IMO: The JVC RS-1 is the Best 1080P at CES - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

No 3 panels can ever be aligned PERFECTLY, so a single panel design will always be sharper. How much sharper? That part is debatable...

Right & Somewhat Wrong..


"No 3 panels can ever be aligned PERFECTLY"... <-------- Right

"so a single panel design will always be sharper." <------------ Somewhat Wrong


If a 3 panel design is done well to very well the human "Eye" CANNOT detect the difference.

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post #62 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I don't think you quoted him quite right. I think what he said was more along the lines of (and I am NOT quoting him verbatim):


That statement, though close to yours, is absolutely correct. No 3 panels can ever be aligned PERFECTLY, so a single panel design will always be sharper. How much sharper? That part is debatable...

Exactly, you will experience the same convergence issues with 3 DLP than you get with 3 LCOS. The sharpness of a single chip DLP such as the Projection design 1080p single chip DLP is just amazing. Meanwhile, there is price to pay for this sharpness which is dithering.
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post #63 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

Right & Somewhat Wrong..


"No 3 panels can ever be aligned PERFECTLY"... <-------- Right

"so a single panel design will always be sharper." <------------ Somewhat Wrong


If a 3 panel design is done well to very well the human "Eye" CANNOT detect the difference.

It is not just the design but also the manufacturing tolerance versus manufacturing cost. I could easily detect them on the Pearl and the Ruby.
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post #64 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:10 AM
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bluedevils-

My post was referring to these two comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit07
So are there any advantages to the Pearl or is the JVC better in all regards? Has anyone seen both and prefer the Pearl?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd
The street pricing of the Pearl will be a quite a bit lower than what the RS1 will be available at.

I don't want to break forum rules about pricing. Give a call to AVS - that's where I do all of my projector business. And as not to break any rules I'll just give %'s... the pre-order price of the Sony Pearl that I had for about two weeks (before deciding to wait and see how things shook out) was 11% less than the pre-order price for the RS1 (which I have ordered...much like everyone else ). Now I'm not sure if those deals are all still around - just give AVS a call.
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post #65 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:29 AM
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Yeah, did anyone bother taking pics of the projector? The one in particular I want to see is the JVC DLA-RS1.

Thanks.
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post #66 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:36 AM
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Quote:


"An 3-chip Lcos design will NEVER be remotely as sharp as a 1-chip DLP with good optics - simple physics."

I don't doubt that the statements by The Lion and others are true regarding this, but...after seeing these projectors I would forward two things; one objective, and one subjective. First, I think that the difference in resolution between that delivered by panel alignment at the level that is demonstrated by JVC with the RS1/HD-1 at CES and single panel DMD may be moot based on 20/20 visual acuity and the screen sizes in question. (edit: I see Chris just made the same point above). At IMAX size/subtended viewing angles, maybe it is a significant factor. But the differences are so minute at to render them inconsequential unless you have incredible vision...which may be a curse in this case, a blessing if you are a fighter pilot. Yesterday, we could find zero panel misalignment on the RS1 with our MK II eyeballs at any distance from the screen.

Secondly, as a cinematographer I have sat in countless screening rooms watching projected 35mm dailies, and supervised equal quantities of telecine transfers and post of commercials that I photographed on film and HD. From my experience in making and evaluating pictures, I am comfortable passing my opinion that what I saw yesterday achieved resolution and picture quality that was not only superb, but intensely revealing. You will see every nuance that the cinematographer intended (via selective focus, lighting, softening filters, etc) and organic artifacts as I mentioned earlier. That said, it has just enough of an "analog" look to it to not be fatiguing. It's not perceivably "softer." It may appear less processed, but that's a good thing.

Quote:


Screenshots. PLEASE!

I decided not to take them. There is no way the the RS1 didn't exceed the capabilities of a digital screen shot done on the fly at CES. Sorry. The JVC product shot on their site is superior to anything we could have taken in that hotel room.
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post #67 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:40 AM
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Screenshots. PLEASE!
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post #68 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:45 AM
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Cam Man,

Your observations and review are much appreciated. Thank You.
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post #69 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I got the vibe that the HD-1 was targeted to places like BB and CC, but I think that is what CES is about; they have to sell it to these retailers, and I got no vibe that this was a done deal with respect to the HD-1 (not that I would hear anything like this). The RS1 has a different marketing path, and there was plenty of meeting going on to find strong commitments for wholesale purchases. Occasionally, I had to leave the room so that such discussions could be made in private.

