JVC DLA-RS1 questions answered! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 3254 Old 11-20-2006, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

Best Judas ever.

That's also what his girlfriend at the time said

Okay on to more savory discussion lol....

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Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

but the fleshtones looked good. Hard to say. Would love to see it again w/ a fresh pair of eyes

Yup I'd like to see it again especially without a blueish projector sitting next to it. Yet another reason to attend CES
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post #272 of 3254 Old 11-20-2006, 07:08 PM
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Well, seems like we've entered the silly period; not unexpected after all the high-powered info on the RS1 of the last 4-5 days. It has really been breath-taking. So we will tread water until the CES in Jan. Happily, I will be there, hopefully to see the production version of the RS1. In a few weeks we need to start bugging Tom Stites about the precise location of where the RS1 will be shown in Las Vegas.

With the BenQ W10000 info all out now--and eliminated as a possibility for me because of the long throw--the only thing that I can see that might compete with the RS1 (at least for my affections) is if Samsung/Joe Kane showed a 1080p version of the Sammy 710 that had a short throw and lens shift, and the fine PQ of the 710 (and without its bugs). Would be a nice surprise.
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post #273 of 3254 Old 11-20-2006, 07:52 PM
 
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Regarding the possible 2.35:1 CH vertical stretch. Will there be the ability to not only stretch but to horizontally squeeze for 1.85:, 1.75:1, and 1.33:1 with a CH setup.

thats a very interesting question. Even assuming that JVC adds the ability to use an anamorphic lens with the projector, will it have the ability to scale for all of the other aspect ratios without removing the lens. At the show went I spoke with the JVC guys, I asked them about the scaling option but it never occured to ask about this part of it
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post #274 of 3254 Old 11-20-2006, 08:16 PM
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Any reason why JVC did not use the Realta HQV processor already used in the HD10K, and instead has gone with Gennum?

Consume mass quantities
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post #275 of 3254 Old 11-20-2006, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP
Question: does the JVC DLA-RS1 accept 1080p VGA input from the Xbox 360?
(The Pearl doesn't... this may be a selling point for me).

From reading through various threads it seems that the RS1 will not be able to accept 1080p through the VGA input, bummer for Gamers like myself. I hope this is not the case. A selectable color-space option (PC levels or Video levels) for the inputs would be nice to.

"...I'm ready for dream-time Mr. B."
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post #276 of 3254 Old 11-20-2006, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevr2Big View Post

Any reason why JVC did not use the Realta HQV processor already used in the HD10K, and instead has gone with Gennum?

The Gennum is cheaper and from my reading easier to implement with roughly the same results. Better bottom line..

-kraig
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post #277 of 3254 Old 11-20-2006, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Even if the primaries are fixed, there is still plenty of adjustability to make sure the color tracking is fine and whites are at D65. The color primaries define the endpoints for a projector inside the CIE colorspace which in turn defines the gamut of colors that are available. It doesn't affect saturation only the extreme range (gamut) of colors that are available. Color management systems in a projector are fairly new and whats really most important is that the color primaries are wide enough to accurately represent Rec 709 (HD colorspace).

I haven't looked deeply into the color management scheme used on other projectors but I assume that they use a wide color gamut (wide color primaries) to begin with and then digitally process the input signal in such a way as to create virtual primaries that are narrower than the physical primaries that are optically determined in the projector. Once they've created this new virtual colorspace (which is a subset of the maximum colorspace), they can then shift it around inside of the original colorspace by manipulating the new end points (new primaries).

My understanding is that to properly dial in color to the target color space such as Rec 709, one needs control over the brightness, saturation, and hue for all six of the colors individually. It does not sound like the RS1 will offer this capability which is concerning. Greg raised similar issues with regards to the Pearl and its lack of such controls.
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post #278 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

My understanding is that to properly dial in color to the target color space such as Rec 709, one needs control over the brightness, saturation, and hue for all six of the colors individually. It does not sound like the RS1 will offer this capability which is concerning. Greg raised similar issues with regards to the Pearl and its lack of such controls.

