JVC DLA-RS1 questions answered! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I just got back from some serious drinking er ahem I mean socializing with the folks from JVC at the AVS/Digital Connection party. You've got to hand it to Kei Clark, not only is she pretty but she throws a great party The JVC reps were out in force at the EH Expo. I had a chance to speak at length with many of the fine folks at JVC from Tom Stites, Jack Faiman, Bill Bleha, Gary Klasmeier, Rob, Ken, Alex and Tom's boss Lon Mass. It was also great meeting so many AVS'ers today. I had a chance to meet with John Ballentine, Daniel Hutnicki, Ximori, Lindahl, Lisa Issacsson. It was great meeting with everyone and talking to people who are also passionate about video and HT.

I collected the questions about the DLA-RS1 that everyone on the forum wanted answered and Tom Stites was kind enough to have a long sit down with both John Ballentine and I so that we could answer these questions. It occurred to me that this is probably an AVS Forum first - a virtual interview where you guys asked the questions and I just wrote down the answers.

Before we go onto the questions, one note about this DLA-RS1 prototype - It's the same exact protoype that was shown at CEDIA. It's a very early prototype and JVC feels confident that the product will be improved before it ships. The unit shown at CES will be a real production unit and if what JVC says is true, it will be worth a trip to CES to see the full potential of this fine machine!

Here is the list which is a mix of questions for Tom as well as my own observations of the RS1 that people asked me to make.
  • Sharpness - excellent (more on that later)
  • Brightness - Yes this projector will have 700 lumens not 800 and JVC will be accurate with this spec (700 min at D65 high bulb setting).
  • ANSI CR - JVC doesn't release ANSI CR specs because most consumers don't understand it and it can cause confusion with on/off specs. Verbally though, they are measuring 300-350:1 although this spec may go higher as has on/off CR.
  • On/Off CR - 15000:1 and this is a conservative number
  • Noise level - It was quiet, but forget measuring it or basing any assumptions from this prototype machine because the fan was cranked on high and the final product will be more refined.
  • low level detail - excellent (more on this later).
  • shadow detail - really impressive (more on this later).
  • handling of high apl scenes - excellent.
  • color accuracy - The color was excellent although the HD10K has a wider color gamut and is exceptional in this regard. So this is one area the HD10K still holds an advantage over the RS1.
  • video noise - source video noise was apparent. The HD-DVD of U-571 does have film grain in scenes and this was apparent on the RS-1 but it didn't add any additional noise. It seemed very true to the source, but more on this later.
  • deinterlacing quality - EDIT: I took some notes about the 1080i60 2-3 pulldown to 1080p60 deinterlacing quality and then removed them after I remembered seeing the HQV logo. Tom has clarified that the Toshiba HD-A1 was in fact fed directly into the RS1 and the HQV was being used on the HD10K. As I posted earlier, the 1080i60->1080p60 looked every bit as good as my VP50 and HQV solutions at home. There was no obvious soft 'bob" 1080i deinterlacing going on. We'll have to wait for more info about 480i, pal and odd cadence detection and deinterlacing.
  • 2.35:1 CH Stretch - The RS1 currently doesn't do this, but this is one feature that JVC wants to add before the product ships.
  • Convergence - This was difficult to gauge on the prototype without putting up a test pattern which I was hesitant to do with so many people wanting to see this projector. Tom however said that the final product will ship with less than a 1 pixel error.
  • User level convergence adjustment - Yes! User accessible convergence adjustments allowing for a full panel shift to get overall convergence within 1 pixel. This is similar to what is in the HD10K.
  • Shading / White level uniformity - Excellent on this prototype. I really looked hard to spot uniformity issues but I couldn't see any. JVC has been good in this respect for the past few years and they felt this trend will continue with the new panels.
  • RS1 vs Pearl, HD10K, Marantz 11S1, Sharp - This is the question that everyone wants to hear. More on that later (sorry).
  • Air Flow - Yes the intake is on the right front (if you're looking into the lens) and the exhaust is on the left front. The exhaust is ducted so it doesn't blow straight out, but off to the side. It's also a low velocity / low volume and not as hot as you would expect.
  • black level uniformity - I looked hard for *any* evidence of brighter or darker corners but I couldn't see any at all. With blanked video the black level uniformity was perfect.
  • pixel grid / SDE - There is a very fine SDE on this projector, but it's improved over the Pearl or my HD2K (both of which look very similar in this respect). People talk about the HD2K not having SDE but the reality is that it's noticeable (but not objectionable) from a ways back. On the RS1 it's hard to see from 3 feet away.
  • light spill - none
  • Sealed optics? - The panels are sealed but the optics are filtered similar to the HD10K, HD2K, etc.
  • bulb modes - There will be two bulb settings but they won't be that far apart. Maybe 20% or ~200 lumens apart (700 and 500 lumens for example). Both will have the same color tracking (no color shifting), sound levels for each setting is TBA.
  • warranty policy - 2 years. Dead pixels (not sure how many or on what colors), bad convergence (>1 pixel), bad shading will be covered.
  • SD/HD colorspace support and ability to modify color primaries - SD and HD colorspaces are supported and auto selected based on resolution (support for user overeride may be added). Color primaries are fixed in the optics although RGB gains can be modified allowing shifts within the gamut.
  • User upgradeable via flash updates - Yes to some extent (earlier JVC projectors had this feature but it was unused as there were no SW updates).
  • 1080i60 to 1080p24 3-2 cadence removal for film sources - This is a feature that JVC is interested in and they will look into it to see if their architecture supports it. EDIT: I should make it clear that the RS1 doesn't currently support it, but JVC may add it *if* the architecture supports it.
  • Gennum model and features - Gennum 9351 more info on features will be forthcoming.
  • lamp replacement cost - Should be roughtly the same as the HD2K/HD10K (less than $500 list).
  • UHP behavior and lifetime - JVC feels that the bulb lifetime, aging/brightness profile should be similar to the past UHP bulbs although it is a different lamp.
  • Number of gamma memories - 4 memories that are user accessable (similar to the HD2K).
  • Final ANSI spec - As mentioned above it is around 300-350:1 although I'm curious if this number will be revised up as has the on/off CR..
  • Chip backplane - This chip uses a digital backplane using PWM drive techniques. The granularity is fine enough though that it doesn't suffer from artifacting like earlier PWM drive technologies (early Plasma and DLP for example). We froze the screen and I looked hard for any sort of shimmer or unsteadiness in pixels but it was rock solid. JVC also mentioned that the analog backplane suffered from crosstalk which could in rare cases cause subtle ghosting effects which are now history. They didn't say it, but I assume the PWM resolution is 12-bit similar to the earlier JVC digital panels.
  • Panel refresh rate - 24p frames use 96hz refresh (24p up'ed to 48p with 2x refresh), 50p frames use 100hz refresh.
  • low level noise / dithering / banding / countouring - I wasn't able to spot any other than those that you see in the source (HD-DVD logo for example).