Technically, the final differences will be minimal it appears, but there is room for some uncertainty about the final bells and whistles. JVC is definately looking into a "calibration feature (application?)." I didn't press for more info, as it seemed the idea was not fully developed yet. I did infer that this was a feature that would only be available or could only be used with the RS1. Could this be a venture with William Phelps? Don't know. They were quite emphatic that the RS1 would be a product receiving a lot more care than the HD-1...or at least that is what I inferred.

I don't think the price will be much different. They specifically told me that they have gotten burned by doing this in the past, and don't want it to happen again. That said, I think the HD-1 might be a reasonable choice for pure DIYers that do not want significant tech or installation support from the seller, and can live with the one year warranty. For stronger enthusiasts, DIYers who need/want defintive, proactive design and installation support, then the RS1 is the better choice it would seem.


If this is true, then it is different than what has been reported before. The RS1 is supposed to be the US version while the HD1 is the European version. Only difference was the color.

Here's a quote from tstites on Jan 5 when asked about the difference in the two.

"At this point, no substantial differences in the two units other than color scheme...ours will be all black with flames on the side. Just kidding about the flames, of course. I believe the HD1 will have a brushed aluminum front, but not absolutely certain."
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post #70 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I was told this pre-production model was at 99% of production model performance, but the implication was that the extra 1% would be worth it.

Any ideas at all what area this extra 1% relates to? Contrast improvement, brightness improvement, fan noise improvement etc?

Quote:


Production elements and components are in place at the factory awaiting the final go-ahead to begin production.

OK. On your mark...get set... GO!
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post #71 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I don't think you quoted him quite right. I think what he said was more along the lines of (and I am NOT quoting him verbatim):


That statement, though close to yours, is absolutely correct. No 3 panels can ever be aligned PERFECTLY, so a single panel design will always be sharper. How much sharper? That part is debatable...

Oh no....that was verbatim. Can never be "REMOTELY" as sharp. As was this other "definitive" statement:

"Perhaps the only advantage DLP still holds is it's IMHO (!!!) clearly and utterly superior definition, "perceived sharpness" and inter-pixel/intra-scene/ANSI contrast. That's probably the last thing DLP has going for it"

"clearly and utterly superior" being the operative phrase here. It's just that he hasn't even seen it yet but keeps hammering on this over and over.
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post #72 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:03 AM
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Cam Man - thanks for the excellent report. It is amazing to see all the reports from various folks seeing this pj at different shows and all findings are "Wow!".

Based on your observations and remarks about clarify and sharpness of the image - do you think it is safe to conclude at this point that the quality of the optics is very high, perhaps much more so than the Pearl/Ruby? As a camera guy I figure you have a great background to comment on this.

Also regarding the convergence - I think it is simply amazing that you say there was ZERO convergence issues. Just to clarify, are you saying that a cross hatch pattern that spanned the entire screen showed absolutely no color fringes at all when viewed up close at the screen? So it looked just like as if the pattern was being displayed by a single chip DLP? I'd expect at least a fraction of a pixel in various parts of the screen, so it sounds like JVC really has accomplished something amazing here.

Also I like what you said earlier about how essentially the RS1 is more than the sum of its parts. That's the feeling I've gotten all along and its great to hear you got that impression first hand.
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post #73 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Any ideas at all what area this extra 1% relates to? Contrast improvement, brightness improvement, fan noise improvement etc?



OK. On your mark...get set... GO!

Speculation of coarse, but the 1% extra on the RS1 could be the implementing of the vertcal stretch. JVC obviously knows how much this would be appreciated amongst alot of people at AVS.

?. Do you or anyone know how many of these can they pump out in one day?
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post #74 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:10 AM
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I seriously doubt that production units will have convergence as good as the one you saw, Cam Man! I bet they tweaked the convergence on that unit just for the show.

Good review.
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post #75 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:11 AM
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Thanks...for some strange reason I thought you were talking about the price diff between an hd1 and rs1. I'm already on rs1 pre order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I don't want to break forum rules about pricing. Give a call to AVS - that's where I do all of my projector business. And as not to break any rules I'll just give %'s... the pre-order price of the Sony Pearl that I had for about two weeks (before deciding to wait and see how things shook out) was 11% less than the pre-order price for the RS1 (which I have ordered...much like everyone else ). Now I'm not sure if those deals are all still around - just give AVS a call.

