3-panel owners: how many want a processor that can adjust for RGB misconvergence? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: 3-panel owners: how many want a processor that can adjust for RGB misconvergence?
Yes, this is an important feature to me 60 89.55%
No, this is not an important feature to me 7 10.45%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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If one of the best (affordable) video processors out there had a feature to allow RGB misconvergence adjustments for 1, maybe 2 pixels in horizontal and vertical directions, how many of you would strongly consider purchasing that VP because of this feature?
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post #2 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 02:09 PM
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I posted in the other thread as well, but I will be deleting my post there since it's redudant.

In short, yes, I am very interested in this. It would also be cool if the panels could be digitally "rotated".

Any idea of the MSRP of the processor you mentioned in the other thread if it includes this feature?
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post #3 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

Any idea of the MSRP of the processor you mentioned in the other thread if it includes this feature?

MSRP is slated at $3500. AVS is a dealer for this product line.
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post #4 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 02:30 PM
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sounds like a great feature, which product will support this?

Dustin
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post #5 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 02:55 PM
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The problem is that often apparent misalignment is really just chromatic aberration created by a less-than-perfect lens. When this occurs the misalignment is non-linear and an across-the-board adjustment wouldn't help. You'd end up with the pixels aligned at one part of the screen but with the misalignment worse on another area. About the best you could hope for would be to have the pixels aligned at the center of the screen.

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post #6 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 04:17 PM
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I'd be interested in cheap digital only (HDMI, DVI inputs/outputs only) videoprocessor for better ITVC to 24/48fps and with MC correction. I defenitely wouldn't pay almost price of the 2nd projector for it: it not that bad with my Pearl. So answer: for this price - no
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post #7 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 04:22 PM
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Lumagen or DVDO? What have you heard?
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post #8 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyN View Post

Lumagen or DVDO? What have you heard?

I made the request and they said they would consider doing it. If there is enough popular demand I'm pretty sure they'll do it.

At first I was going to mention the manufacturer but then decided against it since I don't want to be the one who puts them in an uncomfortable position. I think it's less disruptive if one person says X people want this feature vs. X people emailing them for it.
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post #9 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The problem is that often apparent misalignment is really just chromatic aberration created by a less-than-perfect lens. When this occurs the misalignment is non-linear and an across-the-board adjustment wouldn't help. You'd end up with the pixels aligned at one part of the screen but with the misalignment worse on another area. About the best you could hope for would be to have the pixels aligned at the center of the screen.

My MC is uniform across the screen. And I guess most people who answer "Yes" would fall into that category. But being able to get the RGB pixels aligned in the center is better than no solution at all, IMO.
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post #10 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 06:28 PM
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I would rather see the problem fixed at the source rather than try to kludge it via a processor.
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post #11 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

I would rather see the problem fixed at the source rather than try to kludge it via a processor.

That's a nice thought....
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post #12 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 09:37 PM
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If they can offer full digital panel rotation, and maybe even some sort of partial pixel adjustment (if such a thing is even possible), I think this product would be in high demand, especially since it's one feature of an otherwise excellent VP. The ability to perfectly converge an LCD or LCOS projector that does not have digital convergence built in would be a fantastic thing, in my opinion. I would probably buy the processor for this feature alone.
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post #13 of 42 Old 11-09-2006, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

If they can offer full digital panel rotation, and maybe even some sort of partial pixel adjustment (if such a thing is even possible), I think this product would be in high demand, especially since it's one feature of an otherwise excellent VP. The ability to perfectly converge an LCD or LCOS projector that does not have digital convergence built in would be a fantastic thing, in my opinion. I would probably buy the processor for this feature alone.

Check out the e-warp feature on the Realta HQV. It's pretty powerful, but I don't think it allows separate RGB adjustments. I would think that it would be easy for them to add though.
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post #14 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 06:42 AM
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No electronic system is going to be able to compensate or adjust in less than one pixel increments...period. But, being able to do a full pixel shift by color in zones would be a benefit where the global, full pixel shift capabilities now offered don't solve the problem.

Physical convergence/panel alignment capability in HT projectors is just not going to happen, for a variety of technical reasons, some of which I've touched on in previous posts. MC is less a function of panel alignment and more a function of aberrations in the optical system that cause MC in specific areas. There is no physical way to adjust this out.

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post #15 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 08:15 AM
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Yeah, a way to adjust for convergence in say 25 zones like on a crt front projector would be da bomb. This should allow you do dial out any chromatic aberration caused by the lens as well as make up for any physical panel mis-alignment that might exists, right?
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post #16 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 12:24 PM
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pclausen,

No, not right...you can only shift image data electronically a full pixel...so you can really only compensate for pixel errors greater than 1 pixel. Pixel MC less than one pixel cannot be improved, only moved to another location, but with the same error.

CRT projectors had no fixed pixel structure and the scan lines could be adjusted to fall anywhere that was necessary to get accurate registration between colors.

