1080P--More Lumens!...and Lense Shift Please! - AVS Forum

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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

chuckken's Avatar chuckken
12:20 PM Liked: 10
post #1 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 847
Joined: Mar 2004
Thought I would post a thread dedicated to 1080P and more lumens and more lense shift...I know I am not alone in wanting these. I cannot understand why more Projector manufacturers are not giving lense shift and more lumens. I feel the future of home theater is going in this direction...I'd like to hear other folks thoughts on this???...
deandob's Avatar deandob
02:15 PM Liked: 10
post #2 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 821
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It is rather unfortunate that with higher resolution projectors and sources that it is now practical to have larger screen sizes, however the lack of lumens now holds us back. The previous generation of 720p projectors had lumens between 1000 and 1500 lumens which would throw a bright large picture, but the current 1080p projectors usually do 300 - 800 which necessitates a smaller screen or a more reflective screen (and associated artifacts).

The reason for the dimmer projectors is not to annoy consumers, but to increase the contrast ratio which in the current generation projectors is approaching CRT levels, with 1080 resolution and contrast ratio the main marketing messages for product positioning, not lumens. I'm hoping that the next generation of 1080 projectors will go back to lumens as the marketing message so the engineering will concentrate on increasing brightness but not at the expense of lumens. Unfortunately it is difficult to have both lumens and contrast.

There is always the expensive 3 chip DLP projectors for brightness but their contrast ratios are not as good as the latest generation sub $10K projectors. I currently have a Canon SX50 which does 2500 lumens on a 12 foot wide (not diagonal!) screen and am pleased with the results. I'd like more contrast but not at the expense of a dimmer picture, as I like bright vibrant colors that 'pop' out of a bright screen. So until there is a 1080 projector with 1500 lumens or more with decent contrast for less than $10K my money stays in my wallet.

Oh, lens shift would be great too....
sb1's Avatar sb1
02:41 PM Liked: 153
post #3 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 7,334
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My problem with having to run the picture smaller is, as the size decreases you are losing the benefit of 1080p in the first place. I thought the whole idea was to gain the ability to see less pixels, and see greater detail, than a 720p projector at the same screen size. I can accomplish this by reducing the size of my current screen. No doubt this will change, possibly in the near future. Once again, early adopters pay the price. No big deal. It always gets better.
chuckken's Avatar chuckken
04:33 PM Liked: 10
post #4 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 847
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I have a basement, but it is not really my favorite place to watch movies...Alot of folks don't have basements or don't want a theater down there, so having more lumens and excellent lense shift is a must for folks installing in great rooms or living rooms/bedrooms...I myself could never go back to any other display after being spoiled with FP...It is the future...
DaveMoi's Avatar DaveMoi
04:37 PM Liked: 10
post #5 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 128
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If I look at the specs, the Benq W10000 generates 1200 ansi lumens. The PE8720 which is the 720p version is only rated 1000 ansi lumens. I have the PE8720 in my living room projecting to a 115" (diagonal) 1.5 gain screen. The brightness that is produced is just fine, certainly if we keep in mind that I have the iris 3/4 closed. According to the specs the W10000 should at least deliver the same results, and has Lens Shift! So I do think there are 1080p projectors that answer your desire
chuckken's Avatar chuckken
04:57 PM Liked: 10
post #6 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMoi View Post

If I look at the specs, the Benq W10000 generates 1200 ansi lumens. The PE8720 which is the 720p version is only rated 1000 ansi lumens. I have the PE8720 in my living room projecting to a 115" (diagonal) 1.5 gain screen. The brightness that is produced is just fine, certainly if we keep in mind that I have the iris 3/4 closed. According to the specs the W10000 should at least deliver the same results, and has Lens Shift! So I do think there are 1080p projectors that answer your desire

The Benq W10000 projector has very little room for placement...Many were shocked at how little range the zoom provides. That may have a lot to do with the anamorphic lens option. Buyer beware; this one has to be installed right but you do still have plenty of play for vertical lens tilt if you need that. Not enough throw for my application.
CraigN's Avatar CraigN
05:03 PM Liked: 10
post #7 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 278
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I have a CIH setup with a 2.35 screen. I use a high lumen 1280 x 720 PJ the Panasonic AX-100. The results are fantastic. The use of a horizontal expansion lens in itself makes pixelation less visible.
I will not move to a 1920 x 1080 PJ until the lumens are up on current models.

But I am watching and waiting keenly. The new JVC could tempt me however
fugueness's Avatar fugueness
05:09 PM Liked: 11
post #8 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckken View Post

The Benq W10000 projector has very little room for placement...Many were shocked at how little range the zoom provides. That may have a lot to do with the anamorphic lens option. Buyer beware; this one has to be installed right but you do still have plenty of play for vertical lens tilt if you need that. Not enough throw for my application.

Can you be more specific about this? Would I be able to mount this at a 15' throw onto a 123" screen?
chuckken's Avatar chuckken
05:15 PM Liked: 10
post #9 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Can you be more specific about this? Would I be able to mount this at a 15' throw onto a 123" screen?