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post #76 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevils View Post

Thanks...for some strange reason I thought you were talking about the price diff between an hd1 and rs1. I'm already on rs1 pre order.

I thought so too - glad to have the clarification.
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post #77 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

I seriously doubt that production units will have convergence as good as the one you saw, Cam Man! I bet they tweaked the convergence on that unit just for the show.

Good review.

I hope we're wrong, but those were my thoughts as well.
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post #78 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlllava View Post

Unlike many here, I am not an expert (real or imagined ) at front projection and am looking for my first projector for my first theater. I came to CES to find out what the best projector for me is without all the hype and flame wars. The RS-1 floored me.

Taking a step back, I spent quite a long time on day one of CES looking at the Panasonic 1000U and the BenQ W1000 (shown at the DLP booth). I was somewhat torn between these projectors as the BenQ popped a little more but was $2000 more (MAP). Also, the screens and rooms that I saw them in were different enough that they could have been the difference I was perceiving.

I then saw a Pearl in the SV Sound suite while listening to subs. (I ignored the picture at first as I was there for the sound.) The Pearl had a really nice picture and the demo benefited from much better light control over what I saw on the floor.

Then I went over to Ceasars to see the RS-1. It was on a (110" ?) ST130 screen in a dark room but with white walls. The picture blew me away. A scene from Too Fast Too Furious was outside at a mansion and was mostly bright with vivid colors. However, you could still see details in the dark areas of the foliage. Amazing. We then moved on to U571 to the screen when they take over the U2. The black level was stunning.

As if I hadn't already been sold, I then sneaked into the invitation only area down stairs where they were showing an HD1 (consumer version) vs. the Pearl. This was in a totally dark room with black velvet "walls" on two 120" ST 130 screens. The black level advantage of the JVC was obvious, especially when showing the clip title which was white letters on a black background. The Sony background was grey compared to the almost black background of the JVC. Also, the white text was not as white on the Pearl. One scene had the WB company logo on a CGI door knocker as part of a very dark brown door. The JVC showed very good detail on the knocker with brighter whites and more dark detail. The total effect made the knocker much more 3D compared to the flatter, less detailed look of the Pearl. The longer I stayed, the more I could see how the JVC trashed the Pearl. (And I think the Pearl looks dammed good.)

A few more details... The RS-1 upstairs was running in low lamp mode and was set to "normal". We changed this to (cinema?) and saw very little difference in the brightness or contrast but a small shift in color temp. The projector was quite! JVC claims 25db but I can tell you that the thing was three feet behind me at ear level and I had to pay attention to hear the fan. The volum on the clips was down low so as not to take away from the picture. A rep there measured the picture at 18 ftlb which he thought was too bright but I enjoyed. He said that the bulb had around 25 hours on it. Jim Faiman, JVC VP for Buisness Development, also demonstrated the response time of the LCD using the WinXP "Star Field" screen saver. He pointed out that just as the stars are about to leave the screen, they speed up. XP does this by skipping pixels. On the JVC, this was clear. Mr. Faiman explained that on projectors with slow refresh rates (slower LCD pannels), the stars will look like a blur rather than as a sequence of pixels. You kind of had to see it.

So, I'm no expert and I'm not going to get into a debate over this technology vs. that one. I'm just a guy who found the perfect projector. Well, except for the fact that I'll have to wait until March or so to get it since I didn't pre-order it.

-Tom


I hate to be a party pooper, but how do we know the Pearl was accurately calibrated?
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post #79 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:33 AM
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Quote:


Oh no....that was verbatim. Can never be "REMOTELY" as sharp. As was this other "definitive" statement:

Ok, Ron, if your quote was verbatim, then there is plenty of subjectivity in it. The word "remotely" is highly debatable.
Quote:


"so a single panel design will always be sharper." <------------ Somewhat Wrong

Sorry, Chris, but that part of the statement is not "somewhat wrong". A single panel is in absolute fact sharper than ANY 3 panel design precisely because of the simple physics involved. No matter how well 3 panels are aligned, they can NEVER be perfectly aligned. I will agree that it might not be perceptible to the human eye, but it is still there.

By the same token you can also argue that no single chip design ever displays all three primary colors at the same time. It is physically impossible using a color wheel, but to what degree it can be seen by the human eye varies from one person to the next.
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post #80 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex512 View Post

Do you or anyone know how many of these can they pump out in one day?

