Pearl Video Processing - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 72 Old 04-02-2007, 03:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dazzerxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Well, obviously folks are seeing some different things. It might be useful to identify why (such as how the "HD Mediabox" connects to the Pearl, etc...).

Here, with permission, is Kevin Collins' PM to me. Notice that he and Stacy Spears are in agreement:

I can only comment on what I see with HD DVD and that's judder @ 1080i/60 via HDMI. I'm also sesnsetive to judder because much of my collection is 2:2. Putting the Lumagen between and using 1080/48 (HDMI) removes the judder on HD DVD.

Dazzer
dazzerxxx is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 72 Old 04-02-2007, 03:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dazzerxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Notice that he and Stacy Spears are in agreement:


"I asked Stacey Spears how the Pearl could do this and that the Marantz with the Gennum processor couldn't do it! He also agreed that the Pearl can do this by detecting if the source is 24FPS and then simply outputting 2:2:2 instead of 2:2:3"

Is Stacey agreeing that he has witnessed the Pearl doing this or is he explaining how it could do this ?

Dazzer
dazzerxxx is offline  
post #63 of 72 Old 04-03-2007, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
scaesare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 4,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

"I asked Stacey Spears how the Pearl could do this and that the Marantz with the Gennum processor couldn't do it! He also agreed that the Pearl can do this by detecting if the source is 24FPS and then simply outputting 2:2:2 instead of 2:2:3"

Is Stacey agreeing that he has witnessed the Pearl doing this or is he explaining how it could do this ?

Dazzer

He very well could be.

For those who feel they can tell one way or the other if their Pearl is performing reverse-IVTC and displaying at 96Hz, can you report back:

1) Your "DDE"* settting on the Pearl. (A horribly named setting, I might add)

2) What source you are using

3) What connection method (i.e.- HDMI, component, etc...)

* The manual's description of DDE (Dynamic Detail Enhancer): When in "Film" mode, the PJ will IVTC film-based 2:3 material, and fall back to progressive mode for non 2:3 material. DDE "Off" is supposed to "Play back interlaced material unconverted."


While I'm not convinced one way or the other, here's my setup:

DDE: "Film"

Source: HD-A2 thru a Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi AVR set to passthru (aka "Pure")

Connection: HDMI

-Steve
scaesare is offline  
post #64 of 72 Old 04-03-2007, 07:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Erik Garci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 4,770
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

Who said they were ? This was in response to the question in the OP below. There is more to video processing quality than 3:2.

I thought someone might infer that those scenes could be used to test 2-3 judder. So I was just pointing out that they should not be used in that way.

Futhermore, I suspect that the artifacts in those scenes are the result of poor mastering and/or encoding. In other words, they are in the source image itself, and it might not be possible to eliminate them via processing.

I agree that there is more to video processing than 2-3 judder.
Erik Garci is offline  
post #65 of 72 Old 04-03-2007, 08:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dazzerxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

I thought someone might infer that those scenes could be used to test 2-3 judder. So I was just pointing out that they should not be used in that way.

Futhermore, I suspect that the artifacts in those scenes are the result of poor mastering and/or encoding. In other words, they are in the source image itself, and it might not be possible to eliminate them via processing.

I agree that there is more to video processing than 2-3 judder.

Hi Erik

No problem.

I'm just watching MI3 HD DVD with the DHL Van - Vatican wall scene (1080i/60) and there is no moire as I've seen with the Pearl. This is not a result of poor mastering and /or encoding.

If fact at a recent meet attended by several forum members we used this scene as a test of video processing capability. They will confrim that this artefact is not visible on all displays but it is on the Pearl.

Dazzer
dazzerxxx is offline  
post #66 of 72 Old 04-03-2007, 09:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Erik Garci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 4,770
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
How would it be possible for the Pearl (or any display) to automatically and seamlessly remove 2-3 judder?

Let's consider a hypothetical example. Let's suppose you are watching a movie (shot at 24 Hz) on a TV channel (broadcasting at 60Hz). Hypothetically, your display is not showing 2-3 judder at 60 Hz refresh, but rather showing 4-4 judder at 96 Hz refresh. Then, all of a sudden, the TV channel shows a weather ticker along the bottom that crawls horizontally at 60Hz. What does the display do at this point? Does the display stay at 96Hz refresh, so the movie still has 4-4 judder, but the ticker is not smooth? Or does the display switch to 60Hz refresh, so that the ticker is smooth, but the movie reverts to having 2-3 judder? Does the switch to 60 Hz happen automatically and seamlessly, with no noticeable glitches from one frame to the next? When the ticker eventually goes away, does it switch back to 96 Hz? Or perhaps, instead of 96 Hz, the display always refreshes at 120 Hz (which is a multiple of both 24 Hz and 60 Hz), so the display would not have to switch.

