JVC DLA-RS1 questions answered! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 3254 Old 11-18-2006, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fr8flyr View Post

Mark I have a 135 inch diagonal GrayHawk screen in a light controlled room do you think the RS1 would be bright enough for my setup?

Earl

Hi Earl, if you have a light controlled room you may want to rethink the screen material. If you have a Stewart frame you can reuse the frame and order only the screen material and save some money. On a light controlled room with a 135" screen, this projector would look great on a ST130 and it should be plenty bright. If you needed some light rejection the new non-color shifting Firehawk probably looks good too. The high gain screens have their uses too. Tryg, Jason and Daniel are a great resource for questions like this.

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Mark, thanks for the tremendous amount of great information you've supplied for us

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Me too!

While I saw the prototype at CEDIA and had already made up my mind to get on the pre-order list, I really appreciate all the details and method in which you handled the questions. You have filled in many of the information gaps on this projector!

Thanks guys, it was fun and a pleasure meeting everyone. I think John Ballentine is right though I have gone way-over-the-top But then again what did you guys expect from an AVS AV Jihadist?

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this is going to be a very happy 66th birthday present to me this coming March!

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post #182 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

As I mentioned, I thought the overal look of the image on the Pearl is very similar to other DILA products including the RS1. I don't think a person can go wrong with either the Pearl or the RS1, but I went back and reread what Tom posted and I think it's relevant to those who are on the fence deciding between the two projectors:

"the color and overall picture quality on the two was such that you might have thought you were looking at two RS1's or two Pearl's...this on a variety of

medium to high APL scenes. With a total fade to black or a very dark starfield, the RS1 was noticeably blacker in any Iris mode and certainly as bright in a bright scene." The bold accents are mine. I thought that the comments about the black level and overall brightness are important enough to requote. Having not seen the side to side comparison, my expectation was that the DI and the 15000:1 CR spec on the Pearl would translate to similar black levels between the two projectors but that the RS1 would benefit from better instantaneous dynamic range. If as Tom points out the RS1 is delivering better black levels and better instantaneous CR, then this is well worth the small difference in price between the two projectors - at least to those who have light controlled theaters.

Another thing that I forgot to add in my posts was that I asked several of the JVC rep's if they were worried about all of this technical information about wire grid technology and redesigned panels being leaked out. They kind of shrugged and said that they know that Sony has stuff in the works too. So the display wars continue

i am happily on the RS1 pre-order list (thanks Tryg) and enjoying all the great feedback, thanks.

i do have a question. i am still considering getting a Pearl now as i want 1080p and i want it right the hell NOW. (i would then sell the Pearl when the RS1 arrives).

since the Pearl has an adjustable Iris as well as a Dynamic Iris; won't the Pearl be more adjustable as the bulb ages?.......in other words, won't the Pearl be more optimizable? it seems that without an adjustable Iris you will only be able to enjoy the 'sweet spot' of bulb life for a very limited time. and if i go to a 120" diag 2:35-1 CH screen that time will be quite limited.

i expect that my question will expose my limited understanding of these issues and apologize if i have mis-interpreted how this all works.

EDIT; my current RP (Marantz S3) is mounted from the (very dark brown painted) ceiling (23" from ceiling to center of lens).......will i be able to use a high power screen that close to the ceiling? 23" from the ceiling is the current top of my motorized screen.
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post #183 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 01:08 AM
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"since the Pearl has an adjustable Iris as well as a Dynamic Iris; won't the Pearl be more adjustable as the bulb ages?"

Yes, but that adjustment is only useful if it has excess lumens for your setup in the beginning, and your initial adjustments reduce the brightness, which you can then back off.

Noah
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post #184 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Thanks Hoya, this clarifies why Tom was seeing a lower floor on the RS1.

Using Darin's iris tweaks I've been able to get 20,000:1 out of the Pearl instead of its default settings that yield closer to 15,000:1. And even the difference between 15,000:1 and 20,000:1 is noticeable. That's also in the back of my mind - if the CR of the RS1 is indeed "only" 15,000:1 this may actually be a step back for me in what I am getting on the Ruby...
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post #185 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Hutnicki View Post

I have a grayhawk and I dont think the RS1 would be bright enough for a 135 diag. Without going into calculations I would want more than 1.3 with a screen that was bigger than 110 diag

Most definitely it will not work or even come close to working, at least once some age on the bulb is factored in - not even with a 1.3 gain screen. I posted several scenarios about screen sizes and gains and expected ftL in one of these recent JVC threads if you are interested. Bottom line is that I think you will need a high power wtih at least 2.0 gain (which may not even be obtainable if you are ceiling mounted).
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post #186 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 06:47 AM
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would a graywolf 106" screen work with the RS1 (roughly 11 foot throw, some ambient light from cream colored walls) or would I need to upgrade the screen?
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post #187 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 06:51 AM
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Sorry, forgot to mention that the projector would be shelf mounted.
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post #188 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro2 View Post

would a graywolf 106" screen work with the RS1 (roughly 11 foot throw, some ambient light from cream colored walls) or would I need to upgrade the screen?

