Firehawk vs. StudioTek 130 and room reflections? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 169 Old 12-22-2006, 11:53 PM
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Another question occurs to me. Now that I have decided ST130 is the way to go for me, I understand Stewart calculates a 10% light loss when using micro-perf.
Since I want to use the new X2 micro-perf, should I use the Ultramatte 150 to get that 10% back instead of the ST130 micro-perf, or will the Ultramatte 150 create other problems I'm unaware of? Stewart describes Ultramatte 150 as having similar screen characteristics as the ST130 but with slightly higher gain.

William, Leckian, Mark, your thoughts?

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post #92 of 169 Old 12-23-2006, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post

Another question occurs to me. Now that I have decided ST130 is the way to go for me, I understand Stewart calculates a 10% light loss when using micro-perf.
Since I want to use the new X2 micro-perf, should I use the Ultramatte 150 to get that 10% back instead of the ST130 micro-perf, or will the Ultramatte 150 create other problems I'm unaware of? Stewart describes Ultramatte 150 as having similar screen characteristics as the ST130 but with slightly higher gain.

William, Leckian, Mark, your thoughts?

If your seating includes significant off-axis viewing you may prefer the DT130.
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post #93 of 169 Old 12-23-2006, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Exactly. If you cannot control the ambient light then get a rear projector.

There is no worse setup than using a dim front projector with a grey screen. A totally lifeless picture results.

I agree with that and would not even consider a Ruby on a 135" FH. My perspective is from having a PJ with brightness to spare.
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post #94 of 169 Old 12-23-2006, 02:28 PM
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I stopped by the local fabric store and got 5'x12' of black fabric. I just put it up on the white ceiling and athough it only covers 5 feet out from the screen, it makes all the difference in the world.

I wonder why I took so long to realize this?

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post #95 of 169 Old 12-23-2006, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

I stopped by the local fabric store and got 5'x12' of black fabric. I just put it up on the white ceiling and athough it only covers 5 feet out from the screen, it makes all the difference in the world.

I wonder why I took so long to realize this?

J.Mike - I went through a similar exercise and documented along the way, including before vs. after ANSI CR improvements. Details here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9257629
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post #96 of 169 Old 12-23-2006, 08:44 PM
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Most of you can not serve on the jury. Too many biases. Some people want a very large screen but do not have total light control. Who the big F is anybody to tell them to get a rear projector?. WTF. Tell em how to maximize the viewing experience. Sun light. get a black screen. FH can significantly improve things. Will it be perfect F no. But can it be made enjoyable. You bet.

The improvement with the 1080p 130 over the old is slight. The fabric is much smoother.Better focus can be obtained but most do not focus to the n minus 1 degree (measure that Ric ) Stewart does not really recommend those with the old 130 buy the new. Te improvement while measurable (with better instrumentation than Ric's(, is too small.

Ric. You pose probably a non answerable without direct comparison question. By stumping the band, you win a hamburger at the McDonalds of your choice. Your FH does a great job of not sending to or receiving reflected light from the side walls. so no benefit of going the black route there. But what happens if you switch to 130. Will you lose CR then. I believe yes. But is higher CR the end all? If it is, then stick with gray It improves blacks over any white screen with a chip or 3 chip bulb projector but with some other costs. If color accuracy is the end all, thengo to white. There is no correct answer but what you choose. Want measurements to give you the answer? Have fun. All you want is perfection? Want to maximize CR? Build a black cave and get a CRT.

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post #97 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Most of you can not serve on the jury. Too many biases. Some people want a very large screen but do not have total light control. Who the big F is anybody to tell them to get a rear projector?. WTF. Tell em how to maximize the viewing experience. Sun light. get a black screen. FH can significantly improve things. Will it be perfect F no. But can it be made enjoyable. You bet.

The improvement with the 1080p 130 over the old is slight. The fabric is much smoother.Better focus can be obtained but most do not focus to the n minus 1 degree (measure that Ric ) Stewart does not really recommend those with the old 130 buy the new. Te improvement while measurable (with better instrumentation than Ric's(, is too small.

