1080p-720p shoot-out in Athens! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

I thought they did!

"HD VIDEO: BenQ demo, Epson Demo, Shakira Tortura mtv video clip, Samsung Demo, (all at 1920Χ1080i)
HD FILM: Starship Troopers (1920Χ1080i)
SD FILM: SW III, Chronicles of ridick, Sin City, Alexander, Van Helsing (all 720X576)"

That is true but they aren't showing us those screen shots.
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post #92 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 12:24 PM
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Although a lot of fun, and our Greek comrades get an A for the event and post, this is not a controlled scientific experiment that can have conclusive results. The mathematical differences between 720 and 1080 resolution are small enough that the many variables involved in this event (or other similar) test could easily unwittingly skew the results and perception as viewed.

This test does point out several things that are very important. Front projection is most demanding/least forgiving; it has many variables, each which makes maybe a small effect on its own, but can have a very large cumulative effect with other variables. The lesson learned is to keep each variable at the highest quality possible.

The interesting fact that is implied in the event, and one poster brought up, is how our visual perception and acuity relative to screen size/viewing distance and resolution is so important. http://www.carltonbale.com/blog/2006...p-does-matter/

Finally, what do you think the chances are that you will find many run of the mill installers/retailers who will look at your design, examine the visual acuity/screen size/distance factors verses resolution, find that you will not be able to detect the difference between 720 and 1080...and tell you about it? Nah, most are going to sell you the 1080p for the $. Nevermind about them properly considering all the other variables for you.
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post #93 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

They only had one 1080 clip in use, everything else was scaled DVD.

It would have been interesting to see more 1080 content.

Cheers,


John, with all due respect, I really do not understand why you keep saying that we only had one 1080 clip in use...I said from the beginning (and I repeated after your first post) that we used the following 1920X1080 HD clips in the following order:"HD VIDEO: BenQ demo, Epson Demo, Shakira Tortura mtv video clip, Samsung Demo, (all at 1920Χ1080i)
HD FILM: Starship Troopers (1920Χ1080i)

Bear in mind that all the HD video clips are the best available we could find in terms of picture clarity and are the ones you will find in those little media boxes you see behind the demo HD TV sets in a A/V store. We had tons of this HD stuff, we only picked the best available!
After the HD comparison, we played some very difficult and revealing DVD scenes from SW III, Chronicles of ridick, Sin City, Alexander, Van Helsing (in this order).
Finally, we watched some BluRay (MI III, Tears of the Sun) to the 1080 unit.

A Never Ending Quest Τowards Visual Nirvana..
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post #94 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

That is true but they aren't showing us those screen shots.

The screenshot I originaly posted were from BenQ and the Epson 1080 demo, and they were posted so that you could get an idea of how the shoot-out was performed. If we knew that there would be people ready to make any serious picture judgement from screenshots, we would have paused the camera and make some really good screenshots for the avs folks!

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post #95 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

Just wondering why the pj's were not set up on top (vertical array) of each other?
Just wondering!

That was the original thought, but it worked out better with the on top setup (perfect alignment of the two units with the Marantz menu grid). Moreover, with this setup, we did not have to move our head right and left to spot the differences.

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post #96 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

The viewing distance in this test is what might be called 'unreasonably close' - very few people will sit that close.

I would not call 1.35x screen width unreasonably close. I sit at 1.45x. Due to all the issues with digital projectors, it is very common for people to sit what I call "unreasonably far" from them to reduce artifacts, but if you go into a theater, you'll see most people sit closer than the average digital PJ home theater with many closer than 1.5x. In the CRT projector world where we have not been limited by artifacts, the majority sit 1.5x or closer. In fact, very very few CRT users sit further than 1.75x whereas 2x or 2.25x is not uncommen in digital PJ home theaters. So, in no way is 1.35x unreasonably close.

Dave
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post #97 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 01:10 PM
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Marantz is using Gennum processor so I think 720 PJ is probably benefiting more than 1080 PJ due to superior capabilities of Gennum to properly downscale 1080 to 720.

I would be more interested to see a "real-life" scenario of how 2 mid range 720 and 1080 pjs compare head to head. That is where one should see the differences due to "average" downscaling capabilities of 720 pj vs. 1:1 pixel mapping for 1080 pj. I am having a feeling that this should produce quite a bit more than subtle difference.

JMO, I am not a video pro [flame suit on].
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post #98 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Although a lot of fun, and our Greek comrades get an A for the event and post, this is not a controlled scientific experiment that can have conclusive results. The mathematical differences between 720 and 1080 resolution are small enough that the many variables involved in this event (or other similar) test could easily unwittingly skew the results and perception as viewed.