Not sure about raw numbers. But I did hear from various sources that JVC production lines are capable of pumping out a lot of volume. Speculation was that perhaps an initial smaller shipment would come in and then shortly thereafter shipments for the masses. I do not think we are looking at a PS3 style roll out where they will just come in in drips and drabs. This is all total speculation of course.
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post #81 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 10:58 AM
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I'm seeing the HD1 in the UK on the 17th. Seven days is just soooooooo long!

"Worth waiting for"
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post #82 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 11:18 AM
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Following some confusion re HD1 v RS1 discussion on the European board (www.avforums.com) I posted the following info there, that I thought I should share with our US friends as well...
************************************************

to the best of my knowledge the RS1 and HD1 are identical product when I checked with my colleagues (i.e. difference only cosmetic)

In US, JVC wanted 2 different models one for JVC Consumer Company and 1 for JVC PRO company as they cover different distribution channels.

Hence the colour change was introduced. I am fairly reliably informed that HD1 and RS1 are identical when they leave the factory. Now it maybe that RS1 is tweaked in port of entry in US. But can only speculate on this. My knowledge reaches only to HD1 /Europe I am afraid.

FYI, IN Europe both JVC Consumer and JVC PRO will carry HD1 only.

TRUST me the HD1 will deliver the same excellent performance as the RS1

...I think that this is a typical matter of our over excited US forum colleagues almost over analysing such new product.... I can't blame them of course, but I think that is all there is too it in the discussion between RS1 and HD1
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post #83 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 11:18 AM
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I think you are right about that, Max...but, I just missed the demo of the panel alignment feature in the menu. Maybe you saw this, Tryg or someone else?

Some more info is need by me on our evaluation of convergence. I was not there when a grid was put up. I evaluated this on movie titles. Might there have been some misalignment out there at the edges? Maybe so, but I couldn't detect any. Production quality we'll have to wait and see.

I inferred that the extra tweaks were going to be smaller things that contribute to the sum (contrast, a bit more refined D65 performance, maybe lumens, etc.).

Yes, I haven't mentioned the optics. They undoubtedly are very important...and MUST play a very important role with the sum of the level of performance we see. They must be quite good. The JVC guys didn't gloat on this, but emphasized that it was a very good lens. I certainly believe them upon seeing. In fact, it has me wondering how this projector may up the ante on anamorphic optical quality. Remember, none of what we saw yesterday used scaling and an anamorphic lens. I would not only be concerned about retaining/enhancing resolution, but not being detrimental to one of the projector's strongest features: blacks. Any significant optical refraction that would lift blacks would not be good. I do think that a good anamorphic will do as advertised, improve resolution and tweak up luminance a bit. Obviously, some testing necessary when they arrive. JVC will endorse the Panamorph U380 and Schneider lens for the RS1. They did have a U380 on static display...first time I've seen it. Wow, Shawn...what a gorgeous piece!
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post #84 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 11:22 AM
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Yeah, very cool to see continued consistency with the "Wow!" reviews. I just picked up a new HD Tivo and hooked it up to my trusty Panny 700. The Fiesta Bowl was stunning, in spite of the Panny's low contrast, poor color uniformity, aging bulb, dust blobs, grayish blacks, etc - I can only imagine how great it will look with this beauty. More happy than ever that I got on the pre-order list.

-tony
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post #85 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Sorry, Chris, but that part of the statement is not "somewhat wrong". A single panel is in absolute fact sharper than ANY 3 panel design precisely because of the simple physics involved. No matter how well 3 panels are aligned, they can NEVER be perfectly aligned. I will agree that it might not be perceptible to the human eye, but it is still there.

The panel might be sharper but the projector might not be. It's quite possible that chromatic abberation is greater than panel misconvergence resulting in a sharper image out of a three-panel projector than a one-panel projector. There are probably lots of other things a manufacturer can get wrong that lead to a perceived loss of image sharpness. A lot comes down to quality of optics, quality of electronics, and overall design (as I know you know).

Of course, I'm not talking about any SPECIFIC projectors here, just saying that making any blanket statement is probably wrong.
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post #86 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

P.S.-Strangest thing seen at JVC was a 2.35 RPTV prototype.

This is intriguing. If it uses a native 2.35 chip, this has lots of implications for front projectors. Rather than go off topic here, could you start another thread on this?

Thanks,
I-Liang
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post #87 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 11:44 AM
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I have seen it as well, at IFA in Berlin at JVC special private demo room
At that time still top secret, it awesome, using the HD-ILA rear projection technology.