I'm confused, by six colors do you mean the 3 primaries and 3 secondaries? Also, brightness (luminance) isn't really part of the CIE colorspace it's usually considered to be the Z dimension in the x,y CIE plane. There are many projectors that have excellent color reproduction like the HD10K that don't have a color management system so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I'm more worried about the quality and spread of the physical primaries which determines the full color gamut. I may be mistaken, but I don't think a color management system can correct for the physical primaries being suboptimal. Bottom line though I agree with you that a color management system would be nice.
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post #279 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 02:36 AM
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The forthcoming Lumagen RadianceXG video processor has primary color correction in its advertised feature set.

"Worth waiting for"
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post #280 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

I'm confused, by six colors do you mean the 3 primaries and 3 secondaries? Also, brightness (luminance) isn't really part of the CIE colorspace it's usually considered to be the Z dimension in the x,y CIE plane. There are many projectors that have excellent color reproduction like the HD10K that don't have a color management system so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I'm more worried about the quality and spread of the physical primaries which determines the full color gamut. I may be mistaken, but I don't think a color management system can correct for the physical primaries being suboptimal. Bottom line though I agree with you that a color management system would be nice.

Yes, I am referring to RGBCYM. I think its a given these days that just about every pj by default provides a color gamut that is quite a bit wider than Rec 709. So to account for this oversaturation, adjustments are necessary.

Here's Greg's quote from the Pearl review I am referring to:
"I hoped that the RCP function would
allow the primary colors to be set to the
Rec. 709 and Rec. 601 standards, but that
was not the case because it doesn't provide
independent brightness and saturation
adjustments for the colors.
Because the primary colors are more
saturated than the Rec. 601 or Rec. 709
standard, flesh tones occasionally appeared
too red. A good alternative to reducing the
Color saturation setting, which affects all
colors, is to lower the intensity of the red
primary slightly, using the RCP function."

I am hoping JVC provides us with real color management controls so that such things can be adjusted correctly. So even though the brightness does not fall on the CIE diagram, individual control over both the Brightness and Saturation are necessary to properly dial in the colors...
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post #281 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Yes, I am referring to RGBCYM. I think its a given these days that just about every pj by default provides a color gamut that is quite a bit wider than Rec 709. So to account for this oversaturation, adjustments are necessary.

I am hoping JVC provides us with real color management controls so that such things can be adjusted correctly. So even though the brightness does not fall on the CIE diagram, individual control over both the Brightness and Saturation are necessary to properly dial in the colors...

I think we're in agreement that we want to have accurate color on the RS1. Color management isn't going to be included though. Sony has always been known for a red push owing to an oversaturated red primary. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. Also, fwiw I'm not so sure that all projectors these days provide a color gamut wider than Rec. 709 (especially with green). I know Wm and others have posted the measured HD10K primaries for example and they were close.
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post #282 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

...Color management isn't going to be included though...

Right - and that is what I'd like to see JVC reconsider. Proper color is so critical I do not understand why they would omit the feature necessary to dial it in as desired. Because this feature is also missing from the Ruby and the Pearl, I'm wondering if this is much more difficult with LCoS than DLP. At any rate, I bring this up because I hope JVC will reconsider and add the necessary features.
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post #283 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 10:23 AM
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Just noticed in the Optoma HD81 review on Projector Central that the HD81 is spec'ed at 1400 lumens with a calibrated output of 655 lumens. It is called a very bright 1080p projector. It has been stated on this forum that the JVC has 700 calibrated lumens as indicated by JVC personnel. If that is true, then the JVC may be just as bright or brighter than the HD81. I currently have a DWIN TV3+ with advertised 1200 lumens. I use it at the long throw distance to a 110 inch wide .95 screen and am lucky if it has 600 calibrated lumens (new bulb), although I have never measured the actual lumen output. Does anyone on this thread know what the typical TV3+ calibrated lumen output is at long throw? I have the JVC on order with Jason. BTW- I have been happy with the brightness in my current setup (fully light controlled).
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post #284 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 10:31 AM
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Is there any information on how well the grayscale tracks on the RS1?