This test does point out several things that are very important. Front projection is most demanding/least forgiving; it has many variables, each which makes maybe a small effect on its own, but can have a very large cumulative effect with other variables. The lesson learned is to keep each variable at the highest quality possible.

The interesting fact that is implied in the event, and one poster brought up, is how our visual perception and acuity relative to screen size/viewing distance and resolution is so important. http://www.carltonbale.com/blog/2006...p-does-matter/

Finally, what do you think the chances are that you will find many run of the mill installers/retailers who will look at your design, examine the visual acuity/screen size/distance factors verses resolution, find that you will not be able to detect the difference between 720 and 1080...and tell you about it? Nah, most are going to sell you the 1080p for the $. Nevermind about them properly considering all the other variables for you.

As I said in the beginning we tried to make this shoot-out as objective as possible.
It was not in any way a controlled scientific experiment but more an honest attempt to see in real life the differences between the 720 and 1080 DLP panels.
In that respect we took all precautions we could think in order to make this test valid:
1) We used one screen in a tottaly light controlled environment
2) We had the projectors D65 calibrated and matched in brightness by an ISF certified professional.
3) We locked both projectors to their native resolution by 1:1 pixel mapping, avoiding thus the use of both projectors internal scaler/deinterlacer.
4)We used two HTPCs with the identical hardware and software configuration
5) We hand-picked the best out of dozens of High Quality HD 1080 clips available (I have around 800 gigabytes of HD material in my Hard discs) to ensure that, if there were any differences, the material would reveal them! Let me tell you, that the clips used are FAR better than the HD demo clips than the ones used to demonstrate the Sony, Samsung and Panasonic BluRay players.
So, I sincerely doubt that we would have different results if we had used pg. two BRays or HD DVDs.

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post #99 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse98 View Post

Marantz is using Gennum processor so I think 720 PJ is probably benefiting more than 1080 PJ due to superior capabilities of Gennum to properly downscale 1080 to 720.

I would be more interested to see a "real-life" scenario of how 2 mid range 720 and 1080 pjs compare head to head. That is where one should see the differences due to "average" downscaling capabilities of 720 pj vs. 1:1 pixel mapping for 1080 pj. I am having a feeling that this should produce quite a bit more than subtle difference.

JMO, I am not a video pro [flame suit on].

The processor on both projectors was disabled due to the 1:1 pixel mapping. All scaling/deinterlacing was done by the HTPCs.

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post #100 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

The processor on both projectors was disabled due to the 1:1 pixel mapping. All scaling/deinterlacing was done by the HTPCs.

Takisoft, let me first say that your shootout was an excellent idea -- I enjoyed reading this thread as I am in the same boat as many AVS users with itch to upgrade to 1080.

Having said that, this does not address my concern -- majority of people will have no processors and most likely feed their 1080 signal from HD-DVD/BluRay or HDTV broadcast directly into projector. HTPC is known for very good video processing capabilities (some claim it performs better that 3-4K processors like Gennum, I can't verify this claim -- just what I read on AVS). So it pretty much leaves us with the same dilemma -- what would be the difference between mid-range 720 and 1080 projectors without superior signal processing.

Another thing to consider is how 1080 signal is processed for 720 projector -- is it bobbed (or is it veawed) to 540p first and then upscaled to 720 (as cheaper processors will do), or is it downscaled directly to 720 (that what Gennum and HTPC would do).

Just saying there are too many variable to consider before saying that the difference between 720 and 1080 is subtle.

Thanks, Davie.
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post #101 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Davie, thank you for your kind words! Just some food for thought: The 1080 unit was fed with a 1920X1080 clip at its native resolution (1920X1080). That means that no scaling would be done in this unit, just deinterlacing within the HTPC.
One the other hand, we have the 720 unit fed with the exact same 1080 clip at its native resolution (1280X720). That means that within the HTPC it must be performed deinterlacing AND scaling! Dont you agree that the 1080 unit should have an advantage?
Well, in real life, we had very hard time telling any differences from 4 meters and above, and both units exchibit a very sharp and detailed image!

