1080p-720p shoot-out in Athens! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 643 Old 12-17-2006, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Finally, three captures without pause that show the high bit rate of the clips used:





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post #182 of 643 Old 12-17-2006, 11:20 AM
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This test is all we've got.

You can guess how it might have been faulty, but you'll never know, and you'll never prove it.

The only way to get anyone to take a different point of view, anyone who's interested in objective opinion at least, is to conduct more tests.

Everyone here who's moaning about this and that - set up your own tests. Don't expect anyone to believe what you may or may not have seen in some dealer-set-up demo, or in your own home (after spending $X, 000, of course).

I'm not having a go at anyone for not being objective - I want to make this clear, I'm not sure that I'd be objective - that's why blind tests are so vital.

All the nay-saying here is worthless. You can say what you like, but only real blind test are worth it.

If no-one's prepared to involve themselves in them, or arrange for them to be set up, than this speaks volumes.

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post #183 of 643 Old 12-17-2006, 01:15 PM
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I understand what you're saying, but this is a slippery slope that no matter what material is used, it's apparently never good enough quality for some people.

I agree, but a strong conclusion needs strong proof. Don't get mw wrong. I think what they did is great, but it does not prove either way that a difference can't be seen between 1080p and 720p

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And so what if your test pattern shows a difference? If you can't see it in an actual movie, does it really matter? That's my point.

But if you can see a difference, how would you know if you can't see it in a movie? Let's say for the sake of argument that 90% of movies will have no differene, 5% will have a minor difference where you need to pay attention in the right place at the right time and the last 5% there is a discernable difference. How do you know that the movies and parts you picked would not fall in the 90%? If they did will it have proved the other 10% of movies don't exist?
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post #184 of 643 Old 12-17-2006, 06:49 PM
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Your post illustrates my point exactly. We could get 95% of the available HD material and test it, and someone would still say, "Yeah, but you didn't test xxxxx, that's where you would see a big difference. Or wait until we have BluRay +, then you'll see it." It's an argument that can't be won.
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post #185 of 643 Old 12-17-2006, 07:33 PM
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It's an argument that can't be won.

but it can, and that is why people are talking about a test pattern. But I can turn the argument on its head. Let's say that someone uses a test pattern to show up the difference you will say "who cares if you can't see it in a movie"

For me the issue is simple. Is there a possibility that even at those distances that I might miss something from 720? The answer is not there by just looking at a few movie clips
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post #186 of 643 Old 12-17-2006, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

It's an argument that can't be won.

Why argue at all? Simply put, the main advantage of 1080P over 720P is that it allows you to sit closer to the screen or use a larger screen keeping your seating at it's current location. If you feel that it's not worth it to you, stay with 720P and be happy with your choice.
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post #187 of 643 Old 12-17-2006, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

Why argue at all? Simply put, the main advantage of 1080P over 720P is that it allows you to sit closer to the screen or use a larger screen keeping your seating at it's current location. If you feel that it's not worth it to you, stay with 720P and be happy with your choice.

Bingo!!


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post #188 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

Why argue at all?

Put simply, this test and this 'argument' are vital.

As far as I'm aware this test is unique. For all sorts of reasons it's likely that 99%+ of us will never get a chance to see a test like this ourselves.

We will be told by manufacturers, dealers, the A/V media, and those with money to burn, that it's worth paying extra for 1080 lines over 720 lines.

It's okay talking about 'your' choice, but the best choice is an informed one. This is information we wouldn't otherwise get.

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post #189 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 02:08 AM
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@Jacksonian: I do not OWN a HDPlayer. That does not mean I have not seen HD
And I have seen HTPCs playback HD material and the image simply wasn't near as good as the Standalone HD-Players are. Especially colors seemed off and the image wasn'T as sharp.

Anyhow. I didn't mean to say the material used was crap. All I am saying is that if you want to test the limits you have to use the best material available. Just because HD broadcasting isn't up to it yet does not mean that the upcoming HD-DVDs and BluRays won't be.

I just think you should always test with the best material available to you. If of course you have no interest in maxing out your pjs potential and can live with your 720p being just as good as a 1080p would with average/poor material, then that's fine of course.
But this does not mean that superior source material and superior source hardware won't show you a significant difference in the future.
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post #190 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 02:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Again, most of the HD material used in our shoot-out was NOT from HD broadcasts but from the stuff used by the companies for exhibiting their HD TVs and projectors (BenQ, Epson, Samsung) and can be found in those little HD boxes you may notice in a A/V store. Believe me those big companies are not fools, when they are trying to sell an HD product they use the best possible crystal clear video image in order to impress the clients. Something like the "Jvc XRCD audiofile sampler" they use to show-off audio systems , if you will..
And, rest assured, that such clear HD material, filmed directly in HD camera, can be more detailed than a film which has been scaned in 2K and resized in 1080.
Finally, if you feed both projectors with an HDDVD with 1080i, then their scaler and deinterlacer come in play, adding an extra variable... Remember we were testing PANELS not projectors..

