JVC RS1 review!!! (of sorts) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC6 View Post

for example the Marantz 11s1 has no real weakness(let's forget about rainbow for a minute). it look good with any material you throw at it.

Well, except for its subpar brightness (300-500 lumens).
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post #182 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 06:39 PM
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a Marantz 11s1 can make Pearl/Ruby look flat on some material..

I certainly believe you, but I haven't seen the Marantz, the Sharp, or the RS-1, so if any/all of these are able to make the Ruby look flat in comparison, then bring 'em on, as I have a hard time even imaging what a more 3D image might look like. But I'd sure like to find out!
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post #183 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 06:43 PM
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And (Sorry, I have to say it) Rainbows. Since this is the biggest problem with 1-chip DLP IMHO, you simply cant forget it. Because of this, it really does not matter how good the Marantz (or any current 1-chip for that matter) looks for those who cant live with the RBE.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #184 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

And (Sorry, I have to say it) Rainbows. Since this is the biggest problem with 1-chip DLP IMHO, you simply cant forget it. Because of this, it really does not matter how good the Marantz (or any current 1-chip for that matter) looks for those who cant live with the RBE.


Well, it does have the 6x color wheel, but that's not my point. I am not trying to defend DLPS, I am just trying to show how important to have all the factors cover(on/off, ANSI, MTF and lens). I just hope the combination of better lens and better MTF will overcome its relative short coming in ANSI CR. I have owned/own all the Sony SXRDs and image definition has always been their beiggest weakness.
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post #185 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

HT labs measurements:
Panny 700 ANSI = 161:1 (on/off = 711:1)
Sony HS51 ANSI = 162:1 (on/off = 2567:1)

"...in the market right now..."
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post #186 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC6 View Post

Well, it does have the 6x color wheel, but that's not my point. I am not trying to defend DLPS, I am just trying to show how important to have all the factors cover(on/off, ANSI, MTF and lens). I just hope the combination of better lens and better MTF will overcome its relative short coming in ANSI CR. I have owned/own all the Sony SXRDs and image definition has always been their beiggest weakness.

Couldn't agree more
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post #187 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

The reviewer also checked the values on a Pearl with the same equipment and setup and this is what he obtained:

Iris 1: 15500

This is with 0-255 PC level test signals and with Brightness set to 60 and Contrast to 80.

Using 16-235 video levels with Brightness set to 50 (default), he measured on/off CR at 11,500 in Iris 1 mode which is similar to what Greg reported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

So what have we learned here?

That's something's wrong (assuming both of these measurements were taken with the same Iris 1 mode). This goes directly to my point earlier. This person (who wishes to remain anonymous ????) measured Pearl contrast as 15,500:1 with PC levels, contrast at x, brightness at y .... and 11,500:1 with video levels and brightness at z ... So which is it? 11,500:1 or 15,500:1? Why didn't he just turn up the contrast and RGB gains and measure 20,000:1? The results indicate the methodology doesn't make any sense. Something is very wrong here!

What matters is the contrast ratio with a flat grayscale and a particular dE (you pick it - 1 dE, 2 dE, 3 dE ...) at the maximum white level. It can't be both 15,500 and 11,500. It is completely irrelevant what the Brightness and Contrast were numerically set at, or whether or not he used video levels or PC levels, if he properly calibrated the projector and then measured the contrast ratio.

Greg Rogers
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post #188 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 08:40 PM
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I saw the 11s1 this weekend on a Firehawk and I actually thought it was too bright. The gentleman turned the lights on afterwards... including ones about 3' away from the screen (pointed away)... and I actually thought the image looked better. The contrast obviously wasn't as good, but there wasn't any fatigue. I didn't see any rainbows, either, which was surprising. There's no way I'd give up the RS1 for it, but it was a nice PJ anyways.

Krister
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post #189 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

You are definitely not seeing the same Ruby that I am. My Ruby has incredible depth and 3D effect. My hopes are that the RS-1 will just have more of what I already like in the Ruby...

Bob, let me say this: I know many people here at AVS, including a calibrator who I have met several times, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for in terms of knowledge when it comes to what constitutes excellent picture quality, who either own a Pearl or Ruby, or have spent time calibrating them.

I have made posts here, and spoken with people in person regarding the Pearl and Ruby, and it does seem that I am in a minority in thinking that they look flat, lacking punch, depth and 3 dimensionality. This, despite the fact that I was informed that the Ruby I saw was ISF calibrated.

I will assume that the Sony SXRD pjs that I saw could have been made to look much better. But, that said, given what I saw, they still lacked depth, punch and three dimensionality. And this was not at all subtle. I am talking about scenes with average brightness.

So, I hope that the two I saw were anomalies, and they are actually capable of delivering an image with much more depth and intrascene contrast, without looking "flat". I personally would not buy one based on what I saw, but realize I have only seen the Pearl and Ruby once for about 45 minutes each. But I am completely open minded about the issue, and would really like to see one that was well set up. Ironically, I am seriously considering the purchase of a Sony 60" SXRD set for our family room over the 1080p DLP sets, as I don't find the same issue with depth in the RPTV sets.