On my Ruby I was able to calibrate D65 with a dE from 0-3 from 10-100 IRE with still only 8 dE at 5 IRE. I'm hoping to be able to achieve similar results on the RS1 without things falling apart (relatively speaking) at 100 IRE or below 20 IRE as they do on many other displays.
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post #285 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrebo View Post

Just noticed in the Optoma HD81 review on Projector Central that the HD81 is spec'ed at 1400 lumens with a calibrated output of 655 lumens. It is called a very bright 1080p projector. It has been stated on this forum that the JVC has 700 calibrated lumens as indicated by JVC personnel. If that is true, then the JVC may be just as bright or brighter than the HD81. I currently have a DWIN TV3+ with advertised 1200 lumens. I use it at the long throw distance to a 110 inch wide .95 screen and am lucky if it has 600 calibrated lumens (new bulb), although I have never measured the actual lumen output. Does anyone on this thread know what the typical TV3+ calibrated lumen output is at long throw? I have the JVC on order with Jason. BTW- I have been happy with the brightness in my current setup (fully light controlled).

I would be very cautious about comparing brightness numbers from different sources. All the values I've seen from PJC, on all the pj's they've reviewed, have been lower than anyone elses; consistent, but lower. Guitarman, who works closely with Optoma, reported 950 calibrated lumens for the HD81, and one might expect that to be a bit high. This is another reason why Jason's reviews of BOTH of these pj's will be so useful, to have a direct comparison by the same reviewer. My guess is that the HD81 will come in somewhere between 700 and 950, and thus probably be ~150 lumens (at most) brighter than the RS1 (which is expected to come in somewhere between 700-800). So I agree with the sentiment of your post, namely that the HD81 is not all that much brighter than the RS1 (or the Pearl, for that matter).
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post #286 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrebo View Post

Just noticed in the Optoma HD81 review on Projector Central that the HD81 is spec'ed at 1400 lumens with a calibrated output of 655 lumens. It is called a very bright 1080p projector. It has been stated on this forum that the JVC has 700 calibrated lumens as indicated by JVC personnel. If that is true, then the JVC may be just as bright or brighter than the HD81.

The brightness of the JVC will surprise a lot of people who have misconceptions about true D65 lumens. It's been interesting to see how the forum comments about the RS1 have been changing over time as people start to recognize this point. Initially everyone was saying, "only 700 lumens?" and now people are starting to realize that this is actually pretty bright for a typical sized home theater. In fact as I've been saying all along, my biggest worry is that it's too bright on my 110" ST130.

EDIT: I see Millerwill and I were thinking along the same lines..
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post #287 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 11:23 AM
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I also think people might put a little too much emphasis on high ftl. I'm guessing there are a lot of users that are getting way less ftl then they think and they are quite happy with their picture.
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post #288 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

The brightness of the JVC will surprise a lot of people who have misconceptions about true D65 lumens. ....., my biggest worry is that it's too bright on my 110" ST130.

Mark, more along these lines: this will be my first FP (I'm on Jason's JVC list!], and coming from an RPTV, brightness has been a major concern. I've been influenced by many of Tryg's post ['there is no such thing as too bright''!), and am thus planning to shoot for ~40 ftL with the new lamp; i.e., a 119" to 126" diag HighPower. I've consoled myself that if this is too bright, I can use the low lamp mode. But am I overdoing it? IS there such a thing as 'too bright'?
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post #289 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 11:45 AM
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Miller-

Tryg is a high ftl cheerleader. Nothing wrong with that but there are some that prefer much lower ftl then that. You'll have to be your own judge but I think you'll be suprised how much lower you can go and still have an awsome picture.
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post #290 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

I also think people might put a little too much emphasis on high ftl. I'm guessing there are a lot of users that are getting way less ftl then they think and they are quite happy with their picture.


I agree.