Be careful as what you accuse is actually a reflection for which others easily notice. Is there a need for the anger induced swearing? Why not just stick to the facts?

Most front projectors loose a good slice of their PQ just by cracking open a door. There is a even current discussion about limiting the effects of equipment LED/displays in the room as this degrades the black level too. All very true.

Look at the picture of Tryg standing in front the Da-Lite high Power screen to see what a white should look like:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065
Notice how pleasing it is to the eye!
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post #98 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 06:01 AM
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I have a room that would make most of you run away screaming. Very high wood ceiling, structolite hand-finished plaster walls. The Firehawk material really demonstrates its ability to reject ambient light in this environment. I really get an amazing "believable" image in a truly bad environment.

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
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post #99 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 07:26 AM
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Big F = BIG FOOL! WTF = WHAT A FOUL. I do not use profanity in print. One makes comprmises, They cost something re overall PQ. Everyone here I think knows that. Only a big fool tells somebody that if they unwilling to do something (total light control) they should give up on what they want (a large affordable screen). Point out how it hurts, but don't tell em not to play hurt. Help them find a screen that will maximize things. By the way, I m not at all angry. No reason.

Hey Dan. Great screen choice particularly given that light canon and your room.

I wonder how many people such as Ric would ave been able to get their first projector set up (honey can I do this in this room?) if they told her they were painting it black etc. Mamy I think set things up in a multi purposes room which often leads to compromised PQ and sound. Then some time later they experiment, show their honey how a sy little color change or black felt improves things, and get the go ahead. Many of us, like it or not are PWed.

I think my friends Dan and Ric are both PWed (I know I am PWed) but have handled that rather severe handicap well to obtain very good results. Ric continually learns more and more about HT and seeks improvements within the limits of his playing field. I realy appreciate his sharing with us.

I f Ric didn't go the FP route because he coldn't make some change initially . . . .

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post #100 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 07:26 AM
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OMG - I have seen the light (no pun intended). Just by applying a bit of reflection control near the screen - black fabric on ceiling:

I feel like I've got a new projector. IT'S FUNDAMENTAL in the difference - more snap, more 3D, better contrast and detail in dark areas. The fabric cost $24 and it took 15 minutes to put it up using a staple gun.

Looks like I'll end up with a cave after all.

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post #101 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 07:39 AM
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G Street Fabrics in Rockville stocks lots of nice inexpensive felt fabrics.

The screen wall is important too. Obviously untreated it won't wash the screen out but it will help your eyes work better (the screen wall can wash you eyes out). Try making the screen wall except for the viewing area all black too. The side walls as long as you are using FH will make less of a difference. Mike. That blind should be dark. Simple change there. Did the screen samples come yet?

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post #102 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 08:10 AM
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When I make the changeover, I'm going to lobby for covering the entire end wall with black felt. One thing my room doesn't have is a light problem from the ceiling. It is much higher than the screen and a dark, flat finished wood.

It's those plaster walls that cause a problem. But I like living too much to even go there.

Happy Holidays, Mark!

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
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post #103 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 08:52 AM
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Are you making a big Christmass contribution to the person you are going to lobby? The larger the contribution the greater the chance of getting a large project approved.

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post #104 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 09:15 AM
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Yes, she is getting a quite expensive gold and diamond watch for Christmas. We'll see if that moves things forward.

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
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post #105 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 09:56 AM
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This is a great thread - I will most likely be pulling the trigger on my first FP
after CES. This is what I beleve the consensus is so far

1) for daytime viewing, FH much better than ST130.
2) for completely light controlled environment, ST130 slightly better than FH.
3) FH does not have the color fidelity or purity of white that the ST130 in a
darkened environment.

But point 3 seems to be a bit confusing to me, i.e. some seem to state that
the colors will pop much better on the ST130 than the FH in a completely
controlled environment. I can live with slightly off color and even slightly
saturated colors but the more 3D and more shadow detail and more 'pop'
I can get the better.