I am hoping that the native contrast ratio and other specs of the JVC will result in a big improvement in the depth of the image.
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post #190 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC6 View Post

I think that depends on the material he's watching and what he's compare it to. a Marantz 11s1 can make Pearl/Ruby look flat on some material..

since the depth/3d is determent by on/off CR, Ansi CR, lens quality, MTF. What would be the minimum threshold of ANSI CR? Is 260-280 enough?

for example the Marantz 11s1 has no real weakness(let's forget about rainbow for a minute). it look good with any material you throw at it. As good as the Ruby/Pearl are, some material just look flat on them. would the better MTF and lens of the RS1 enough to overcome the low ANSI CR? I hope so.

Me too, as that's pretty much what I am hanging my hat on.
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post #191 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

HT labs measurements:
Panny 700 ANSI = 161:1 (on/off = 711:1)
Sony HS51 ANSI = 162:1 (on/off = 2567:1)

don't waste time, he just love lcd like projectorcentral
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post #192 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post

How do you accomplish this if the projector only offers 1 or 2 sets of adjustments? I can't speak for this reviewer, but I'm still waiting for info from JVC on how to access the LUTs on the HD1/RS1. Without that, unless the factory calibration is already flat, it seems to me that you don't have enough adjustments to flatten out the grayscale.

I'm not sure I understand the question and which sets of adjustments you are referring to. WRT the Ruby I just went into service mode and used the RGB gains and RGB offsets to dial it in. I sure hope the RS1 offers suitable adjustments...
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post #193 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 09:34 PM
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It is completely irrelevant what the Brightness and Contrast were numerically set at, or whether or not he used video levels or PC levels, if he properly calibrated the projector and then measured the contrast ratio.

I didn't think that that had made much sense, but I had just chalked it up to my lack of experience and knowledge. Thanks for clearing that up, Greg.
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post #194 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 09:45 PM
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HT labs measurements:
Panny 700 ANSI = 161:1 (on/off = 711:1)
Sony HS51 ANSI = 162:1 (on/off = 2567:1)

In the latest WSR Bill Cushman reported the Sanyo Z5's modified ANSI at 290:1, higher than either the RS-1 or the Pearl/Ruby (or at least as reported so far). Although both my Z5 and Ruby are very well calibrated, I can assure you that the Z5 in no way has the depth of image that I see on my Ruby. ANSI isn't everything.

Sheesh, all of this talk and speculation about the RS-1 is wearing me out. I think I'll just wait until mine arrives and see it for myself...
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post #195 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I'm not sure I understand the question and which sets of adjustments you are referring to. WRT the Ruby I just went into service mode and used the RGB gains and RGB offsets to dial it in. I sure hope the RS1 offers suitable adjustments...

NO, that's the point, it does not have the same adjustments. The Sony has both low level and high level adjustments for RGB - Gain and Bias (not Offset). The JVC does not have a Bias adjustment, never has. It's a different design. To flatten out the grayscale you need access to the LUTs. Instead of 2 adjustment points you have 1024 of them. While it does take a bit more to adjust it, I think it's a much better system.

Incidentally, your Ruby also has a set of LUTs, and the grayscale can be made much flatter than what you can accomplish with those two adjustments. Not something you can get at from service mode though.

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post #196 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post

To flatten out the grayscale you need access to the LUTs. Instead of 2 adjustment points you have 1024 of them. While it does take a bit more to adjust it, I think it's a much better system.

Are the LUTs available in the service menu of the RS1?
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post #197 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post


Sheesh, all of this talk and speculation about the RS-1 is wearing me out. I think I'll just wait until mine arrives and see it for myself...

That may be the best post regarding the RS1 I have read in weeks!
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post #198 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

Are the LUTs available in the service menu of the RS1?

No. In the past JVC has provided end user software for modifying 1 set of LUTs (there are 4). No indication if they will do this for this projector or not yet. If I can sort it out, I may provide an end user tool similar to the one I did for the Ruby (and eventually Pearl).

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post #199 of 451 Old 12-26-2006, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wm View Post

No. In the past JVC has provided end user software for modifying 1 set of LUTs (there are 4). No indication if they will do this for this projector or not yet. If I can sort it out, I may provide an end user tool similar to the one I did for the Ruby (and eventually Pearl).

Is this the gamma tool that is available for the HD2K and HD10K?
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post #200 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Is this the gamma tool that is available for the HD2K and HD10K?

JVC's ? Yes.

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post #201 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wm View Post

JVC's ? Yes.