Of course not great to watch off-air b'cast on but still for the real movie buff a mouthwatering product

I may be able to share some more of it after our European dealer meeting in Athens at the end of this month....but agree a separate thread is needed
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post #88 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Ok, Ron, if your quote was verbatim, then there is plenty of subjectivity in it. The word "remotely" is highly debatable.

Sorry, Chris, but that part of the statement is not "somewhat wrong". A single panel is in absolute fact sharper than ANY 3 panel design precisely because of the simple physics involved. No matter how well 3 panels are aligned, they can NEVER be perfectly aligned. I will agree that it might not be perceptible to the human eye, but it is still there.

By the same token you can also argue that no single chip design ever displays all three primary colors at the same time. It is physically impossible using a color wheel, but to what degree it can be seen by the human eye varies from one person to the next.

Sorry,

sure it's highly subjective. I used the term "IMHO" a several times just for that matter. The term "remotely" is based on the highly subjective opinion of my girlfriend, who sadly is really quite ignorant concerning "HT matters" in general, who nevertheless managed to spot a "clear and very obvious" SUBJECTIVE difference in "perceived=subjective sharpness" between our RUBY (and the Qualia we had the pleasure to evaluate for some hours) and even our good old Sharp Z10k (which was my second DLP, sold it 3 years ago) within 10 seconds of looking at a pristine source like our HTPC desktop with 1:1 pixel mapping, let alone the 20k we have at home right now. If she manages to clearly appreciate the difference on a highly subjective level of course within 10 seconds (switching from an old 1chip DLP to the Ruby, switching it on, booting the HTPC, she says:"What happened to the picture? It is all blurry now") I subjectively rate the difference in perceived sharpness WITH PRISTINE SOURCES not anywhere near of being subtle between Lcos and DLP (granted that the JVC is a new breed of Lcos). Therefor I subjectively considered "not remotely" to be the right term. No offence. It is all IMHO obviously.

There is FAR more to DLP's advantage in definition, MTF and "perceived sharpness" than just the lack of "3-panel misconvergence" - I know, I know - the broken record again. Sorry.

Everything is subjective - isn't it? "Perceived sharpness" depends on so many factors - source material, distance from the screen, even brightness has an impact (which is generally a strong point of the JVC -> therefor in a head-to-head with a Pearl it will always appear "somewhat" sharper and more revealing because of the increased ft/l on the screen) as has a cherry-picked demo unit with reportedly "perfect convergence" - how many of us will have the pleasure of getting such an excellent unit remains to be seen.

I know, I know - the broken record again. I'll shut up. Sorry for disturbing just another HD-1 thread full of rejoicing.

(I'm off. My girlfriend wants to have a word with me about this "ignorance" comment of mine...)
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post #89 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 12:01 PM
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(I'm off. My girlfriend wants to have a word with me about this "ignorant" comment...)

Is this a variant of WAF? I got spanked for staying up so late typing here last night.

The 2.35 RPTV was in the "no photo or video" room. I have no idea if there was a native 2.35 panel. Intriquing. I recommend someone else launch a thread, as I have no info.
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post #90 of 315 Old 01-10-2007, 12:03 PM
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I don't doubt that the statements by The Lion and others are true regarding this, but...after seeing these projectors I would forward two things; one objective, and one subjective. First, I think that the difference in resolution between that delivered by panel alignment at the level that is demonstrated by JVC with the RS1/HD-1 at CES and single panel DMD may be moot based on 20/20 visual acuity and the screen sizes in question. (edit: I see Chris just made the same point above). At IMAX size/subtended viewing angles, maybe it is a significant factor. But the differences are so minute at to render them inconsequential unless you have incredible vision...which may be a curse in this case, a blessing if you are a fighter pilot. Yesterday, we could find zero panel misalignment on the RS1 with our MK II eyeballs at any distance from the screen.

Cam Man, thanks for the report! It jives with everything that I saw in the RS1 at the Expo. I still don't understand how some people can say that 1080p LCOS is not sharp! The RS1 resolves 1080p source material exceedingly well. The 300 ANSI contrast number is encouraging because the initial measurements we've seen are in the 250 range. Tom Stites has said that 300-350:1 ANSI is what they have measured at the factory so perhaps there is some more QC going on to realize these higher ANSI numbers. As it stands now the RS1 delivers similar ANSI to SXRD, but if they could deliver the 300-350:1 range it would push it out to territory we've never seen from LCOS before.
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