As I recently posted elsewhere, I spent 6 hours with a Sony Qualia on a 133" screen, and the PQ was superb. I was very suprised when I was told we were only getting 7 ftl from the screen!
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post #291 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrebo View Post

Just noticed in the Optoma HD81 review on Projector Central that the HD81 is spec'ed at 1400 lumens with a calibrated output of 655 lumens. It is called a very bright 1080p projector. It has been stated on this forum that the JVC has 700 calibrated lumens as indicated by JVC personnel. If that is true, then the JVC may be just as bright or brighter than the HD81. I currently have a DWIN TV3+ with advertised 1200 lumens. I use it at the long throw distance to a 110 inch wide .95 screen and am lucky if it has 600 calibrated lumens (new bulb), although I have never measured the actual lumen output. Does anyone on this thread know what the typical TV3+ calibrated lumen output is at long throw? I have the JVC on order with Jason. BTW- I have been happy with the brightness in my current setup (fully light controlled).

I have the Dwin TV3 too. Unfortunately, there were never any quality professional reviews of this PJ that would tell us what the D65 calibrated lumens actually are. My guess, however, is that it is pretty low, and the JVC will be quite a bit brighter.....not to mention a near 10 fold increase in contrast!
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post #292 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I have the Dwin TV3 too. Unfortunately, there were never any quality professional reviews of this PJ that would tell us what the D65 calibrated lumens actually are. My guess, however, is that it is pretty low, and the JVC will be quite a bit brighter.....not to mention a near 10 fold increase in contrast!

With these responses and my own mathematical guesstimates as to lumens and ftl, I have convinced myself thaty the RS1 will be brighter than my current TV3 and come with significantly more CR. Just need to verify the RS1 calibrated lumens when that information becomes available. I look forward to my own RS1.
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post #293 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Mark, more along these lines: this will be my first FP (I'm on Jason's JVC list!], and coming from an RPTV, brightness has been a major concern. I've been influenced by many of Tryg's post ['there is no such thing as too bright''!), and am thus planning to shoot for ~40 ftL with the new lamp; i.e., a 119" to 126" diag HighPower. I've consoled myself that if this is too bright, I can use the low lamp mode. But am I overdoing it? IS there such a thing as 'too bright'?

Velvetpoet is dead on. Its a matter of personal preference and the environment of a persons HT (brightness of walls, ambient light, etc.). Some people like high gain screens some don't. You may want to do what I did which is to buy a high power and try it out for awhile (they are a bargain price as far as screens go). The High Power elevates the brightness quite a bit but it also elevates the black point (blacks become more grey). Even worse I found that the high ft-L on the HP increased overall ambient lighting in my HT which reduced the ANSI CR. You should also get screen samples and see what you like best. I have samples for an Ultrastar, ST130, Firehawk and Ultramatte and I eventually picked a ST130 and have been really happy with it although it's best suited for a well light controlled room (which mine is).
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post #294 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Mark, more along these lines: this will be my first FP (I'm on Jason's JVC list!], and coming from an RPTV, brightness has been a major concern. I've been influenced by many of Tryg's post ['there is no such thing as too bright''!), and am thus planning to shoot for ~40 ftL with the new lamp; i.e., a 119" to 126" diag HighPower. I've consoled myself that if this is too bright, I can use the low lamp mode. But am I overdoing it? IS there such a thing as 'too bright'?


You may not achieve your 40 ftL with the HighPower screen depending on your mounting position. There is a drop off in gain at different viewing angles. Not only side to side but for ceiling mounted PJ to your eyes (angle). Draw a picture of your theater from the side and compute the angle. The high power is nice but I don't like the brightness change with movement around the room, like getting up for a coke.

Also 40 ftL may lead to eye strain on such a large screen. I try to shoot for 25 ftL.

K
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post #295 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 12:22 PM
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Mark-
I was curious with your thoughts about using a high gain with the rs-1.

From your reports it sounded like even in the light controlled room contrast wasn't reaching its max because of the rope lighting. I kind of got the impression that it might be really hard to get the max contrast.

So I was thinking a high power will elevate the blacks and the whites but this might be the only way to achieve the max contrast in a lot of set ups.

What are your thoughts?

Also I'm not sure if you clarified this or not but was the unit being showed showing 10k or 15k contrast? You said more on this later and I might have missed your post.
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post #296 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

Mark-
I was curious with your thoughts about using a high gain with the rs-1.

