressively
priced than other recent Epsons.

Brian
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post #16 of 1603 Old 10-11-2006, 08:27 PM
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http://www.epson.jp/osirase/2006/061011.htm

EMP-TW1000 (1080p D6 panel) for 350,000 yen
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...011/epson1.htm

EMP-TW700 (720p D5 panel) for 200,000 yen
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...011/epson2.htm

IMHO 2,927 bucks street price would make perfect sense. Or it might be reasonable to "guess" that production costs of D5 / D6 panels could be somewhat close to each other. Also consider the average price tag of each certification-in-progress HDMI 1.3 receiver would not add a premium to churn out a new model for the holiday season.

Maybe simply multiply 200,000 yen by 1.75 and we get 350,000 yen. That essentially means 1080p model does not cost 2X as much as 720p little brother. So shell out the extra cash (plus sales tax) and here comes the 100" FULL HD glory, baby. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

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post #17 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 04:59 AM
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It appears that Silicon Image has yet to start production of HDMI 1.3 receivers so how can the Epson have it?
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post #18 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

It appears that Silicon Image has yet to start production of HDMI 1.3 receivers so how can the Epson have it?

well the Japanese site has a foot note saying "in the process obtaining certification"..

in any case this 1.3 thing is really more for marketing I think. No real benefit as far as a PJ is concerned.

As to the specs, 1 month ago this would have be breaking news First "affordable" 1080p FP, with a huge lens shift and zoom range.
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post #19 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c722 View Post

As to the specs, 1 month ago this would have be breaking news First "affordable" 1080p FP, with a huge lens shift and zoom range.

It should still be breaking news given that after all the announcements we're still without any affordable 1080P projectors other than the Pearl.
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post #20 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 09:17 AM
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Clearly, this Epson TW1000, the Panasonic AE1000 and the Mitsubishi HC5000 are all going to be fighting it out and will all likely be far more similar than different. All three are also going to be duking it out with the Sony Pearl. It seems like each of the three LCD offerings has given us one or two little things to make them different and stand out just a wee bit from the others:

The Mitsubishi has power zoom, focus and lens shift and is also the quietest at only 19 dB in low lamp mode. It also has the Reon-VX video processor.

The Panasonic has a new 1080p version of SmoothScreen and a larger zoom range than the Mitsu.

The Epson appears to have the largest lens shift range and is also spec'd to be the brightest of the three although it's just a spec and they go 1000 lumens, 1100 lumens and 1200 lumens for the Mitsu, Panny and Epson respectively - so in reality, they're likely all rather close in real light output. This Epson is clearly spec'd as being the loudest though, so that's a wee bit disappointing.

I find it interesting that the Epson may have the lowest MSRP of the three since this has traditionally not been the case. Then again, it appears that it has manual focus, zoom and lens shift (as does the Panny) and there's no word on what video processor is being used (the Panny's is an in house solution).

So out of the three, the Mitsubishi ends up looking like the slightly "higher end" version simply due to power controls and the higher quality video processor. Given that the Mitsu can be found in Japan for under $3000 US it makes sense that the Panny and Epson are going to have to be even less expensive!

Amazing times really for 1080p front projection. I never would have thought this would be where prices would be already! Clearly though, there's no low cost solution yet for a really bright 1080p projector. The Mitsu, Panny, Epson and Pearl are all in the 900-1200 spec lumen range. I'm also really eager to see what kind of on/off contrast and ANSI contrast these LCD projectors can produce. The Pearl has amazing on/off contrast, but its ANSI contrast seems a bit low when compared to the DLP competition. If LCD is the same way (and it likely will be) then DLP still has one clear advantage. Frankly though, DLP needs it! At the moment all 1080p DLP projectors are considerably more expensive and tend to be far less flexible in terms of placement options. No lens shift at all on the HD81 and for the rest, vertical lens shift seems common, but no horizontal lens shift and rather small 1.2 or 1.3:1 zoom ranges seem to be the norm.

So plenty of room for improvement all around in next year's models. But overall, I'm simply blown away by what we're seeing this year and especially the prices!

Jon
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post #21 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 10:23 AM
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Now the questions are:

1. Which 1080p LCD will be the cheapest?

2. Which of these will work with a Panamorph U80 VC lens (v.stretch & 1.7+ throw ratio)?
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post #22 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 11:52 AM
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I'd be very surprised if the price is any higher at all than the quoted number. The Pearl's features, the Mitsu's features, etc... If the Epson is above $3K, it's stillborn in the marketplace.

For that price, however, it seems to represent a good value. Bring it on.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #23 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Teller View Post

This Epson is clearly spec'd as being the loudest though, so that's a wee bit disappointing.


Jon

26dbs is loud!

My new favorite game is Save The Titanic

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post #24 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like all the LCD 1080ps are <3k. ( There are already Japanese sites quoting the Mits and the Panny <3k. ) So again LCD is the undisbuted "budget" king. Nice to see the prices dropping that fast even before launch

With all of them <3k, the only advantage of Epson seems to be the greater placement flexbility.
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post #25 of 1603 Old 10-12-2006, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiler View Post

Epsons generally don't street for much less than the
MSRP.

They do in Japan. So I'm wondering if the price quoted in the article is MSRP (if there is any) or the expected street pricing.
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post #26 of 1603 Old 10-13-2006, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktak View Post

They do in Japan. So I'm wondering if the price quoted in the article is MSRP (if there is any) or the expected street pricing.

Interesting. This just shows how easy it is to be North American cerntric.
Over here, Epson has very tight distribution.

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post #27 of 1603 Old 10-13-2006, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c722 View Post

Looks like all the LCD 1080ps are <3k. ( There are already Japanese sites quoting the Mits and the Panny <3k. ) So again LCD is the undisbuted "budget" king. Nice to see the prices dropping that fast even before launch .

Where did you find prices <3k for the Pana and Mitsubishi?
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post #28 of 1603 Old 10-13-2006, 08:04 PM
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He says they are priced that low in japan. You can use some of the japanese price watch type engines to find street prices in Japan. Even the HC5000 is showing surprisingly low price quotes in Japan (although it is not available yet.)
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post #29 of 1603 Old 10-13-2006, 10:11 PM
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In another thread a MSRP of $5999 was reported for the panny at a showing of the prototype. Given where the Pearl and Mitsubishi are, that seems unrealistically high.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736222
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post #30 of 1603 Old 10-16-2006, 10:07 PM
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This is especially interesting since in the past Epson has put some clear space between it and the other 3LCD makers by pricing itself in the premium segment. Even if the US MSRP is 1K higher, they're still the cheapest MSRP out of the 1st batch of 1080p 3LCDs. Maybe Epson decided not to sit this round out?
If by some miracle it really MSRP'd (or even hit street) for $2995 in the US (not holding my breath) it would clean up. Epson has made good projectors in the past they were just too expensive for what they offered. In the 1080p ballgame they would really shake things up with pricing this aggressive.
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