Edit: Part 2 can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8928782

Part 3 can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8933626

Photos can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8927930
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8928055

More to follow....
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post #2 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:25 AM
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Thanks for your effort!
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post #3 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:28 AM
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Great information! Thanks Mark!!!!! And very nice re the SD/HD color space auto detection.

Therese
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post #4 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:32 AM
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Wow lots of useful info!
I don't see how much more convincing people need to get this pj other than what you posted.
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post #5 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:33 AM
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Mark,

Thank you for sharing this information. I know a lot of people have been waiting for such information. I have already joined the prebuy w/AVS based on others information and seeing your input really seals the deal for me. I look forward to the additional details on the items you mentioned.

Thanks,

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post #6 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:33 AM
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There have been many reports that they where using the same prototype from cedia.

Was the unit on display only outputing 10000:1 CR?
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post #7 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:34 AM
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Wow!! Thanks for gathering all that information in one place, Mark. And thanks to the JVC guys for being so responsive to your questions. It really speaks well of them.

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post #8 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:54 AM
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Thanks Mark!

This sets a new benchmark for AVS forum roving show reports/reporters. Hell I'd chip in to help pay for expenses for reports like this.

-kraig
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post #9 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 08:57 AM
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Mark - Another question..Were you able to verify if the 700 lumens (D65K) were independent of throw?

Thanks
Therese
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post #10 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
pixel grid / SDE - There is a very fine SDE on this projector, but it's improved over the Pearl or my HD2K (both of which look very similar in this respect).

Improved over the Pearl?
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post #11 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:12 AM
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Great report, Mark! I am looking forward to your "more on this later" addendum reports...
Quote:
Color primaries are fixed in the optics although RGB gains can be modified allowing shifts within the gamut.

I'm not clear what you mean by this. Does the RS1 have a true color management system (like Sharp or Marantz)? Are all of the primaries and secondaries movable within the CIE colorspace, as well as having adjustments for luminance?

Thanks again...Wonderful news!!
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post #12 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:22 AM
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I would also like some verification that throw does not affect lumen output if possible.

Thanks for your hard work! As you know, we all verry much appreciate your efforts!

This unit sounds incredible. User adjustable convergence? Awesome!

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #13 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

There have been many reports that they where using the same prototype from cedia.