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post #17 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 12:32 PM
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Tom,

"Pixel MC less than one pixel cannot be improved"

Even less then one pixel might be able to be improved somewhat though. Say red was 3/4 of a pixel off to the right. You electronically shift red a full pixel to the left. Now your red convergence is off 1/4 of a pixel to the left. Not perfect but improved.

Shawn
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post #18 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 12:45 PM
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In case Lumagen is paying attention to this, I want to be on record saying that I would be interested even if we only had 1 pixel vertical and horizontal movement. That would fix about 90% of the problem on my Pearl.

2 pixel is better than 1 pixel. 3 is better still.

Of course, if I'm going to pay 3K for a VP, it's other features had better be downright impressive as well.

I'd be willing to pay several hundred bucks for a little black box that just fixes convergence. There's your killer app.
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post #19 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 12:51 PM
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Shawn,

What you say is correct, tho at some point you have to revert to not shifting to the left, if you're not doing a global shift...two different source pixels will end up being mapped to the same pixel at that point...the result of which is certainly an artifact of some sort. It's something to consider.

Tom Stites
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post #20 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

Shawn,

What you say is correct, tho at some point you have to revert to not shifting to the left, if you're not doing a global shift...two different source pixels will end up being mapped to the same pixel at that point...the result of which is certainly an artifact of some sort. It's something to consider.

But what he says is accurate as long as you're sliding the entire panel to the left, correct?
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post #21 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 03:54 PM
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Is there currently software available on a HTPC to do this shifting? Sounds like it should be possible?

o AE100->TW100->AE300->HS10->AE500->AX100->TW700->TW3000->TW8000
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post #22 of 42 Old 11-10-2006, 05:13 PM
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The problem with "mis-convergence" is it's caused by two things: linear panel shift and non-linear CA at the edges caused by the lens. The first is easy to fix, the second, less easy - even though the latter can easily cause as much or more shift than the former.

Even simple digital linear RGB would be a big plus, and is so easy to implement that I don't know why projector manufacturers haven't implemented it - perhaps they're afraid of admitting to or drawing attention to the fact of panel misconvergence.
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post #23 of 42 Old 11-16-2006, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone else interested in weighing in?
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post #24 of 42 Old 11-17-2006, 05:43 AM
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Am I reading this correctly, that this feature would compensate for the softness found in 3 chip projectors, without adding artifacts, essentially bringing the sharpness to the level of single chip DLP? If so, I am definately interested.

Phil
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post #25 of 42 Old 11-17-2006, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

Tom,

"Pixel MC less than one pixel cannot be improved"

Even less then one pixel might be able to be improved somewhat though. Say red was 3/4 of a pixel off to the right. You electronically shift red a full pixel to the left. Now your red convergence is off 1/4 of a pixel to the left. Not perfect but improved.

Shawn

This is perposturous... I cant live with a 1919 x 1080 display

seriously though maximum 1/2 pixel error is the best that can be gaurenteed. But some could have greater benefits like in the scenario above.
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post #26 of 42 Old 11-17-2006, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Am I reading this correctly, that this feature would compensate for the softness found in 3 chip projectors, without adding artifacts, essentially bringing the sharpness to the level of single chip DLP? If so, I am definately interested.

The best measure I've seen of sharpenss is MTF, which is effected by lots of different parameters. Better convergence will improve sharpness, yes. But even a perfectly converged LCOS device is likely to have a lower MTF than a single-chip DLP.
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post #27 of 42 Old 11-17-2006, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Siener View Post

Anyone else interested in weighing in?

I've already weighed in. But, as the baby in Dinosaurs says, "I WANT DAT!"
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post #28 of 42 Old 11-17-2006, 06:49 AM
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Beyond MC correction there is potentially a huge market for electronic CA correction because the optics can be made less expensive. The question is whether the price of the electronic correction can be lower than the cost of color corrected optics themselves as well as "preaberrated" display devices.

Shawn Kelly
Panamorph, Inc.
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post #29 of 42 Old 01-05-2007, 08:29 AM
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Just FYI - I have been waiting since reading this thread in november to be able to announce this.

We announced our new 'Geo' chip today. It can do independant image warping for each of the 3 RGB color channels, effectively giving you digital convergence correction and digital chromatic aberration correction to a surprisingly accurate degree.

Our image warping technology is based on cubic (curved) line equations allowing any type of distortion (barrel, pincushion, spherical, etc) to be accurately corrected.


Here is the press release:

http://www.siliconoptix.com/chipProd...43DC5EE5BEC3D4

Let me know if you have any questions!

Thanks,

Andy K.
ASIC Design Engineer
Silicon Optix, Inc.
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post #30 of 42 Old 01-05-2007, 09:55 AM
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Andy,

Will you be demoing this at CES and, if so, where?

Shawn Kelly
Panamorph, Inc.
www.panamorph.com
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