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post #102 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

Davie, thank you for your kind words! Just some food for thought: The 1080 unit was fed with a 1920X1080 clip at its native resolution (1920X1080). That means that no scaling would be done in this unit, just deinterlacing within the HTPC.
One the other hand, we have the 720 unit fed with the exact same 1080 clip at its native resolution (1280X720). That means that within the HTPC it must be performed deinterlacing AND scaling! Dont you agree that the 1080 unit should have an advantage?
Well, in real life, we had very hard time telling any differences from 4 meters and above, and both units exchibit a very sharp and detailed image!

I would say that 1080 pj should have an advantage, but it doesn't per your test (or at least it is very subtle) -- that's why your thread is so hot because it defies the logic (particularly for the screen that big).

But back to my point, a good HTPC is capable of very good scaling/deinterlacing. Read this:

http://www.hardware.info/articles/am..._DVD_players/1

So, technically your test (while completely valid for people with good processors/HTPC) might (and I stress might) produce quite a different result if no advanced pre-processing is used on mid-range PJs (signal is fed directly into PJ).

But I am sure very happy with results of your shoot-out as I will be using HTPC pre-processing feed into my 720 Sharp -- would I still try to give 1080 a shot and put it head to head with my 720 ? You betcha.

Cheers, Davie.
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post #103 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse98 View Post

So, technically your test (while completely valid for people with good processors/HTPC) might (and I stress might) produce quite a different result if no advanced pre-processing is used on mid-range PJs (signal is fed directly into PJ).

Davie, let me stress out that the objective of this test was not to compare two projectors but the 720 and 1080 panels. In that respect we thought it would be crutial to feed them the best HD material available through one of the best HD sources today (HTPC). This way, if there were any siginificant differences, they would pop out..
I have no doubt that if we fed them with a lesser source the results might be different, but then again that it wasnt what we were investigating..

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post #104 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 03:19 PM
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Either they updated the page, or I missed the HD Video listings. It's quite possible I missed the HD Video listings.

I've been known to miss stuff before

Cheers,

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Opinions are mine, not the publication I write for.
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post #105 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 03:22 PM
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takisot,
I think you guys went above and beyond the call of duty to try to make this fair and objective. Folks just keep wanting to believe that there's a big difference, but there just isn't. I do think we're reaching a plateau in what we can attain.

Thanks again! Awesome thread!
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post #106 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 03:23 PM
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Takisot,

Why are you wasting your time replying to all these people. The majority of us understand your test and what you were trying to do. Thanks for the effort. We understand you weren't conducting a science experiment and were simply putting together a quick and simple method to show the differences between 1080p vs 720p. Nice touch having the projectors project on the same screen at the same time. Some people refuse to accept results and come up with whatever excuses to make themselves feel better. It's funny. All these people claim how obvious the difference should be but apparently the differences are only perceived under scientific test conditions, not real World conditions. Takisot, thanks for your honest results under real World viewing conditions. The results were eye opening but unfortunately a lot of people still have there eyes closed.
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post #107 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by aceg1 View Post

All these people claim how obvious the difference should be but apparently the differences are only perceived under scientific test conditions, not real World conditions.

I love that part too. If I need a special "clean room" lab and a microscope to see these differences, they don't really seem like differences to me.

But I guess if you let go of the fantasy, there's nothing left to tweak or upgrade to, huh? Me, I'll still upgrade anyway, just for kicks.
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post #108 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 03:45 PM
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I think there's one dramatic improvement that could have been made.

Full screens for both images.

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post #109 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, I know that the Avs crowd is a tough one, so I was not surpised by the strong (but fair) skepticism of our findings by some members... In fact I love Avs forum for that reason!
Thanks again for the encouraging words! We will try to make more shoot-outs like this in the future!

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post #110 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

I think there's one dramatic improvement that could have been made.

Full screens for both images.

And how would that have changed the detail in the 1/2 screens that we saw of each?
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post #111 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

Ultimately, as we approach the limits of human perception, you need bigger and bigger jumps in resolution to have a smaller and smaller improvements in PQ.

Jump from SD (c.480 lines) to 720 and that's an increase of 50%. 720 to 1080 is a further 50% increase. Because of the way these things work, a further 50% increase will result in an even smaller improvement.

The implication is that a resolution increase of a further 50% (up to 1620 lines) will see an even smaller improvement than 720 to 1080.

Sorry lads, the games up.

We all want it, don't we. We all want to believe that there's some improvement out there that will 'transform' our viewing experience; some magical, as yet undiscovered/undeveloped system. And yet logic dictates that it's impossible for equally impressive improvements to go on forever.

Well, here we are. Not perfection, but not far off, at least not as far as resolution is concerned. The biggest step forward would be some sort of non-gimmicky 3-D. But on a flat screen, with a flat picture, we're near the edge.