Was the unit on display only outputing 10000:1 CR?

I brought my CA813 light meter and Tom said that if I waited for a lull in the foot traffic that they wouldn't mind turning off their U-571 demo for a short while allowing me to take some measurements. We both came to the conclusion however that it's a pointless exercise because this is an early prototype. The fact that they were open to the idea though showed that they didn't have anything to hide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

And thanks to the JVC guys for being so responsive to your questions. It really speaks well of them.

Yeah the JVC guys were all really helpful and very patient. Tom Stites in particular was just a wealth of information, not just about JVC products but he understands the technology well so he could quickly answer questions from all over the map, from 3-2 telecine judder to color primaries... He also has a discerning eye and knows what elements make up a good picture. Definitely a seasoned veteran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigk View Post

This sets a new benchmark for AVS forum roving show reports/reporters. Hell I'd chip in to help pay for expenses for reports like this.

I accept paypal! (j/k of course and before anyone asks, no I don't work for JVC nor do/did I accept bribes from them (monetarily , sexual , or other ). But that's only because they didn't offer any ).

Seriuosuly though, collecting questions from AVS'ers and then getting them answered was fun and this is a great idea for future shows if we can get people to volunteer. EH Expo was easier because of the RS1 focus though.
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post #14 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:35 AM
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Wasnt trying to imply they where hiding anything. Just that if they where showing the same unit at cedia the impression might be based off of 10k instead of 15k =)

But I think Jason implied in another thread that changes had been made to the prototype.

I cant beleave they said they would allow you to take readings! Talk about beleaving in your product.
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post #15 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:40 AM
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Mark, thanks for this great information. This sounds extremely impressive!

Per Johnny
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post #16 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:40 AM
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Whoo hoo! This is excellent! Thanks Mark for doing my job. I couldn't make it to the show.
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post #17 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:43 AM
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hehe thats because your too busy taking pre-orders!
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post #18 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 09:45 AM
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Tom Stites previously indicated that the lens was a constant aperture, so no lumen loss with zoom.

Any idea if there is the option/mode for lower contrast but higher lumen -> for sports watching ?

- Andy
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post #19 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

...
  • ...color accuracy - The color was excellent although the HD10K has a wider color gamut and is exceptional in this regard. So this is one area the HD10K still holds an advantage over the RS1....
  • Panel refresh rate - 24p frames use 96hz refresh (24p up'ed to 48p with 2x refresh), 50p frames use 100hz refresh....

More to follow....

Good job Mark,


At least I still one advantage in color accuracy but what about optics? Is the RS1's optics going to be comparable to the HD10K? What will be the panel refresh rate for 60 Hz i and p...and the big question: Are you going to sale your HD2K and get a RS1?


Also is there any info on supporting HDMI1.3 input and if so does it support over-sampled (hi bit) color?
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post #20 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:13 AM
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Great Job Mark!

This is very helpful with these preorders!
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post #21 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Lammer View Post

Tom Stites previously indicated that the lens was a constant aperture, so no lumen loss with zoom.

Any idea if there is the option/mode for lower contrast but higher lumen -> for sports watching ?

- Andy

I too would be interested in that option. In any event, I have put my name down on the pre-order list.
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post #22 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpwj40e View Post

Mark - Another question..Were you able to verify if the 700 lumens (D65K) were independent of throw?

No, although if you follow JVC products they are always conservative on their specs both in lumens and contrast. It's likely that this is the reason for the recent 800 to 700 lumen downgrade (so they can ensure that the production units exceed 700 lumens).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Improved over the Pearl?

The SDE on the RS1 is improved over both the Pearl and the HD2K although this is subjective because I wasn't A/B testing them at the same time. After 2 years with my HD2K though, I have a pretty good feel what it looks like . I mentioned in another thread that I was surprised how similar SDE looks between the Pearl SXRD and the 2nd gen DILA panels, I expected more differences between them (SXRD and 2nd gen DILA) and didn't see it. There was much bigger difference in SDE between the 1st (G series) and 2nd gen (SX/HX/HD series) DILA. The 3rd gen panels in the RS1 seem to be a further refinement although not by a huge amount. I also wasn't able to verify the focus which plays a big roll in examining SDE, the pixels looked well defined and sharp though.