Does the ST130 really have significantly more pop and 3D effect as the FH in
a light controlled environment?

I don't mind painting my walls black, etc. but I do intentd to watch in the daytime
from time to time. I am only going with a 91 in. screen so that I can maximize light output.

 

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post #106 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce View Post

This is a great thread - I will most likely be pulling the trigger on my first FP
after CES. This is what I beleve the consensus is so far

1) for daytime viewing, FH much better than ST130.
2) for completely light controlled environment, ST130 slightly better than FH.
3) FH does not have the color fidelity or purity of white that the ST130 in a
darkened environment.

But point 3 seems to be a bit confusing to me, i.e. some seem to state that
the colors will pop much better on the ST130 than the FH in a completely
controlled environment. I can live with slightly off color and even slightly
saturated colors but the more 3D and more shadow detail and more 'pop'
I can get the better.

Does the ST130 really have significantly more pop and 3D effect as the FH in
a light controlled environment?

I don't mind painting my walls black, etc. but I do intentd to watch in the daytime
from time to time. I am only going with a 91 in. screen so that I can maximize light output.


I would not say that the ST130 has "significantly" more pop and 3D than the FH in a light controlled environment. But the color fidelity and pop difference is noticeable in side by side comparisons with the FH.

If you don't have a completely light controlled room and plan on viewing during the day, I would definitely recommend the FH over the ST130. The ST130 does wash out rather easily.

What PJ do you think you are going to go with Tony?
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post #107 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by tonydeluce View Post

This is what I beleve the consensus is so far

2) for completely light controlled environment, ST130 slightly better than FH.

I do not believe this is the consensus. In a completely light controlled environment, ST130 is significantly better than FH. My opinion.

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post #108 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

I would not say that the ST130 has "significantly" more pop and 3D than the FH in a light controlled environment. But the color fidelity and pop difference is noticeable in side by side comparisons with the FH.

If you don't have a completely light controlled room and plan on viewing during the day, I would definitely recommend the FH over the ST130. The ST130 does wash out rather easily.

What PJ do you think you are going to go with Tony?

The RS1 looks like a possible choice.. If the new 1080p Sharp offered 24/48/72 fps
it would probably be my number one choice... I would like to see what Sony and
Samsung debut at CES ( assuming they do... )

Your impressions seem to differ from WM's above. I can create a completely
controlled environment but I will want to watch in the daytime from time to
time so as long as there is not a "significant" ( seems I will have to see this
for myelf to really determine the meaning of "significant" :-) difference when I
turn off all the lgihts in the evening, the FH is the one for me...

 

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post #109 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post

I do not believe this is the consensus. In a completely light controlled environment, ST130 is significantly better than FH. My opinion.

Thanks WM,

would you state that the ST130 has a significantly more 3D look,
significantly more shadow detail and significantly more 'pop' than the FH in a light
controlled environment? As I stated, I could live with a bit less color accuracy
and even slightly more saturated colors ( than technically accurate ) as long
as I get the above...

 

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post #110 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce View Post


Your impressions seem to differ from WM's above.

Actually our impressions are pretty similar, other than use of the term "significant". Like I said, there is definitely a noticeable difference when comparing side by side. What constitutes "signficant" is a matter of opinion.
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post #111 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Actually our impressions are pretty similar, other than use of the term "significant". Like I said, there is definitely a noticeable difference when comparing side by side. What constitutes "signficant" is a matter of opinion.

Thanks again Rob, and yes I would expect there to be a difference. What
I am trying to understand is exactly what that difference is. If it is color
accuracy, I can certainly live with a little less of that, i.e. if I never saw a
particular movie before I don't really know exactly what color was intended afterall :-)

 

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post #112 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 06:43 PM
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Regardless of the vote, ST130 is SIGNIFICANTLY better than FH when you have total light control and dark non reflective walls, ceiling, and floor. Given less than this, opinions can vary with rational justification (rather than that's what I have and you should have it too) on which is preferable depending on what is most important to you.