I assume you mean reflected light from walls coming off the screen? If you mean light coming from a source other than the pj than that may change things. Basically at 106" Grayhawk with 0.95 gain and assuming 700 lumens you'd be looking at about 20ftL with a new bulb and 10ftL roughly with an aged bulb. I thing that's pretty good and can work unless you really like a super punchy image, or unless you have a fair amount of outside ambient light you cannot control (sunlight). If you dont already have the screen you may want to consider the Studiotek or Firehawk to pick up some additional gain.

Personally if I could do a shelf mount I'd go with a HighPower. You don't really need that with this this size screen and pj however.
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post #189 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 08:51 AM
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Lovingdvd, I have a graywolf--not a grayhawk screen (alas, I wish it were the other way around!). This is a gray screen with 1.8 gain. And yes, I mostly mean light reflected off the walls.
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post #190 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 09:46 AM
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I didn't attend the EXPO but went to the after-party. Thank you Kei for hosting a great party. She ran all over the place ensuring everything went running smoothly. And it surely did. The food was great and plenty for dinner, like teriyaki beef kabobs, roast beef, quiche, chicken satay curry, et al; and I was ok with just chips and salsa.

Anyhow, it was great meeting Mark Petersen and Lindahl as well - both very knowledgeable. I myself am not tech savvy but here are some quick impressions from what I saw in the Pearl, Benq 10000 and JVC 10k:

In all fairness, most of us were viewing thes pjs from over 20 ft away from the screen. From this distance, of course, all the pjs look very good and almost similar to one another that differences were quite difficult to discern. But they all looked amazingly bright on the 114" SMX screen with 1.16 gain even with the low lighting and bar with mirrors behind us. Although I noticed how it affected the Pearl's ansi quite a bit while playing The Patriot movie (under the Crystallio 2 thru hdmi) but not that much with the Benq.

Regardless of, the Pearl's image was so detailed and never looked soft at all. I personally wouldn't regret owning this one or the Benq over the JVC. Ok, I lied - I want the JVC. Sometime later though, time was spent on calibrating the Pearl which affected the grayscale and I thought colors turned a bit washed out after the color setting was toned down to 39. From there on, I could not even compare with the Benq. On another note, this Benq deserves some serious viewing from DLP fans. It was a tad sharper than the Pearl and just as detailed. It also played smoothly with less judder - might have been in the setup as the dlp was running 1080p @ 24, if I am not mistaken. The Pearl' image, however, looked slightly more refined to me.

If what I saw from the JVC 10K unit was any indication of what the RS1 might look like, then my long search is over. Unfortunately, I still have to wait for months. This unit seems to possess the best of both worlds with dlp sharpness and Pearl detail. The clarity, color accuracy and color seperation is top notch and seem a step above the other two as noticed even for a dark movie like the Chronicles of Riddick. And despite the low lighting behind us, images remained a knockout. I hope colors will still be as good in the RS1 as this is more important to me than an already improved native on/off CR. The throw and vertical stretch (if implemented) features are nice additions that will complement my purchase.
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post #191 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

medium to high APL scenes.

Excuse my ignorance Mark but what does APL stand for?

I've dove several searches here and cannot find what the definition is.

Cheers
Chris

Sony VPL-VW500ES, 150" width 2.35:1 screen, Proud owner of 1 of 399 Enzo Ferrari's in the world, a gorgeous yellow Ferrari 599GTB, + a 1970 Road Runner see it here

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post #192 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

Excuse my ignorance Mark but what does APL stand for?

I've dove several searches here and cannot find what the definition is.

APL = Average Picture Level.
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post #193 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximori View Post

If what I saw from the JVC 10K unit was any indication of what the RS1 might look like, then my long search is over. Unfortunately, I still have to wait for months. This unit seems to possess the best of both worlds with dlp sharpness and Pearl detail. The clarity, color accuracy and color seperation is top notch and seem a step above the other two as noticed even for a dark movie like the Chronicles of Riddick. And despite the low lighting behind us, images remained a knockout. I hope colors will still be as good in the RS1 as this is more important to me than an already improved native on/off CR. The throw and vertical stretch (if implemented) features are nice additions that will complement my purchase.

