JVC DLA-RS1 questions answered! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:14 PM
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AArrrggg Jason I saw your original post!!!!

I hope you get your hands on a unit soon!
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post #92 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:14 PM
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Crossing my fingers....
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post #93 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Thanks Mark - great work! Would you agree with the assessments of others that the RS1 looked just as sharp as the Sharp 20K? And, did anyone check to see if the Sharp was perfectly focused? Would you say the RS1 is significantly (i.e much more noticeably sharp) than the Ruby?

In the next part I'm going to talk about the comparisons to other machines, but as far as sharpness goes I didn't think the Sharp was sharper. I also didn't think that the Pearl was soft when I viewed it, but the RS1 does seem a little sharper. It's still a very subjective comparison because I didn't A/B test them at the same time. If this ends up being true (that the RS1 is sharper than the Pearl), this might be due to optics as much as panel differences.
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post #94 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:19 PM
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Truthfully, the Sharp is, well, a sharp projector. So if the RS1 holds true to being even equal to that, it will have a huge advantage to the competitors in similar technologies.
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post #95 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

I dunno... the diagram clearly shows it above the top of the screen... feet down. Is the diagram wrong?

Adding th this point, the JVC online specs clearly say +/- 80%. That indicates that the shift can be up or down without inverting the projector. Typo, maybe???

"I'm a fanatic without a cause and I believe in it!" - B. D. G.
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post #96 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Truthfully, the Sharp is, well, a sharp projector. So if the RS1 holds true to being even equal to that, it will have a huge advantage to the competitors in similar technologies.

Yeah, I was surprised at this too. I'm going to go more into it on part 3, but I expected the Sharp to throw the same image as the Marantz that I saw the day before, but it didn't. It wasn't as sharp and yeah I did take a look at the pixel grid and verified that it looked well focused. I also didn't notice much RBE with the Marantz (much less than I expected), but it was rainbow city with the Sharp. Anyone know why? They do use the same latest and greatest color wheel right? I can't imagine that there is a setting which would affect this. A much more likely explanation is the side by side reference with another image completely changes the viewing experience.
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post #97 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

In the next part ...

JVC RS1 review, the trilogy

Mark have you seen the Sony SXRD A2000 RPTV by any chance? Its razor sharp. Curious if the RS1 provides a similarly sharp look.
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post #98 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:28 PM
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I believe I am mistaken. Too many freaking specs to keep straight with everything I sell. I believe it can be upright as I am remembering a conversation I had with JVC at Cedia.
My apologies!
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post #99 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

JVC RS1 review, the trilogy

Mark have you seen the Sony SXRD A2000 RPTV by any chance? Its razor sharp. Curious if the RS1 provides a similarly sharp look.

RPTV? Umn, that's a display technology right? Seriously though, no I haven't seen it. JVC was also showing their new reference series RPTV's side by side with competitors and the JVC looked great, but I didn't spend much time with them because my time with the RS1 was so limited.
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post #100 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:43 PM
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The JVC RPTV 1080p units are amazing. And well priced compared to it's competitors. All in all I have always loved what they can do.
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post #101 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:44 PM
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Thanks Mark. I also look forward to hearing your thoughts about how the black level compares to the Ruby in your next write up.
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post #102 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Yeah, I was surprised at this too. I'm going to go more into it on part 3, but I expected the Sharp to throw the same image as the Marantz that I saw the day before, but it didn't. It wasn't as sharp and yeah I did take a look at the pixel grid and verified that it looked well focused. I also didn't notice much RBE with the Marantz (much less than I expected), but it was rainbow city with the Sharp. Anyone know why? They do use the same latest and greatest color wheel right? I can't imagine that there is a setting which would affect this. A much more likely explanation is the side by side reference with another image completely changes the viewing experience.

Hi Mark

Great review! thanks very much, been waiting all day. Marantz has a new 6x color wheel, the sharp still use the 5x speed.

Mike
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post #103 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:20 PM
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I thought I saw somewhere that the lens wasn't constant aperture. Constant aperture zoom lens are very big and very expensive. Tom (a truly great guy and a wealth of knowledge) does know better than I and if he says so, I believe him. Still I expect actual ANSI to be between 300 and 350. One of the reviewers stated that somewhere in one the AVS threads too. I think anywhere over 110"D will be dim. One can get used to dim, hell my CRT only lights up my 110"D at about 5.5 ft lamberts. and that is plenty bright for me in a totally light controlled black room.

A stacked pair at under $9K should be fantastic on a large screen.

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post #104 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:22 PM
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Tom did comment that the ANSI wasn't official yet since they aren't production units, but he did guesstimate in the 300-350:1 range as you said. Still, that is very good for this technology.
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post #105 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I thought I saw somewhere that the lens wasn't constant aperture. Constant aperture zoom lens are very big and very expensive. Tom (a truly great guy and a wealth of knowledge) does know better than I and if he says so, I believe him. Still I expect actual ANSI to be between 300 and 350. One of the reviewers stated that somewhere in one the AVS threads too. I think anywhere over 10D will be dim. One can get use to dim, hll my CRT only lights up my 10"D at about 5.5 ft lamberts. and that is plenty brightfor me in a totally light controlled black room.