In my experience, the Pearl does none of the above. When I feed it a 60 Hz signal, it refreshes at 60Hz, even when the signal has 2-3 pulldown.
Erik Garci is offline  
post #67 of 72 Old 04-03-2007, 02:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dazzerxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Maybe some displays detect it as an artifact and eliminate it. ?

Isn't this thread about the Pearl's video processing capablity ? If it were a source artifact that can be eliminated by video processing and the Pearl doesn't eliminate it you still have the same answer.

Dazzer
dazzerxxx is offline  
post #68 of 72 Old 04-03-2007, 03:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dazzerxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Nope, sorry. I'm reading threads like this to decide if the Pearl is good enough or to wait for the Pearl replacement announcement at CEDIA.

If it's in the source, then the Pearl is being faithful to the source is all I was pointing out. Artifacts which truly are artifacts such as 3:2(an artifact which is added to the output which theoretically can be removed to regain the source, an exception would be if your player added CUE), feathering from 1080i to 1080p, those aren't part of the source. What happens when a processor detects wrongly? Let's say a source has bad macro-blocking. In that case you might like a de-macroblocking algorithm, but what happens when that "macro-blocking" is really just film grain? You've now affectively reduced resolution and took away something the director had there intentionally. A perfect video processor would take the source, process what's there and output exactly the way it was stored.

If it's the source then it would show in the 1080p signal given the source is stored in 24 progressive frames. The artefact appears when the Pearl de-interlaces a 1080i/60 signal.

If you want to believe this is the result of the Pearl being faithful to source then knock yourself out but I'll pass. I'm simply providing feedback on my experience of the Pearl.

Dazzer
dazzerxxx is offline  
post #69 of 72 Old 04-03-2007, 08:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Li On's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 4,182
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Guys, can we drop this? Pearl does NOT do IVTC for a 2/2 multiple panel display. Pearl does IVTC and outputs at 60Hz with the usual 2/3 repeat sequence. I proved the case with a 1080i IVTC TS test pattern clip running 1080i and 1080p HDMI to the Pearl with the same playback behavior. Check my earlier post in this thread or my other Pearl thread.

regards,

Li On
Li On is offline  
post #70 of 72 Old 04-04-2007, 12:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dazzerxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

Guys, can we drop this? Pearl does NOT do IVTC for a 2/2 multiple panel display. Pearl does IVTC and outputs at 60Hz with the usual 2/3 repeat sequence. I proved the case with a 1080i IVTC TS test pattern clip running 1080i and 1080p HDMI to the Pearl with the same playback behavior. Check my earlier post in this thread or my other Pearl thread.

regards,

Li On


Li On

We are both confirming the same findings I think regarding the removal of 3:2 induced judder i.e. the Pearl doesn't. That still leaves questions about other aspects of the Pearl's video such as deinterlacing artefacts with 1080i HD source material.

Dazzer
dazzerxxx is offline  
post #71 of 72 Old 04-04-2007, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
scaesare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 4,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

Guys, can we drop this? Pearl does NOT do IVTC for a 2/2 multiple panel display. Pearl does IVTC and outputs at 60Hz with the usual 2/3 repeat sequence. I proved the case with a 1080i IVTC TS test pattern clip running 1080i and 1080p HDMI to the Pearl with the same playback behavior. Check my earlier post in this thread or my other Pearl thread.

regards,

Li On

Li On-

With all due respect, you will also see that after your post I asked:

"Well, obviously folks are seeing some different things. It might be useful to identify why (such as how the "HD Mediabox" connects to the Pearl, etc...).


So while I respect your having tested things, Kevin Collin's opinion differs from yours, hence I was hoping you could identifiy some details of your test. Here you identified it was a HDMI connection. How about your DDE settings?

-Steve
scaesare is offline  
post #72 of 72 Old 04-04-2007, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
scaesare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 4,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
That post from Amir is actually what prompted me to PM him, and he in turn put me in touch with Kevin.

-Steve
scaesare is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off