I spent about 6 to 7 hours with the Meridian Faroudja D-ILA 1080MF1 and if the proto RS1 was any indication of how the colors looked like on the Meridian, then I think it looked overly warm like 2 layers of CC10M Tiffen filter over the lens and this was at color temp D65 setting. The facial tan was so deep compared to my Ruby which looked more natural on the scene with the little boys face with the braces in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. No doubt the colors are very pleasing, but too golden, too cinemaish! With my Ruby and VP50 and the tweaks galore it provides, it fairs very well with the Meridian.
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post #194 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedro2 View Post

Lovingdvd, I have a graywolf--not a grayhawk screen (alas, I wish it were the other way around!). This is a gray screen with 1.8 gain. And yes, I mostly mean light reflected off the walls.

Ah, sorry 'bout that - I though that was a typo . Ok so with 1.8 gain at 700 lumens would be about 38ftL with a new bulb and say 19ftL with an aged bulb. Should work great I would think.
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post #195 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:34 AM
 
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Sorry, forgot to mention that the projector would be shelf mounted

if that is the case, the highpower would work well with the projector assuming the shelf is somewhere near the head area
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post #196 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Tan View Post

I spent about 6 to 7 hours with the Meridian Faroudja D-ILA 1080MF1 and if the proto RS1 was any indication of how the colors looked like on the Meridian, then I think it looked overly warm like 2 layers of CC10M Tiffen filter over the lens and this was at color temp D65 setting. The facial tan was so deep compared to my Ruby which looked more natural on the scene with the little boys face with the braces in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. No doubt the colors are very pleasing, but too golden, too cinemaish! With my Ruby and VP50 and the tweaks galore it provides, it fairs very well with the Meridian.

Don't compare the MF1 with the 10K and RS1 too closely. The MF1 isn't merely a rebadged JVC. From what I understand the housing and optics are different and every unit is hand calibrated using the William Phelps process and none leave to a customer without meeting very low tolerances of shading and color uniformity and perfect D65. The housing yields an even quiter projector than the 10K.

-kraig
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post #197 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:39 AM
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38ftL ???
You guys are nuts

I prefer it around 15 ftL for best viewing experience.

/Sören
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post #198 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:49 AM
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lovingdvd,
(or anyone who would know):
I have a pre-order on the JVC RS1 as well. I have a similar question to Pedro2 - I have a 92" diagonal Greyhawk (yes Greyhawk) screen. Black wall behind screen and cream color on left and right. White ceiling. 14' wide room. I have an 128" (10.6') throw lens to screen. I will be watching with no other light light.
What kind of light output can I expect? Also, how do you calcualte the FTL for a given screen and projector?
Regards,
Dom
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post #199 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigk View Post

Don't compare the MF1 with the 10K and RS1 too closely. The MF1 isn't merely a rebadged JVC. From what I understand the housing and optics are different and every unit is hand calibrated using the William Phelps process and none leave to a customer without meeting very low tolerances of shading and color uniformity and perfect D65. The housing yields an even quiter projector than the 10K.

Perfect D65? Wow not all movies should look like fantasy land tiptoeing in strawberry fields forever. I understand the MF1 is reference standrad D65, great dynamic range displaying wider than wide range of intermediate tones. But golden tan like on the beach for 4 hours for 4 days, well I'm sure there are settings to correct it to a more natural looking white person.
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post #200 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:55 AM
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lovingdvd,
P.S. to my previous reply: Although I am sure you know - the gain (or lack of) on the Greyhawk is .95.
Regards,
Dom
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post #201 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:57 AM
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Soren, I take it you think this will be plenty bright enough...perhaps too bright?!