A stacked pair at under $9K should be fantastic on a large screen.


5.5 ft lamberts on a 10" D ???
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post #106 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC6 View Post

Hi Mark

Great review! thanks very much, been waiting all day. Marantz has a new 6x color wheel, the sharp still use the 5x speed.

Mike

That explains it! Thanks for the info. The new color wheel makes a very big improvement in RBE. I also thought the Marantz was sharper looking. All in all, I thought the Marantz was very impressive indeed and a step up from the Sharp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Haflich View Post

I thought I saw somewhere that the lens wasn't constant aperture. Constant aperture zoom lens are very big and very expensive.

Yeah that was yet another surprise that JVC rolled out with the RS1. Tom said that it is constant aperture and it looks to be a quality Fujinon lens which makes a person wonder how the margins can work on such a low priced projector.

Also, just to reiterate 700 ANSI lumens with a new bulb, high brightness setting at D65. Which makes it a little brighter than the HD10K. ANSI CR 300-350:1 although as I mentioned I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being higher.
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post #107 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:36 PM
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I found in my testing that the Marantz is the best single chip 1080p unit, taking price considerations out of the picture.
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post #108 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Tom did comment that the ANSI wasn't official yet since they aren't production units, but he did guesstimate in the 300-350:1 range as you said. Still, that is very good for this technology.


Uh, I think Mark was talking about ANSI lumens, not contrast!?
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post #109 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:44 PM
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Crap. You are right. Well then I totally disagree with him but I will know soon.
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post #110 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:55 PM
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I recently measure the lumens of my Ruby and was SHOCKED to find I was getting only 193 with 525 hours on the bulb near max throw. I would have bet it was much higher than that because the picture looks super bright on my 106" Firehawk. And that works out to just 8.xftL. So I'm very comfortable that at least for this size screen the RS1 fits the bill perfectly as far as lumen output goes.
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post #111 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:56 PM
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Jason - Where are all the inputs on the RS1? I know you answered this before but I'm too lazy and tired to go hunt.

thanks,

-kraig
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post #112 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

5.5 ft lamberts on a 10" D ???

He means 10 feet.

FYI

feet = '
inches = "
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post #113 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

Several of us were standing there talking as the credits began to roll for U-571. Suddenly we looked over and were surprised to see how black the screen suddenly was. Reminded me of my CRT - where it's impossible to tell whether it's on or off. And many times I've left it on for a day or two, thinking it's off. Not just that - but when the credits appeared - it was shocking as they were brilliant white and looked to be very 3-D. They just popped out Very vivid and sharp, especially with that black background. The contrast between the white credits and black background was incredible. It actually looked eerie. The credits seemed to float in the air. (OK so I'm a credit freak)

Thanks for sharing this. That was a great read.

I believe this is attributable to the super high contrast without having to use a dynamic iris because the whites can still be fully bright at say at or near 100 IRE while the black is still at its deepest level (at least as deep as its ANSI CR will allow).

Now, whereas with the Ruby, you would not get this affect because the whites would be dimmer due to the iris being closed down considerably. Yes some of this is made up for to a certain extent by the dynamic gamma but there's only some much brightness you're going to get out of it with the iris closed partially.

Speaking of which - one point I haven't seen discussed is that I think that the lack of a DI on this pj will make it much brighter than the Ruby/Pearl. With Ruby/Pearl and say medium APL (which many scenes are) the iris is partially closed which keeps the brighter parts of the picture less bright than intended. With RS1 without the DI will be able to display those parts at max brightness which will make the overall image pop more. Do you guys agree with this line of thinking?
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post #114 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Setup:


Black level

I asked if I could check the black uniformity by blanking the video. The JVC rep (I believe it was Ken at the time) said no problem and we were treated to a pretty dark screen. I was still somewhat surprised at how much light was hitting the screen though which was when we noticed that if you put the lens cap on the RS1, the black level on the screen stayed the same! Yup, the ambient lighting even in the dark environment was enough to swamp the screen. This was due to the blue rope lighting used in the back hallway. When we switched it off, we could start to see the true black level on this projector and were able to see shadows on the screen when holding our hands over the lens. Even still the screen was not completely blacked out owing to light from the Exit sign (outside the room!) diffusing into the room from the hallway.

So what this means is that everyone who saw the demo with the rope lighting on (which for safety reasons meant everyone), didn't see the true capability of this projector when it comes down to absolute black levels!!! The ambient lighting was close to the black level but slightly over it. I don't think it affected the HD10K at all and probably not the Sharp much but it did affect the RS1, but not to a huge degree.

This is an important real world test when talking about on/off CR as it points out that a room has to be nearly pitch black to see the true black level on a projector with this sort of CR. If this machine is going into a room with any ambient lighting you'll never see the full 15,000:1. The other thing that was interesting is that the glow on the screen is still readily apparent even with on/off CR this high. I think most people will be very happy if not ecstatic with the image depth in the really low APL scenes but some black level videophiles will still be wanting more (big surprise).