No...at 15 ft you would only have about an 85" screen.
fugueness's Avatar fugueness
05:28 PM Liked: 11
post #10 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckken View Post

No...at 15 ft you would only have about an 85" screen.

Actually, I just checked BenQ's site here: http://benq.us/products/Projector/?product=613#

And for a 123" screen, you can mount it anywhere from 13.12' to 26.24'
That seems pretty flexible to me.
chuckken's Avatar chuckken
05:45 PM Liked: 10
post #11 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Actually, I just checked BenQ's site here: http://benq.us/products/Projector/?product=613#

And for a 123" screen, you can mount it anywhere from 13.12' to 26.24'
That seems pretty flexible to me.

No, I just went there and it says 100@4m (100" @ 13.12') ... ....trust me, this projector has an extremely short throw...

At projector Central on the Projection Calculator Pro it says 85" for a 15 ft throw...
fugueness's Avatar fugueness
05:59 PM Liked: 11
post #12 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckken View Post

No, I just went there and it says 100@4m (100" @ 13.12') ... ....trust me, this projector has an extremely short throw...

At projector Central on the Projection Calculator Pro it says 85" for a 15 ft throw...

That's the throw ratio. It has a 1.15:1 zoom.
On BenQ's site,
Click on the Projection Calculator link, Switch the model to Home Projector, 16:9 aspect for screen. At 123" the throw distance is 16.14'. Not bad.
chuckken's Avatar chuckken
08:55 PM Liked: 10
post #13 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

That's the throw ratio. It has a 1.15:1 zoom.
On BenQ's site,
Click on the Projection Calculator link, Switch the model to Home Projector, 16:9 aspect for screen. At 123" the throw distance is 16.14'. Not bad.

I think this is in error. A local calibrator in my area just bought one of these for an install he is doing and he said he was really shocked at how little range the zoom provided...Be aware and make sure. These projector calculators are not carved in stone...
Bob Sorel's Avatar Bob Sorel
09:33 PM Liked: 117
post #14 of 21
01-01-2007 | Posts: 8,465
Joined: Jan 2000
Beware of anything you read on Projector Central! As bad as their reviews are, their calculators are even worse. I would definitely trust the manufacturer's info before believing ANYTHING I read on Projector Central.
flint350's Avatar flint350
11:08 AM Liked: 29
post #15 of 21
01-02-2007 | Posts: 2,164
Joined: Nov 2002
Don't they base (or claim to base) their calculators on Manufacturer's specs? If so, it's at least a place for a decent idea, keeping in mind the calibrated spec will be about 35-50% less at a minimum.
Bob Sorel's Avatar Bob Sorel
12:08 PM Liked: 117
post #16 of 21
01-02-2007 | Posts: 8,465
Joined: Jan 2000
Quote:


Don't they base (or claim to base) their calculators on Manufacturer's specs?

You would think so, wouldn't you?

I don't remember which calculator it was, but someone posted a link to a calculator that had the wrong basic formula applied for figuring ftLs, so when you entered your numbers the calculator very consistently gave you an incorrect answer. I sure hope nobody made purchase decisions based on wrong answers...
DaveMoi's Avatar DaveMoi
11:11 AM Liked: 10
post #17 of 21
01-03-2007 | Posts: 128
Joined: Aug 2005
Going to the BenQ calculator site I calculated the possibilities for the distance my current projector is mounted, which is 5m (16.4'). This gives the possibility of a screen size between 276.34cm (108.70") and 317.79cm (125") diagional for the W10000 and between 235.19cm (92.58") and 317.79cm (124.99") diagional for the PE8720.

So if you have a big enough screen you should be ok...
Rob Tomlin's Avatar Rob Tomlin
11:22 AM Liked: 11
post #18 of 21
01-03-2007 | Posts: 13,752
Joined: Jul 2002
I agree that we need more lumens from the new 1080p projectors. I would seriously consider the Sharp 20k for my 123" D Screen but for the low lumens output in high contrast mode at D65.
Mark_H's Avatar Mark_H
12:06 PM Liked: 16
post #19 of 21
01-03-2007 | Posts: 1,933
Joined: Aug 2001
Projection Design offers 1080p projectors with 2500-3000 lumens and lens shift...


Mark
deandob's Avatar deandob
02:49 PM Liked: 10
post #20 of 21
01-03-2007 | Posts: 821
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Mark,

Nice machine. Reasonable contrast with good lumens output. It would be good to have a couple of manufacturers building machines to these specs for a bit of competition

Now if it was only 3 chip DLP and half the cost....
DanHouck's Avatar DanHouck
03:49 PM Liked: 10
post #21 of 21
01-03-2007 | Posts: 4,098
Joined: Sep 2000
I also have an SX50 and am very pleased with the combination of it on a Firehawk. I run it strictly on low lamp and I'd guess the lumens of the lamp are in the 1000 range given the age of my lamp.

Any projector that can only managed 4-500 lumens out of the box is either going to be dim for much of the bulb's normal life or the owner is going to be spending a lot of money replacing lamps with 500 hours or less on them.

I'm very interested in this new JVC as well, looking forward to it being thoroughly dissected by this group. JVC probably isn't however.

Right now, I'm trying to find a suitable replacement for my stone age video processor.
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