Lovingdvd and daniel, thanks for the input. The JVC would stretch my projector budget, so was hoping not to have to upgrade the screen as well--hence my question. The other constraint (which I should have mentioned right away) is that it needs to be a pull-down screen (not permanent/fixed) because of the layout and multi-use nature of the room. So, that limits the options further.
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post #202 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 10:58 AM
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20-50 foot lamberts is a great place to be
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post #203 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DomNY View Post

lovingdvd,
(or anyone who would know):
I have a pre-order on the JVC RS1 as well. I have a similar question to Pedro2 - I have a 92" diagonal Greyhawk (yes Greyhawk) screen. Black wall behind screen and cream color on left and right. White ceiling. 14' wide room. I have an 128" (10.6') throw lens to screen. I will be watching with no other light light.
What kind of light output can I expect? Also, how do you calcualte the FTL for a given screen and projector?
Regards,
Dom

Looks like it would be a great fit (assuming 700 lumens is actually delivered). 26.5ftL new, and say 13ft on an aged bulb. I like a very bright and punchy picture and consider even the 8ftL I get now on my Ruby with 500 hrs on the bulb to be very satisfying, so I think you would be very good with this setup. BTW, for goodness sake paint that ceiling something other than white!
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post #204 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 11:08 AM
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lovingdvd,
Can you divulge how you calculated the FTL? Also:
We all know that life means making compromises. My house is an old cape cod style with no room for a dedicated theater. So............................It is in my living room (or my fomer living room). I had to keep the ceiling white. It is the first thing you see when you walk in the house! But I did get to put theater seats, sound panels etc. where needed. So a compromise on the wall and ceiling color was needed.

Regards,
Dom
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post #205 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 11:09 AM
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Quote:


Also, how do you calcualte the FTL for a given screen and projector?

The formula is the lumen output of the projector (which should be lumens at calibrated levels for the light settings you're going to use) multiplied by gain of the screen divided by area of the screen.

Bob
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post #206 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 11:09 AM
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I think 20+ ftL is too bright yes!
It actually worries me that there is no iris where I can dampen the light output on this beast.

I have a 100" firehawk.

BTW ...
Has anyone here seen an number on expected hours on the lamp?

/Sören
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post #207 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

5. We did compare the Pearl side by side with the RS1 at night after the show closed... The observations were made strictly using HDDVD source material, we didn't evaluate SD scaling or other factors, just colorimetry, brightness, black level and sharpness. There did seem to be a little bit of color non-uniformity showing up at the corners, but it was very minimal.

Could you please clarify the your sentence regarding color non-uniformity in the corners? Were you refereing to the Pearl?

Thanks.
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post #208 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 11:12 AM
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make sure you convert area of screen into feet.


Projector lumens * Screen Gain /(area of screen in feet not inches)
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post #209 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Using Darin's iris tweaks I've been able to get 20,000:1 out of the Pearl instead of its default settings that yield closer to 15,000:1. And even the difference between 15,000:1 and 20,000:1 is noticeable. That's also in the back of my mind - if the CR of the RS1 is indeed "only" 15,000:1 this may actually be a step back for me in what I am getting on the Ruby...

It sounds like the Pearl CR numbers are all over the map. HoustonHoyaFan was saying only 10,000:1 @ D65 for the Pearl. This could represent difficulties in measuring CR that high as well as real world differences between actual projectors. The JVC specs also tend to be conservative so that all the units should meet or exceed their numbers. As an example, the HD2K was rated at 2000:1 and Darin measured 2400:1 on his. Applying the same 20% factor to the 15000:1 spec yields a delivered 18000:1 (Yeah I know this is just speculation though, YMMV ). Absolute CR figures aside though, the fact that the RS1 delivers these numbers instaneously without a DI should have perceptual benefits too.

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Originally Posted by Ximori View Post

Anyhow, it was great meeting Mark Petersen and Lindahl as well

Good meeting you too Ximori. I hope to see you again at other events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

Excuse my ignorance Mark but what does APL stand for?

Yup, lovingdvd is right APL = average picture level.
I think that it was Hoya or Ericglo that found an interesting white paper about mtf that as a side benefit shows some actual photos with a luminance histogram and APL numbers in it. This helps to get a better feel for how the APL numbers translate into real world images.
http://etconsult.com/papers/Black%20...tt%20Cowan.pdf
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post #210 of 3254 Old 11-19-2006, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigk View Post

Don't compare the MF1 with the 10K and RS1 too closely. The MF1 isn't merely a rebadged JVC. From what I understand the housing and optics are different and every unit is hand calibrated using the William Phelps process and none leave to a customer without meeting very low tolerances of shading and color uniformity and perfect D65. The housing yields an even quiter projector than the 10K.

kraigk, I think he was directly referring to a MF1 that he viewed, which is astonishing because the MF1 is probably the most D65 color accurate projector shipped today courtesy of Wm. The golden tint that he saw may have been in the film itself or it could have been a source problem in the player. People need to remember that even with a color and greyscale accurate projector that source setup is not just a necessary but critical part of the viewing experience. I can't tell you have many times I've had to futze around with player and processor settings to remove black crush for example.
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