Mark,
I'm sure it was stated earlier, but what screen were they showing this PJ on? Did the JVC guys talk about RS1/screen selection at all?
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post #115 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kevivoe View Post

He means 10 feet.

FYI

feet = '
inches = "

I think the joke went right over your head there...
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post #116 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Well no way to just say yes or no. There are a lot of factors. Now it definitely can handle a 138" with proper room, screen, etc... but we would need to know that info to specifically say yes or no to your setup.

Thanks Jason for your response. I am going to start building a dedicated Home theater in basement. So, it will have no light issues. Room dimensions is 17' X 28(or 29)'. Haven't decided on screen yet but based on reviews on this forum, it looks like it will be Carada but I am ready to go for better screens if needed to get my 138+" screen size.

I have time till Jan-Feb to own one but I need to decide which one soon so I can run the cables in the ceiling.
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post #117 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Speaking of which - one point I haven't seen discussed is that I think that the lack of a DI on this pj will make it much brighter than the Ruby/Pearl. With Ruby/Pearl and say medium APL (which many scenes are) the iris is partially closed which keeps the brighter parts of the picture less bright than intended. With RS1 without the DI will be able to display those parts at max brightness which will make the overall image pop more. Do you guys agree with this line of thinking?

On medium APL scenes the dynamic gamma algorithms won't need to work as hard as they would on a low APL scene, so the ill effects of the DI (and as much as some will contest otherwise, any video processing will have at least some ill effects) will be less.

Where high native contrast wins out over DIs is on the rarer type of scene where you have a small number of things near max brightness on a low APL scene. You only have so much room for the dynamic gamma to work with before it runs out of tarmac, and the software has to make a damned either way choice of either increasing the DI's apeture (and having elevated blacks), clipping the whites, or giving an overall washed out picture.
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post #118 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I found in my testing that the Marantz is the best single chip 1080p unit, taking price considerations out of the picture.

But note that in your review, your found the ANSI CR of the Marantz to be only 450 +/- 30, not overhwhelming for a dlp. So it sounds like this spec will not be enormously more than that of the RS1 (if it does in fact approach 400).
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post #119 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:38 PM
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Greetings all...

Just home from the West Coast and catching up on some reading here! It was really good to meet so many people from the forum and have a chance to hang out for a while. Also, thanks to all for the kind words, those 20's slipped in pockets were money well spent! :-)

A couple points of clarification...

1. The Sharp 20K does not have a DI...it has a 3 position iris that we normally ran in HC mode unless we were demonstrating the difference it black level when the projector was in HB mode.

2. We did have a Silicon Optix processor sitting on top of the HDDVD player that was feeding both the RS1 and the 20K, but was not turned on or connected...both machines were fed HDMI via a splitter. The HD10K in the other room did use the SO processor to get the proper AR for the Anamorphic lens.

3. The lens on the RS1 is manual zoom and focus, not motorized...the H and V offset is bi-directional, meaning you can adjust the image up/down/left/right. In other words, you could sit this projector right side up on a shelf, above the top of the screen and adjust the offset down as necessary...no need to invert the projector if using above the screen centerline.

4. All connectors are at the rear of the projector.

5. We did compare the Pearl side by side with the RS1 at night after the show closed...this was the first time I personally got to see the two units side by side and I will say that after considerable tweaking on the Pearl, the color and overall picture quality on the two was such that you might have thought you were looking at two RS1's or two Pearl's...this on a variety of medium to high APL scenes. With a total fade to black or a very dark starfield, the RS1 was noticeably blacker in any Iris mode and certainly as bright in a bright scene. The observations were made strictly using HDDVD source material, we didn't evaluate SD scaling or other factors, just colorimetry, brightness, black level and sharpness. There did seem to be a little bit of color non-uniformity showing up at the corners, but it was very minimal.

Thanks to Kei and her crew for having us over for drinks and an opportunity to show off the HD10K with the Schneider lens...it mesmerized a few people.

Cheers,

Tom Stites
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post #120 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Fujinon lens which makes a person wonder how the margins can work on such a low priced projector.

A JVC rep at the after party told me a combination of drops in prices on components and a huge ramp up in production (number of units they intend to sell) allowed them to lower the price as much as they did. I'm sure there are other factors as well, possibly profits from rear projection that may have compensated R&D efforts, but it sounded like those were the main reasons.

Also, there's some positive news for those looking to use an anamorphic lens for CH 2.35. One of the JVC reps said they're working with the software engineers to try and get the vertical stretch worked into the firmware, so you won't need an external scalar. Of course, these sorts of things sometimes fall through, but at least there's an attempt to get the necessary scaling on-board.

I had a great time at the after-party (thanks Kei and co) and it was good to be able to throw some questions at those JVC guys. The H10K was expertly calibrated, the color was jaw-dropping. I found out just how important color was to me, even more so than contrast ratio (which tends to hold the crown around here). I'm very much looking forward to seeing an RS1 - I only wish I was in the position to buy (from AVS) right now. However, it'll definitely be on the list when that time rolls around.
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