Speaking of SDE, John Ballentine pointed out that the SDE on the HD10K + anamorphic lens demo was almost nonexistant. The combination of added pixel density and slightly more optical distortions nearly removed SDE completely from this demo. The HD10K was projecting onto the same size screen as the RS1, but it was done so anamorphically whereas the RS1 was 16x9 letterboxed onto a 2.35:1 screen. The lower pixel density (larger projected pixels) and sharper optical path (without the additional anamorphic lens) made the RS1 SDE a little more noticeable although without the anamorpihc lens I feel that this would be reversed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I'm not clear what you mean by this. Does the RS1 have a true color management system (like Sharp or Marantz)? Are all of the primaries and secondaries movable within the CIE colorspace, as well as having adjustments for luminance?

It's not a true color management system. It's similar to the HD2K/HD10K wjere the color gamut within the CIE colorspace is fixed, although points within the colorspace can be shifted with the RGB gains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I would also like some verification that throw does not affect lumen output if possible

I didn't take any measurements but Tom said that the lumen output won't be affected by throw. In actual practice I'm sure that there will be a small difference, but it shouldn't be as much as the Ruby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Whoo hoo! This is excellent! Thanks Mark for doing my job. I couldn't make it to the show

You couldn't make it because you're too busy trying to find more room under the mattress for all of that RS1 cash. I would have gladly traded places (and cash flow) with you. I also have to point out that Jason's CEDIA impressions were dead on. The RS1 is a great machine and Jason was one of those at CEDIA who got it right (more on that later).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Lammer View Post

Any idea if there is the option/mode for lower contrast but higher lumen -> for sports watching ?

There is the high and low bulb setting modes. I also forgot to mention that there are a few color temperature settings (for the unsophsticated non AVS members who prefer something besides D65). Also there are the 4 gamma settings which is useful - As an example my Wm Phelps optimized HD2K uses these for: SD and HD sources coupled with and without a CCF filter. A person could also use a different gamma profile for something like say sports vs film.
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post #23 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:30 AM
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Thanks for all the info Mark, looking foward to your further comments. I preordered mine from Jason yesterday and can't wait till they start shipping.
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post #24 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Good job Mark,


At least I still one advantage in color accuracy but what about optics? Is the RS1's optics going to be comparable to the HD10K? What will be the panel refresh rate for 60 Hz i and p...and the big question: Are you going to sale your HD2K and get a RS1?


Also is there any info on supporting HDMI1.3 input and if so does it support over-sampled (hi bit) color?

More on this later, but the HD10K was truly stunning. The image this thing throws has got to be the best kept secret of the past year. This is the first time I've seen it properly setup in a well light controlled room and it was gorgeous. My HD2K should be similar but it's not. It was one of the very early HD2K's and Tom mentioned that there was a manufacturing problem that was fixed early on involving contamination of the 1/4 wave plate that hurts ANSI CR. It turns out that Rob Budde from JVC field support was there and he lives close by and he offered to come over and clean it. This made the trip well worth it for me (thanks in advance Rob). The RS1 throws a very similar image to the HD10K, but with more depth in the really dark scenes.

As far as the 48hz flicker that you see on the HD10K, the new drive scheme should fix it. The more I've dug into this, it's apparent that the analog backplane DILA devices were driven at the vertical refresh rate of the signal. Basically frame rate and panel refresh rate were coupled 1:1. Which correlates with what Wm was measuring. I believe that this is where the flicker that you see at 48hz on the HD10K is coming from. The RS1 on the otherhand will refresh @ 96hz for 24p film sources so there shouldn't be any flicker *or* judder

I forgot to add 1.3 HDMI support to my list of questions. Sorry

Oh yeah and I'm on the prebuy list and after seeing the unit I thought enough about it's price and performance to call a relative and tell them to get in on the prebuy too.
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post #25 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

RS1 vs Pearl, HD10K, Marantz 11S1, Sharp - This is the question that everyone wants to hear. More on that later (sorry).

The world's personal productivity gridns to a halt as we await Mark's report!

Type faster!!

Please!!!!

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post #26 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Oh yeah and I'm on the prebuy list and after seeing the unit I thought enough about it's price and performance to call a relative and tell them to get in on the prebuy too.

Yuppers. All set.
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post #27 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Tom said the unit was the same machine from CEDIA. The improvements that are coming out are due to continued development changes in Japan rather than on this prototype. One thing that was really encouraging is that JVC feels very strongly that the final production unit will be much improved over the prototype that they are showing now.
" - Mark Petersen


Thought I would copy this over from the other forum =)

so it is possible you where only seeing 10k:1 contrast?
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post #28 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

so it is possible you where only seeing 10k:1 contrast?

Stay tuned, for the next update as this will surprise a few people
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post #29 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 11:28 AM
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For $50 more you can get it in Pink like the Razor phone?
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post #30 of 3254 Old 11-17-2006, 11:35 AM
 
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I met Mark at the party and not only does he know his stuff, but he is a nice guy too
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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