I think WM might agree woth me on this one.

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post #113 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Regardless of the vote, ST130 is SIGNIFICANTLY better than FH when you have total light control and dark non reflective walls, ceiling, and floor. Given less than this, opinions can vary with rational justification (rather than that's what I have and you should have it too) on which is preferable depending on what is most important to you.

I think WM might agree woth me on this one.

significantly better in what way? that is what I am trying to understand... black level? shadow detail? color accuracy?

 

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post #114 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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J.Mike - can you see the staples (or the sheen of light coming off of them) during very bright scenes?
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post #115 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 11:28 PM
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Tony. PM me with your address. I will have page size samples of the new FH and the new 130 sent to you. Within the limits of your viewing environment, you can make your own judgements. Clearly color accuracy. Black levels will depend on what projector you use. With a 15000 ANSI contrast of the coming JVC, for example, that advantage of FH may be a non factor. Shadow detail, yes, but I couldn't quantify. But without total light control, my balance would go to FH. In my HT, I do have total light control, and black non reflective surfaces. So I use the old 130.

Yor choice should not be measurement based. All screens are compromises. You gotta do what looks best to you.

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post #116 of 169 Old 12-24-2006, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Tony. PM me with your address. I will have page size samples of the new FH and the new 130 sent to you. Within the limits of your viewing environment, you can make your own judgements. Clearly color accuracy. Black levels will depend on what projector you use. With a 15000 ANSI contrast of the coming JVC, for example, that advantage of FH may be a non factor. Shadow detail, yes, but I couldn't quantify. But without total light control, my balance would go to FH. In my HT, I do have total light control, and black non reflective surfaces. So I use the old 130.

Yor choice should not be measurement based. All screens are compromises. You gotta do what looks best to you.

That may be the most balanced post I have seen you make in quite some time Mark!
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post #117 of 169 Old 12-25-2006, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Tony. PM me with your address. I will have page size samples of the new FH and the new 130 sent to you. Within the limits of your viewing environment, you can make your own judgements. Clearly color accuracy. Black levels will depend on what projector you use. With a 15000 ANSI contrast of the coming JVC, for example, that advantage of FH may be a non factor. Shadow detail, yes, but I couldn't quantify. But without total light control, my balance would go to FH. In my HT, I do have total light control, and black non reflective surfaces. So I use the old 130.

Yor choice should not be measurement based. All screens are compromises. You gotta do what looks best to you.

Thanks Mark - I appreciate it!

Do you believe a black ceiling, walls, and carpet are important for the FH?

If so, how much ( in inches ) of the black surroundings are necessary to obtain the benefit say for a 91 in. diagonal FH screen?

 

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post #118 of 169 Old 12-25-2006, 01:33 AM
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Tony. Go back and reread the earler long post I made. A dark cave can only improve things no matter wht screen material you ave. with FH the side wals are far less important. the floor and ceiling depend on how far away.

Rob. I can't be encouraged. I have said nothing different here but if you think I have, fine. I am no longer a politial speech writer. There is no prize for being balanced. The only prize is for being right. One wins so few prizes.

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post #119 of 169 Old 12-25-2006, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce View Post

Thanks Mark - I appreciate it!

Do you believe a black ceiling, walls, and carpet are important for the FH?

If so, how much ( in inches ) of the black surroundings are necessary to obtain the benefit say for a 91 in. diagonal FH screen?

I found that for my 106" diag Firehawk coverage at 4 feet (from the screen) across the ceiling got my 95% of the result. I could have covered another 2 feet more to pick up a tad bit more for the lower 25% of the screen only but to find a right balance with aesthetics / WAF I only went to 4 feet.

You can read all about this project and how it improved my ANSI CR here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9002583
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post #120 of 169 Old 12-25-2006, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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All else being equal, is there a significant difference in brightness uniformity with the ST130 vs. the FH? And if so is this different really noticeable with program material?
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