From your reports it sounded like even in the light controlled room contrast wasn't reaching its max because of the rope lighting. I kind of got the impression that it might be really hard to get the max contrast.

Yup, 15000:1 will redefine the meaning of the term "light controlled" for most digital users. The setup at the Expo was about the best I've ever seen at a tradeshow, but it still wasn't nearly as good as what most people can achieve at home (as far as light control goes). Even stil though, I think most people will still be able to get to the black level floor with this projector on their home theaters if they squelch most of their light sources (LEDs, etc.).

Quote:


So I was thinking a high power will elevate the blacks and the whites but this might be the only way to achieve the max contrast in a lot of set ups.

Interesting idea, but I don't really agree unless a person has trouble squelching out all of the light sources in their HT. It's more than just on/off CR though, the RS1 is going to provide high ft-L on an average size screen (with average gain) and a big problem is going to be ANSI CR reduction from room reflections. Using a high power will make it even worse.

Quote:


Also I'm not sure if you clarified this or not but was the unit being showed showing 10k or 15k contrast? You said more on this later and I might have missed your post.

I didn't measure it but it definitely wasn't realizing it's maximum CR due to the rope lighting. Ignoring the rope lighting, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the prototype is yielding only 10000:1 right now because it is an early prototype and I don't think that the optical block has benefited from the latest improvements that resulted in the revised 15K:1 spec. This is just speculation though. JVC does seem very confident that the production units will be better although by how much and in what area is an open question.
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post #297 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 12:58 PM
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Thanks Mark =)
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post #298 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

The brightness of the JVC will surprise a lot of people who have misconceptions about true D65 lumens. It's been interesting to see how the forum comments about the RS1 have been changing over time as people start to recognize this point. Initially everyone was saying, "only 700 lumens?" and now people are starting to realize that this is actually pretty bright for a typical sized home theater. In fact as I've been saying all along, my biggest worry is that it's too bright on my 110" ST130.


As I prefer the lowest range of footlamberts (12-15) for film viewing, I only need around 500 D65 lumens. So I was worried as well that it might be too bright for my 106" w/1.0 gain. Glad to verify that it has a low-bulb setting. I'll definitely be using that setting - at least till the bulb ages.
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post #299 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

I also think people might put a little too much emphasis on high ftl. I'm guessing there are a lot of users that are getting way less ftl then they think and they are quite happy with their picture.

I completely agree. I for one really prefer a very bright and punchy picture. Recently I discovered that I was actually getting just 193 lumens from my Ruby and 7.5ftL. I was really surprised by this - would have guessed I was getting at least TWICE that.

If the JVC does turn out to deliver 700 lumens @ D65 regardless of throw, then this pj will certainly be the brightest one I have ever owned and will actually be a big step up in this regard - while at the same time also being a big step up in terms of on/off and ANSI CR.
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post #300 of 3254 Old 11-21-2006, 02:02 PM
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Mark, et al--thanks for the replies. Unlike probably most of you (I think), my room is not the ideal, 'bat cave' HT, but rather a small (13x17) den; I can exclude external light to a very large degree, but the walls/ceiling are off-white (though with lots of 'stuff' on the walls, pics, rugs, etc.). Also, my JVC will be set up on a stand just behind and above viewers (my wife and I, kids are grown), so will be ideal for the HP and its narrow viewing cone.

Velvetpoet's comment was especially interesting, for in my room, compromised by reflected light (that I hope the HP's narrow cone will help moderate), I will never realize the super CR that the JVC is capable of. [That's another question: should I just get the Mits 5000 since I'm not going to get great BL anyway?!] So the fact that the HP raises the BL may not really matter. And the fact that it also raises the WL, it may actually achieve a BETTER CR (this is my version of Tryg's argument).

But you are certainly right, I will just have to try the HP and see how I like it. I have seen one on several occasions [at Noah Katz' house, at Guitarman's house] and liked them on those occasions. All the choices, of course, is what makes all this so much fun!
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