Wm, any word on if JVC will offer a gamma tool with the RS1 too?
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post #202 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 03:10 AM
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Sim C3X Lite in a German Heimkino Magazin measurements OnOf 5000:1 Ansi 221:1
I think the Ansi isnt so important. In my Blackhole Homecinema i have not more than 140:1 with my Panasonic PT-AX100 , it was in a German Magazin Audiovision measured with Ansi 300:1 the Pearl in the same Magazin was Ansi 350:1

I am still waiting to be a JVC RS1 owner
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post #203 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

I just despise the look of CRT - and that includes "high end" 9" FP units

What exactly do you despise about the look of CRT?
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post #204 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Others might beg to differ that a PJ with 10:000:1 has "visibly grey blacks" and find that a bit of an exaggeration.

It certainly depends on what you watch and in what room with what ambient light. A 10000:1 projector when watched in a dark cave with zero ambient light and watching your average feature film will show contrast limitations in the form of grayish blacks and a veil/milky appearance in some scenes. Depending on the film that might be 10% or 2% of all shots. If you watch sports it's usually 0%. If you watch "Dark City" it might be > 10%. Can everybody see the veil in a black cave? With normal vision, absolutely, if you have the 50000:1 or 100000:1 alternative a click away for comparison. Without comparison, who knows. Some people see rainbows on DLPs, some don't. Some people see 2:3 pulldown judder, some don't. Some can learn to see it. Some don't (want to).
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post #205 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC6 View Post

for example the Marantz 11s1 has no real weakness(let's forget about rainbow for a minute). it look good with any material you throw at it. As good as the Ruby/Pearl are, some material just look flat on them. would the better MTF and lens of the RS1 enough to overcome the low ANSI CR? I hope so.

The Marantz (or any other projector with that kind of On-Off) looks equally flat compared to a CRT as soon as his superior ANSI is crashing into the black level and intra picture contrast is going down. How often that happens depends on what you watch.
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post #206 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

don't waste time, he just love lcd like projectorcentral

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post #207 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Ironically, I am seriously considering the purchase of a Sony 60" SXRD set for our family room over the 1080p DLP sets, as I don't find the same issue with depth in the RPTV sets.

I can tell you my Pearl has more depth then even the 60" XBR2. I own the pearl. my Friend owns the XBR2. I am the one that has done basic calibrations on both. And I was not trying to make mine look better. They are very close, but the pearl has more depth.
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post #208 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by gregr View Post

That's something's wrong (assuming both of these measurements were taken with the same Iris 1 mode). This goes directly to my point earlier. This person (who wishes to remain anonymous ????) measured Pearl contrast as 15,500:1 with PC levels, contrast at x, brightness at y .... and 11,500:1 with video levels and brightness at z ... So which is it? 11,500:1 or 15,500:1? Why didn't he just turn up the contrast and RGB gains and measure 20,000:1? The results indicate the methodology doesn't make any sense. Something is very wrong here!

What matters is the contrast ratio with a flat grayscale and a particular dE (you pick it - 1 dE, 2 dE, 3 dE ...) at the maximum white level. It can't be both 15,500 and 11,500. It is completely irrelevant what the Brightness and Contrast were numerically set at, or whether or not he used video levels or PC levels, if he properly calibrated the projector and then measured the contrast ratio.

Yes this thread is certainly not a highlight for AVS forum. But it is proof of a sign of desperation and also that ulterior motives are at work. Is this a dirty political campaign?

To be consistent, those of you who always point to Greg as the final word should go on the attack to discredit this anonymous member who as Greg says "doesn't make any sense". So that there is no misunderstanding: do you read me Houston and Bob?
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post #209 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post

NO, that's the point, it does not have the same adjustments. The Sony has both low level and high level adjustments for RGB - Gain and Bias (not Offset). The JVC does not have a Bias adjustment, never has. It's a different design. To flatten out the grayscale you need access to the LUTs. Instead of 2 adjustment points you have 1024 of them. While it does take a bit more to adjust it, I think it's a much better system.

Incidentally, your Ruby also has a set of LUTs, and the grayscale can be made much flatter than what you can accomplish with those two adjustments. Not something you can get at from service mode though.

Am I correct that Offset and Bias controls are synonymous? If so it sure looks like the RS1 has this offset/bias adjustment in the user menus. See this screen shot from cine4home's preview:



Does this info mean that JVC has now offered these types of controls unlike years past? Or am I misinterpreting what I am seeing here?
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post #210 of 451 Old 12-27-2006, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wm View Post

No. In the past JVC has provided end user software for modifying 1 set of LUTs (there are 4). No indication if they will do this for this projector or not yet. If I can sort it out, I may provide an end user tool similar to the one I did for the Ruby (and eventually Pearl).

Thanks. Does this mean that if JVC doesn't provide this software you may do so - or that if they do not you will be unable to do so? I recall some special Ruby software that you have but I am not familiar with it. Where can I learn more about it and its pricing? I'm not interested in it for the Ruby but rather as a reference point to get a feel for what you may be able to offer for the RS1.

Am I correct to assume the idea behind using the LUT is that the 1024 adjustments are spread out among the 0-100 IRE range (say providing about 100 adjustments for each 10 IRE step or about 10 for each single IRE?) that enables you to change the RGB levels individually at each step without affecting those levels at other steps?
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