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post #191 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee View Post

@Jacksonian: I do not OWN a HDPlayer. That does not mean I have not seen HD
And I have seen HTPCs playback HD material and the image simply wasn't near as good as the Standalone HD-Players are. Especially colors seemed off and the image wasn'T as sharp.

That simply proves that you have not seen a properly setup HTPC.

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post #192 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

Why argue at all? Simply put, the main advantage of 1080P over 720P is that it allows you to sit closer to the screen or use a larger screen keeping your seating at it's current location. If you feel that it's not worth it to you, stay with 720P and be happy with your choice.

No one's disputing that you can sit closer to the screen. But you guys are disputing the fact that this group of people couldn't see any difference in detail at a <1.5 screen width viewing distance. It's not about whether it's "worth it to me", it's about what you guys are telling everyone. I have bought both 720p and 1080p and will compare them myself.
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post #193 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by takisot View Post

That simply proves that you have not seen a properly setup HTPC.

That may well be
If yours was perfect then that's fine with me. I have just seen quite a lot of dealers use HTPCs to source HD material and those were pretty poor. So although they are trying to sell expensive stuff, they do not necessarily know what's best for it.
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post #194 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyP View Post

but it can, and that is why people are talking about a test pattern. But I can turn the argument on its head. Let's say that someone uses a test pattern to show up the difference you will say "who cares if you can't see it in a movie"

Very simple, if I can't see it in a movie or other normal material, then there's effectively no difference and I won't waste my money on 1080p unless I'm having an issue with screen door or there is some other advantage on one of those pjs that makes it worth it like contrast, etc...
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post #195 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 05:45 AM
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Very simple, if I can't see it in a movie or other normal material, then there's effectively no difference

If you CAN see it in test material, then there effectively IS a difference. The only question remaining would then be: Does this difference justify the higher price?

This then is something you has to decide for yourself. But then that's the same as deciding whether 30dB is too loud or not. Some might not be able to hear it, most will. Or is 19dB worth extra cash or would 25dB be "quiet" enough?

I am not doubting that nobody could see a difference and from that test the conclusion would be, that most likely the difference is marginal.
However, I do think one should try it and use the best material available, including some test screens. Sometimes you need to know what to focus on. Just like the comparison in another thread Mitsu v. Panasonic.
The Panasonic is sharper with high-frequency and the Mitsu with lower-frequencies. This results in one have sharper backgrounds like forests and the other having sharper faces.

Maybe in the same shoot-out with the same testing material, no one in the room would have noticed this or could have told them apart. Nonetheless the difference is there.
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post #196 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by HT-Naimee View Post

If you CAN see it in test material, then there effectively IS a difference.

That doesn't make any sense. If you can only see it on test wedges and not on normal viewing material, then EFFECTIVELY, there is no difference. Unless of course you like to watch test wedges on Saturday night.
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post #197 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee View Post

That may well be
If yours was perfect then that's fine with me. I have just seen quite a lot of dealers use HTPCs to source HD material and those were pretty poor. So although they are trying to sell expensive stuff, they do not necessarily know what's best for it.

Thank God we are not dealers then...
Before the Projectors category, I used to be Avclub's HTPC moderator, so I am really involved with HTPCs and I am using them as my primary source for years due to the very high quality output that can be achieved IF they are properly set up (which was the case in our shoot-out).

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post #198 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jacksonian View Post

That doesn't make any sense. If you can only see it on test wedges and not on normal viewing material, then EFFECTIVELY, there is no difference. Unless of course you like to watch test wedges on Saturday night.

Sorry, but IMHO you are mistaken.
You define as non-existent things that are there but not relevant.
But that's something different.

You can't say it is there because you can see it in test material and then claim it is non-existent.
It is either visible or not. Whether you need a Test-Disc to see it or not makes no different. It is still a video signal and hence it delivers a signal of similar type as does you movie disc.

So if it is visible, no matter which movie or which demo disc or which calibration disc you use, it is THERE and there IS a difference.

Which then brings me back to what I said:
The question would then not be: is there a difference but how relevant is the difference. And it will become more and more relevant, the closer the movies get to the maximum quality of the media used.
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post #199 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee View Post

Sorry, but IMHO you are mistaken.
You define as non-existent things that are there but not relevant.
But that's something different.

I think the OP said 'effectively' non-existent, which, in this context is correct.

As was pointed out, people don't watch test wedges, they watch films.

I believe this is also the cause of misunderstanding when people refer to scientific experiments on the human eye. Being able to resolve the difference between two pixels, isn't the same as being able to see something in a film.

The 'two pixels' experiments are done with two opposite pixels (black/whaite) and the viewer will have a fixed, relatively long period of time to resolve the difference. They'll be staring at the pixels in quiestion, too.

That's a far cry from resolving the difference between millions of pixels at once, which are almost exclusively not as different as black/white, and which change most frames - that'a a couple of dozen times per second, or 120 times as fast as in a 5 second test.