Steve W

It's not a 50% increase.
480 * 150% = 720
BUT
854x480 = 409,920 pixels
1280x720 = 921,600 pixels
That is 2.25 times as many pixels for a 125% increase.

1280x720 = 921,600
1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels
Also 2.25x more for 125% increase.

125% > 50%
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post #112 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 05:17 PM
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all I want to know is did you guys at the gathering like the image on the 11-s1, my wife just signed for mine which just delivered but I wont see it for two days because im out of town
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post #113 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 05:18 PM
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Dude, she's gonna be propped up, bucket of popcorn, watching big movies when you get home!
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post #114 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 05:22 PM
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Watch Your Mouth !!!
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post #115 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 05:27 PM
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Hah, I'm sure she wouldn't spoil the fun of opening your Christmas present! Congrats
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post #116 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 05:36 PM
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Thanks, shes a gem and just got there just in time for the delivery after getting off the plane and ummm navigating the roads a little faster than she should to get home
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post #117 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 05:54 PM
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Takisot, I think you've done a great service for us here on AVS and we thank you for taking the time to share your and your group's contribution, be it lab scientific evidence or not.

I think both sides are right to some extent and I understand both points of view. There certainly is a difference between a 1080p image and a 720p image. There's no debating that mathematically 1080p contains more pixels. The question then becomes at what point or under what circumstances does the higher resolution become noticeable or perceivable to us.

A time not so long ago a 1 mega pixel digital camera was top of the line. When you took a picture and looked at it on your pc at 5x7 it looked pretty sharp and impressive, but when you increased the image size to say 8 x10 it looked aweful and pixelated. In order to get a decent 8x10 you needed a 3MP camera. Today 5 to 7MP cameras are pretty common. A 5x7 or 8 x10 from a 7MP camera and a 10MP camera are virtually indistinguishable until they're both blown up again to a size where there's a noticeable difference. Each generation increase in MP needs an incremental image size increase to be seen or noticed by the common man.

In my opinion, 720p vs 1080p are related much in the same way. Blow up your screen size considerably or sit much closer to the screen, which has the same effect and you'll need the extra resolution of 1080p. So there obviously is a difference and a need for higher resolutions, but it's not that much of a glaring improvement if any if you remain at the same or similar screen size or seating distance.

Alan also makes a very good point that we just haven't seen or tapped into the full potential of good 1080p content yet to make a final judgment.

In my mind's eye, I can see an interesting experiment of measuring at what point the difference between these 2 resolutions can be detected. Take 20 people start them at a seating distance of 20ft away from a 110" screen with both 720p and 1080p(blind test no one knows which is which). Move the group's seating a foot closer each time until more than 60% can identify the 1080p image. Repeat the test again, this time using both images at 720p and then again both at 1080p to eliminate the placebo effect.


Joe
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post #118 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

that we used the following 1920X1080 HD clips in the following order:"HD VIDEO: BenQ demo, Epson Demo, Shakira Tortura mtv video clip, Samsung Demo, (all at 1920?1080i)
HD FILM: Starship Troopers (1920?1080i)

help my feable mind. But was the 1080i scaled to 1080p by the pc? and the other made to 720p by its pc?

Great idea and review. Thanks!
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post #119 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

Quote:


Originally Posted by smithfarmer
That is true but they aren't showing us those screen shots.

The screenshot I originaly posted were from BenQ and the Epson 1080 demo, and they were posted so that you could get an idea of how the shoot-out was performed. If we knew that there would be people ready to make any serious picture judgement from screenshots, we would have paused the camera and make some really good screenshots for the avs folks!

This is AVS, you better believe there would be serious judgements made.

I think it's great what you guys did and I am actually surprised nobody has done this here before. I would ask that the next time you do this to please have the camera centered on the same axis as the pj's since the cameras position off to the side is distorting the top image and could you post shots of material that everyone is very familiar with. Thank you for such an interesting thread.
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post #120 of 643 Old 12-14-2006, 11:00 PM
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Location: Portland, OR
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Great Test. Here's a slightly different take.

Both Marantz units tested are very high end and are known for great optics.

Lower quality optics seem to be part of the trade-off in lower priced projectors.

A Marantz VP-12S4 streets for over $7K today but 1080P projectors can be had for less than $4K.

Can the higher resolution of the lower priced 1080P projectors make up for the superior optics of the much higher priced 720P projectors?

Don't lose sight of the Big Picture
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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