Finally, I'm surprised that no-one else has noticed a marked problem with the response to this test - the appearence of SDE (screen door effect).

People are discussing whether or not they can see SDE. And yet no-one has yet mentioned the fact that people see SDE more with LCD than with DLP projectors. We have however seen comment of SDE being more noticeable on some 720p projectors than others. It's crystal clear that the appearence, or non-appearence has as much to do with the technology used as it has to do with the resolution of the panel involved.

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post #200 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee View Post

Sorry, but IMHO you are mistaken.
You define as non-existent things that are there but not relevant.
But that's something different.

I disagree. I said if it is not existent on normal viewing material, then it's effectively not existent to me. If you enjoy watching test wedges, then you're going to save a lot of money on buying HD-DVDs and BluRays. You're romancing the specs, have fun.
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post #201 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 07:48 AM
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All I am saying is that I have to make sure for myself.

Just like audio, I am rarely happy with the things others are happy with. And I always need to judge for myself.

Maybe the differences in audio are more noticable than in video. But I could imagine this is also depended on your abilities and how picky you are.

I wouldn't mind buying a 720p and getting the same picture quality as a 1080p. I just doubt this will be the case especially with enhancing quality of the source material.
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post #202 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 08:07 AM
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Sounds like you've been afflicted with both Golden Eye and Golden Ear syndromes. That's a double whammy
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post #203 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 08:19 AM
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takisot,

Despite all the second guessing from people that were not there, I appreciate what your goals were in this comparison test and the results you reported. Thank you for your time and effort.

Personally, I intend to go forward with my 1080P purchase simply because I want to move my seating up to within 1.0-1.2 screen widths. I love to watch movies from within a wide viewing angle. I am currently a little over 1.5 screen widths back and can see screendoor on my current LCD if I look for it.

Happy holidays to all the Greek AVS members from the New Orleans area!

"I'm a fanatic without a cause and I believe in it!" - B. D. G.
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post #204 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 09:30 AM
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That's one of my criteria for my next pj. This test showed that at 1 x screen width the differnce was noticable, and I want to sit closer than my current 1.5 x screen width. THX recommends the back seats of a theater are at 1.5 x so most people at those theaters will be sitting closer. I wonder how many people here who have been to one of those theaters have realised how close they were sitting?

Test patterns will show you if the detail can be resolved, but they're designed in that way (extremes). Movies aren't, but that doesn't mean the resolution can't be resolved, it's just not as obvious in most cases (so more tricky to spot). You have to sit closer for it to become obvious. As Pecker said, they eye relies on contrast differences to distinguish detail/resolution, so some scenes will be more noticable with regards to higher resolution than others. A higher contrast display can sometimes look to have more resolution than a higher resolution display with lower contrast. It's not until you get closer that the actuall resolution becomes obvious.

On another forum a member with a Pearl says he can easily notice the difference between sending it 720 over 1080, and that it's more obvious going back to 1080 from 720 (it looks softer to him IIRC). I wonder what that tells us in respect to this test and what he is doing?

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post #205 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Maddogmc, thank you very much for the kind words & wishes!
I believe that there are a lot of reasons to buy a latest technology 1080p projector, as the close wide viewing angle you mentioned and the 1080p24 support etc Our test was not made to discourage folks from buying 1080 pjs bur rather to observe the differences of the two panels at regular seating positions.
Merry Xmas from Athens!

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post #206 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 09:32 AM
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Hi Takisot,

Have you any thoughts on the above regarding sending 720 and 1080 to a Pearl and how in his case it was noticable?

Gary

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #207 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 09:41 AM
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@JAcksonian: No, just picky....which is very unfortunate and a real strain on my account

@Takisot: I am sorry if it felt like I was attacking your test or calling it insuficient. That was not my intent. It is a great test and I would have loved to be there. This is the closest one can get to a real 720p v. 1080p comparison without having to substract the influence of the pj itself (like Sanyo 720p v Mitsu 1080p etc.).
I would love to do the same test (and at the same time test HTPC v. Standalone ).

Hope you guys do more tests like that!
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post #208 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

Hi Takisot,

Have you any thoughts on the above regarding sending 720 and 1080 to a Pearl and how in his case it was noticable?

Gary

Hi Gary, I haven't read that thread. Do you have a link?

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post #209 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT-Naimee View Post

@Takisot: I am sorry if it felt like I was attacking your test or calling it insuficient. That was not my intent. It is a great test and I would have loved to be there. This is the closest one can get to a real 720p v. 1080p comparison without having to substract the influence of the pj itself (like Sanyo 720p v Mitsu 1080p etc.).
I would love to do the same test (and at the same time test HTPC v. Standalone ).

Hope you guys do more tests like that!

No worries, your posts gave me the opportunity to clarify some things regarding our shoot-out.
Are we are going to do more test like that? You bet

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post #210 of 643 Old 12-18-2006, 09:56 AM
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Next time you do a similar test, let me know. I'll fly over from GErmany and combine it with a diving holiday
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